Iberia Changes I Would Like to See

[Gouda_boy]

As when every patch is nearly completed, many people want their ideas for future patches to be, and every time I think, "well everyone else is doing it" so here are some possible changes I think would vastly improve the Iberian Peninsula.

Sorry, these provinces are on the Orbis Terrarum Map (For accuracy purposes), but the map is still close enough.

This is from my personal Project. It's largely based on current provinces and the areas somewhat follow Spain's autonomous communities as well, though I know using modern provinces for a game in the medieval ages is not exactly the devs' first pick. I just think it adds a good amount of province density

For the purpose of Vanilla, Plasencia, Merida, Tudela, Alava, and the other Belearic Islands could all be considered "Optional"

Spanish/Arabic(Andalucian)/Roman
Huelva/Walbah/Onoba - Not much to say about Huelva, but it was a fairly important town ever since the Pheonicians, producing Copper. Drylands or Grasslands

Valladolid/[Balad] Al-walid/... - Quite an important city. Was occasionally the capital of Spain, Isabella and Ferdinand were married here, Columbus died here. It maintained many privileges as a city throughout the middle ages. Should produce wine (several wine regions exist around Vallodolid). Grasslands

Zamora/Azemur/Ocellodurum - A strategically important city during the 12-13th centuries, and held onto its importance after the Christians began reconquering further south. The site of plenty of fights throughout earlier centuries. Because of this, it was a heavily fortified city. It might be plausible to grant Zamora a fort. Zamora should produce Livestock. Highlands

A Coruña/Kwaruna/Brigantium - Renamed from Galicia as it is split. English is Corunna

Pontevedra/Bontifidra/Pontus Vetera - A commercial hub since the 12th century (peaked later in the 1400s), and one the largest centers in Galicia. Produces Fish. Woods or Hills terrain.

Lugo/Iughu/Lucus Augusti - Not much is said for the 1400s or past that, but it was "insignifcant" in the 11th century, but I assume it grew again over the course of a few centuries, as it was a pilgrimage site and held some rights. Could be under the influence of the clergy Estate. Could produce Gold, Iron, or Naval Supplies (Or even paper) Woods or Hills Terrain

Guadalajara/Wadi Al-Hajara/Caracca - Significant city for the Moors (So re-recnquista stuff) and the House of Mendoza was "prominent" in the city (According to Wikipedia, now a more reliable source of information). Was granted city status by King Heny IV. Could be under the Noble Estate, and be producing cloth or wool. Highlands

Segovia/Siqubiyyah/Segovia - Segovia is an important city along trade routes through Spain, and was an important city for cloth. It was quite large during the 15th and 16th centuries (What city is the province of Castilla la vieja for). As such, Segovia should produce cloth. Grasslands

Avila/Abila/Abela - As with most cities in Spain, Avila grew very prosperous through the 14 and 1500s and had importance in the early times of eu4. Fortified town (So a fort), with an unknown trade good. Highlands

Albacete/Al-Basit/None - Non-existent during Roman Times, Albacete grew quickly during the 14th and 15th centuries becoming an important stop between Central and east Spain. Due to the importance of agriculture in the region, grain should be produced here. Grasslands terrain as the surrounding regeion was known for being flat.

Castellón/Fadrell/Unknown - Nothing much to this town, but Aragon needs something...

Braga/.../Bracara - Is the seat of the oldest Archbishopric in portugal and used to be a seat of the Portuguese court. Wikipedia does not have a lot... Unknown production in hills terrain. Under influence of the Clergy Estate.

Setúbal/Shetubar/English:Saint Ubes/French:Saint Yves - Nothing to go on with this one (Thanks Wikipedia), however drylands, while producing fish.

Málaga/Malaqah/Malaca - As one the oldest and largest cities in Iberia (and the world) Malaga has held importance over Millenium and was an especially important port city for Granada. Could either produce Salt or Wine in highlands terrain (Wine if the trade good includes other fruits and nuts, if not, need another trade good that covers such foods).

1.I also recommend splitting the Canarais into two, Las Palmas and Tenerife with a strait connecting them.

2.REMOVE Labourd from Iberia... I'm suprised you still kept Labourd in Vasconia for 1.25, but either way, this has to move to the french region.

Whenever Iberia gets a Patch or DLC, The Maghreb will need to be included. Need to, Need to include the Maghreb.

 

[Mingmung]

There is still room for Rioja (with Logrono as capital), Mérida and maybe Segovia on that map. Just some provinces I think could be important enough, out of my head, there are probably much more options.

 

[navaluiki]

I get your point, but the historical province of Sevilla bordered Portugal (it was pretty big) and the borders between Castille and Portugal are usually quite peaceful within the game, aren't they? Antequera is just a little bit more important than Aracena or Banda Gallega, I think.


https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...stilla-spain-with-data-and-documents.1091877/
It was the second map-suggestion in the thread above and has been discussed there, too.

It is true that Castille and Portugal are usually very friendly but I think it should be there.
Perhaps that regions wasn't that populated, but that does not mean it wasn't very important. There are a ton of castles there because it was an important borde region. There has also been a heavy mining activity there for the last 3000 years and some of the most important Castilian ports were there (including the one where Columbus set up his first travel to the Americas). I think it has the right to be a province.

 

[Mingmung]

It is true that Castille and Portugal are usually very friendly but I think it should be there.
Perhaps that regions wasn't that populated, but that does not mean it wasn't very important. There are a ton of castles there because it was an important borde region. There has also been a heavy mining activity there for the last 3000 years and some of the most important Castilian ports were there (including the one where Columbus set up his first travel to the Americas). I think it has the right to be a province.

Well, a case might be made for Huelva; but it should start with like 4-5 development then. So, we still get around 30 provinces for Castille which have a proper historical background.

It seems my major gripe is with the proposition for Portugal, as some choices make zero sense and I don't think that Portugal needs as much extra provinces as Castille does (at least 1, max 3, I guess).

A point about Aragon:
- Pirineo should be named Huesca (its city), as we already have a Pyrenees wasteland.
- Urgell should be named after its biggest city; Lleida (Lerida), as the county of Urgell didn't really exist within the game's timeframe anymore until the modern administrative division got the name again. Naming provinces after cities is a trend, anyways. (which should be followed if other names just don't fit, as is the case here)

 

[navaluiki]

Well, a case might be made for Huelva; but it should start with like 4-5 development then.

It seems my major gripe is with the proposition for Portugal.

A point about Aragon:
- Pirineo should be named Huesca (it's city), as we already have a Pyrenees wasteland.
- Urgell should be named after its biggest city; Lleida (Lerida), as the county of Urgell didn't really exist within the game's timeframe anymore.

Yes, 4-5 development for Huelva is fine. Regarding the name, I'm not sure which one fits the most, I personally like Aracena, at it was one the mayor population centers and it's also the name of the range that covers like half of the region.
But Huelva, Palos, Moguer or Niebla are fine for me too.

 

[Mingmung]

Yes, 4-5 development for Huelva is fine. Regarding the name, I'm not sure which one fits the most, I personally like Aracena, at it was one the mayor population centers and it's also the name of the range that covers like half of the region.
But Huelva, Palos, Moguer or Niebla are fine for me too.

I wouldn't mind Aracena, at all.

 

[Gouda_boy]

Bumping this thread, because I don't 100% agree with the chosen provinces.

As the OP says; this setup is mostly based off modern provinces and autonomous regions. Modern ones, not historical ones. EU4 should try to adhere to historical borders, not to modern ones.

Questionable province-choices because of this decision:
- Braga: Was not important between the 13th and 15th century. Only grew in importance later in the game after some renovations. Could be used if you really want 10+ provinces for Portugal.
- Guarda: Quite unimportant within the timeframe. Could be used if you really want 10+ provinces for Portugal.
- (Castelo) Branco: Only gained city-rights in 1771.
- Setúbal: Its borders are 100% based off modern ones.
- Baixo: Its entire name is based off a modern province, not even one within the timeframe of EU4. Why would you rename Beja?
- Pontevedra: Why include this province while you have Santiago de Compostela nearby? One of the most important pilgrimage-sites for catholicism?
- Huelva: Was nothing more than a small province. Antequera would be a much better choice if you split Seville. Just up the development if Huelva's rise has to be reflected in the game.
- Albacete: Same as with Huelva; it was still a very small village. Just up the development of its surroundings if Albacete's rise has to be reflected in the game.
- Ciudad: La Mancha is a much better name, as its both a historic and geographical term. Ciudad just means city.

I miss provinces like Antequera or Santiago. Santarem is also a much better addition to Portugal if you want to add more provinces.

I mean no offensive to the OP, but provinces should be based on history first and foremost and Iberia has enough historical towns and provinces for an overhaul without having the need to look at modern administrative divisions.

Reading through this and the following comments, I see you still have issues with Portugal. This came from my personal project and I should correct some of my errors, as well your errors.
- Braga may have lost importance throughout the 1200s 1300s, but it however still held a lot of historical importance, thus why I originally included it. Also the map I made starts at 1300, when Braga had much more significance. But it could do to not exist

- Yes, I know Guarda wasn't all that necessary, I just wanted some more PD

- I realize Castelo Branco was a poor choice, as for some reason I replaced Beiras/Viseu.

- Setúbal - Lisboa was quite large and I wanted to split it somehow, but I see that Santerém is a much better choice, so I would add Santerém instead

- Baixo - Again, this is just what I named the province for my personal project, I didn't mean to suggest renaming Beja. Oops!

- Pontevedra - This one was a Toss-up for me, as there are quite a few historically significant cities throughout all of Galicia, I wouldn't mind Santiago de Compostela being the city instead. I personally chose Pontevedra as it was further away from A Coruña, thus giving more room for a province.

- Huelva - Ya'll discussed it already

- Albacete - I still think it could be a 4-5 dev province,then an event or two to reflect its growth throughout the timeframe

- Ciudad - I believe I stated in an older post that having the province named Ciudad Real would likely be best, as La Mancha covered much more land than the province suggests, thus I made it into the area (Sorry, I know you don't like modern, but the area reflects the Castilla-La Mancha Autonomous Community)

- On the later mentioned provinces of Pirineo and Urgell, after doing a little bit of looking, I completely agree it would be better to rename the provinces

Lastly, I have a Gripe with Mattymooz's Map, due to how his states are made. Though the provinces he added maintain historicity, the ensuing states/areas are lacking. Cuenca is in Aragón, La Mancha is part of Andalusia, and the way the Andalusian states are splitting Granada's Capital state is a little much.

 

[Mingmung]

La Mancha was also an administrative region, so it should really keep the name, I think.

Also, don't worry too much about the distribution of areas; it's more of a gameplay-thing than a reflection of history.

Otherwise, agreed.

 

[BalticM]

Questionable province-choices because of this decision:
- Braga: Was not important between the 13th and 15th century. Only grew in importance later in the game after some renovations. Could be used if you really want 10+ provinces for Portugal.

This is awful comment about Braga
Braga is the oldest city in Portugal. At game start it should be among largest and most important towns in Portugal and its influence only to decline when Age of Discovery begins.

 

[Barón Rojo]

Here's mattymooz setup so people can see:

I'd prefer the province density of OP, but yes using that map mattymooz used to create these provinces could be an idea.[/SPOILER]

Things horrible on this map:

Antequera reaching to Extremadura, when it is bordering Granada. What's the point of adding Antequera when you would add Ronda as a fort province for Granada?

Going from Zaragoza to Catalonia forces you to go through Teruel or Huesca, which has zero sense.

On a side note, people who are not knowledgeable about one country and must do "a little bit of looking" to Wikipedia should not propose a map about it.

 

[Mingmung]

This is awful comment about Braga
Braga is the oldest city in Portugal. At game start it should be among largest and most important towns in Portugal and its influence only to decline when Age of Discovery begins.

Well, no offense, but I didn't find much about it on the internet in terms of importance during EU4's timeframe. So, find me a source and I'll definetely believe you.

Yes, it is one of the oldest and holiest cities of Portugal, but it also had some renovations later during EU4's timeframe. It's also quite close to Porto, so that's why it doesn't make much sense to include it on the map. Especially not if we follow provincial borders. As we'd end up with two very small provinces then.

Anyway, I'll post my own version of an Iberian map tomorrow.

@Barón Rojo That's quite a degrading thing to say. You can easily see that more than some Wikipedia-looking went into that map. Your points are valid, but quite minor. Maps like these are not just carbon-copies, but also for gameplay. @Mattymooz has experience as a modder, so that counts, too.

 

[omar44]

I made a file with Andalusian names of most of current Spanish provinces.

 

[navaluiki]

Good to see this thread is up again.
After having started to play Crusader Kings, I have a few more province ideas.
Aragon could have a 4th province, Calatayud, it used to be one of the largest cities in Aragon and had a significant role in the History of Spain.
Plasencia in in northern Extremadura was very important. Even at the 19th Century it was almost as important as Caceres. That city was also key to creating the region of Extremadura.
Other potential provinces that I think could be added are Castellon, Zamora, Antequera, Huelva (perhaps as Niebla or Aracena, that were considerably important at the time), Malaga ( I still don't understant why it isn't in the game yet), Avila and Segovia (quite important during Eu4 timeframe).
Galicia should also be splitted in at least 3 or 4 provinces (it was the second most populous region in Spain, only after Andalusia)

 

[BalticM]

Well, no offense, but I didn't find much about it on the internet in terms of importance during EU4's timeframe. So, find me a source and I'll definetely believe you.

Archdiocese of Braga was and still is the most important in Portugal, this single reason should be enough to make province important.
Regarding size - province would be of size of any casual province in Germany.
Regarding development, Braga & Porto provinces even after split should be among highest development provinces in Portugal since that area is the most populous area in Portugal since Middle Ages.

Overall this map is fairly good for potential provinces in Portugal. It is administrative divisions of 1936, but provinces were created according natural geographical boundaries in Portugal. I wouldn't say that it can't be valid for 15th century.

3 states could be created:

Douro

• Porto
• Braga
• Braganca

Beira

• Lisboa
• Santarem
• Coimbra
• Viseu
• Castelo Branco (or Leiria)

Alentejo

• Evora
• Beja
• Faro

Regarding Castelo Branco, I recall suggestion (can't find it) made by Portuguese user who suggested Castelo Branco province and explained that there was strategical fortress, one of the most important in Portugal, and province should contain fort. I don't know much about it, but I wouldn't call Castelo Branco insignificant right away.
Yet my own suggestion would be to make Leiria province instead of Castelo Branco as I would think that Portugal needs more coastal provinces.

11 provinces for Portugal can't be too many, no way. Ireland which is smaller and was less populous / less significant has 13 now!

 

[Mingmung]

Archdiocese of Braga was and still is the most important in Portugal, this single reason should be enough to make province important.
Regarding size - province would be of size of any casual province in Germany.
Regarding development, Braga & Porto provinces even after split should be among highest development provinces in Portugal since that area is the most populous area in Portugal since Middle Ages.

View attachment 407331
Overall this map is fairly good for potential provinces in Portugal. It is administrative divisions of 1936, but provinces were created according natural geographical boundaries in Portugal. I wouldn't say that it can't be valid for 15th century.

3 states could be created:

Douro

• Porto
• Braga
• Braganca

Beira

• Lisboa
• Santarem
• Coimbra
• Viseu
• Castelo Branco (or Leiria)

Alentejo

• Evora
• Beja
• Faro

Regarding Castelo Branco, I recall suggestion (can't find it) made by Portuguese user who suggested Castelo Branco province and explained that there was strategical fortress, one of the most important in Portugal, and province should contain fort. I don't know much about it, but I wouldn't call Castelo Branco insignificant right away.
Yet my own suggestion would be to make Leiria province instead of Castelo Branco as I would think that Portugal needs more coastal provinces.

11 provinces for Portugal can't be too many, no way. Ireland which is smaller and was less populous / less significant has 13 now!

I put Guarda in my own suggestion, because of fortesses there and adminustrative divisions. I guess that Braga is arguable for implementation. It really depends how many provinces should be put in Portugal.

Administrative divisions from the 15th century should be followed first, though. Otherwise, I agree with the rest you've said.

 

[Brima]

I made a file with Andalusian names of most of current Spanish provinces.

Few comments here :

"Navarra = Banbalūnah (Pamplona, not sure if Andalusian name or just Arabic spelling)" --> it really corresponds to the modern transcript of the city name in arabic. Same for "
Teruel = Tīrwāl / Tayrawāl", so it is probable that it might be your second hypothesis.

For "Santa Cruz de Tenerife = al Jazā'ir al-Khālidāt (Canary Islands)", you could get rid of the "al jaza'ir" part (which basically means the islands, the game doesnt say "the baleares islands"). Keep it though for the andalusian name of the baleares, as it means "the eastern isles", so you need the island part.

Also, i am quite sceptical about the name for santiago. Shant Yaqub is the arabic transcription of the name of the city in latin and it seems a bit weird that it should be the name used by the Arabs in the region during the middle ages...

What method did you use to find these names? I used to have access to a history book about the moorish conquest of southern france, but the only names I am able to recall are 'arbuna for Narbonne and Qarqashuna for Carcassonne...

Anyway, if you are thinking of completing your work, I created a special thread for improvement of the dynamic names : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...es-according-to-their-owners-culture.1115636/

 

[Brima]

Small note also relative to the castillian events that need fixing : I always thought incoherent that the reconquista events that drive the Moors outside of Spain don't include loss of province development, despite the fact that the fall of Granada basically provoked that.

 

[Atilla 'The Hun']

Apart from the map proposition, I would also like to see the Iberians getting some unique flavors regarding their armies. Especially Portugal and Spain with their Tercio's.

 

[mathuser]

Jaen is geographically part of Upper Andalusia, so it should probably be part of that state.

And wasn't there a Catholic monarchy unique government suggestion somewhere? That could be a nice addition to Iberia.

Here's mattymooz setup so people can see:

I'd prefer the province density of OP, but yes using that map mattymooz used to create these provinces could be an idea.

Spoiler: mattymooz source maps

For this setup, the border for Seville should shift to the east. One reason is that Seville is on the east side of the Guadalquivir River. Also, it could border Cordoba since Cordoba is on the Guadalquivir River and is connected by both road and river to Seville, so having the provinces border each other directly may be a better representation. And looking at the source maps, Antequera's influence may not stretch as far as the suggestion would show.

Alternatively, the the suggested province of Antequera could just be changed to Carmona since Carmona lies directly in between Seville and Cordoba.


For the suggestion in the OP, Huelva was part of the County of Niebla at the time, known as El Condado. It's a region that can be viewed in historical maps and it contains one of Spain's wine regions. Much of the region was under the Duke of Medina Sidonia, one the most important aristocratic magnate families in Spain, and their affiliated families.

Plus, here is a graphic representation of Seville during the 1750 census:

Spoiler: Señoríos del Reino de Sevilla

Much of the royally held lands are east of the Guadalquivir while nobles held much of the land west of the Guadalquivir under lordships.

So, Huelva could be changed to be Niebla to represent the historical region (like in CK2) while having wine as the trade good.

Well, I hope Paradox makes some changes soon since we're getting European changes. And keep up the good work.

 

[omar44]

Few comments here :

"Navarra = Banbalūnah (Pamplona, not sure if Andalusian name or just Arabic spelling)" --> it really corresponds to the modern transcript of the city name in arabic. Same for "
Teruel = Tīrwāl / Tayrawāl", so it is probable that it might be your second hypothesis.

For "Santa Cruz de Tenerife = al Jazā'ir al-Khālidāt (Canary Islands)", you could get rid of the "al jaza'ir" part (which basically means the islands, the game doesnt say "the baleares islands"). Keep it though for the andalusian name of the baleares, as it means "the eastern isles", so you need the island part.

Also, i am quite sceptical about the name for santiago. Shant Yaqub is the arabic transcription of the name of the city in latin and it seems a bit weird that it should be the name used by the Arabs in the region during the middle ages...

What method did you use to find these names? I used to have access to a history book about the moorish conquest of southern france, but the only names I am able to recall are 'arbuna for Narbonne and Qarqashuna for Carcassonne...

Anyway, if you are thinking of completing your work, I created a special thread for improvement of the dynamic names : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...es-according-to-their-owners-culture.1115636/

It was just a lazy 30 min effort in the Arabic version of Wikipedia, I should've researched more outside Wiki and included Portugal and southern France too.
I added a translation of Pamplona and Teruel there because they seemed convincing enough. Pamplona was spelled بنبلونة instead of بامبلونا. If I saw the latter I would've been sure it was the modern transcript of the city's name.
As for "Shant Ya'qûb" I noticed that PDX uses that name for Galicia so I looked it up on Wikipedia and found an account on Almanzor's page about his army mobilizing towards the city and sacking it before reaching Qarjîtah (La Coruña), there was also a map showing the directions of his campaigns where you can find also "Shant Ishtîban" (San Esteban de Gormaz).

 

[Yevardian]

I think Iberia should be reduced to 5 provinces, one for Portugal, Castille, Aragon, Navarre and Granada respectively. Would definitely improve performance and encourage more colonisation.