Ideas for new DLCs and improvements

[elvain]

3. A revised education system where heirs cannot get more than +6 [the second best option] unless they attend a university. Or unless you are quick of shrewd. Universities can already be built as a holding. And a professor title could be granted to characters with high learning or have scholar, erudite, theologian, mystic or any other intriguing trait. These are all part of an international college of professors. You can get guest-professors who offer to research for you in your universities or you can send professors abroad. You can get request from foreign rulers to have their heirs study in your university. Or you can send yours to a foreign one, choosing between whether you want to study War and strategy, administration or philosophy and theology. Then there's events related to this such as making friends, lovers, rivals, diplomatic conflicts when your drunkard heir beat up a foreign crown prince etc. More on this here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-schooling-system-universities.1109583/

I like this. It is somehow similar to a system I proposed a while ago. I think it would be nice enhancement of the game and could open new ways to improve technology of the realm and could potentialy open a whole new sphere - to play/interact with scholars, which can...
1) give us very interesting developments with clergy in general (in all main Western religions)
2) With Reaper's Due the medical aspect can be increased - you could attract and/or export medical experts and spread your influence this way (you could use them as your agents for instance)
etc.

I don't like this idea. It strikes me as a terribly modern view of how universities work and what they're for. Medieval and early modern universities were institutions run by the clergy, primarily for the training of new members. Medieval nobility may have sent younger sons they intended to pursue a career in the Church, but the university curriculum did not include the martial training that defined the secular aristocracy and therefore would not have been a good place to send heirs.

You are right that Universities were definitely not institutions which served as academies for young aristocrats. OTOH there were numerous cases when rulers tried to attract great minds of their time and universities (and other scholarly institutions) are perfect game tool to simulate this phenomenon.

No, they were also for studying judicial, medical, phisophical and literary subjects, besides theological ones.

exactly! Yes

Yes, and...? Medieval clergymen did a lot more than preach and argue about what angel sweat tastes like. Learning about those disciplines made perfect sense for those who wished to be bishops, deacons, or even just clerks.

Of course, not everyone who went to university ended up a priest, but the fact remains their purpose wasn't to train future lords, and the traits valued most by the nobility were not the ones cultivated in universities.

This is true, but as I mentioned above, some of the scholars worked with old works from Antiquity which, among other things, sometimes also studied arts of military strategy and other arts which were appreciated among the nobles. We know that before the Late medieval period, West European scholarship was domain of monasteries rather than universities and if there were scholars participating on young nobles' education, it was various abbots or monks etc. but...

So far this discussion was purely about the catholic West. But elswhere, there were also institutions. I'm not sure about Byzantine world, where I would expect some sort of academies for bureaucracy, at least in the early stages of the empire before its gradual feudalization. Then there is the islamic world, which had its own scholarly institutions to serve both regligious studies and propaganda (al-Azhar from 10th century) or studies of theology and law (al-Qarawiyin madrasa founded in Fez already in the 9th century), or to connect religious and legal studies with medicine, mathematics and other arts in order to build educated class of state-bureaucrats through system of Madrasas, called Nizamiyas in the late 11th century's Persia and Iraq under Seljuk empire.

There could be a tool / mechanic to simulate potential education of young nobles and I suggested it while ago here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nd-enhanced-islam.905195/page-7#post-20755732
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The madrasas and universities

Madrasas should mean what they were in middle ages - instead of meaning ordinary shools they would be high profile islamic schools.
They would be allowed if Legalism and Church/religious infrastructure are at least on level 2.

Madrasa would be a structure which could be built only in cities in provinces with 5 or more holdings. The number of Madrasas would be however limited to max 1 per de-jure duchy and 5 per de-facto kingdom.
Then in the religious screen there would be a special window where all madrasas could be overviewed (not only those under player's rule, but also others. There one could overview the head of each madrasa (mudarris) and his 2 assistents (mu'ids - 1 mu'id) and the focus of said Madrasa.

Usualy the Mudarris (the head of Madrasa) is appointed by the ruler. He (the ruler) can invite any muslim from the entire islamic world (just like the brides are chosen) to this seat, he only needs the scholar to agree. The assistents (mu'ids) are chosen by the AI from among muslim clerics and judges (qadis) in the realm.

Focus of Madrasa
Each madrasa has focus on one of various scholarly areas

• islamic law (fiqh) - is tied to bonuses in learning, stewardship and legalism and majesty technologies
• exegesis of the Qur'an (tafsir) / philosophy - tied to bonuses in learning and piety and religious customs
• mathematics - tied to bonuses in stewardship and economic technologies
• medicine - bonuses in learning and stewardship and tolerance and military organization technologies
• art of war - bonuses in martial skills and military technologies
• rhetoric - bonuses in diplomacy, noble customs and majesty

Each of the focuses has several event chains tied to the particular type and depending on the character traits of the mudarris. For instance the legal focus will trigger various legal issues with interpretations of the law in various aspects between pure people and nobles, religious minorities, muslims travelling and dying abroad etc. - each of them triggering emotions among the religious class with impact on relations with various types of characters;
Exegesis and philosophy events would be connected to philosphical disputations and limits of knowledge - again influencing mainly piety and relations with religious characters versus technology advances.
Mathematics events would be connected to astronomic and other technical discoveries,
Medicine is IMHO uite obvious - limits of medicine research and problems it creates with religious class..
Rhetoric and art of war are IMHO also quite obvious - disputations on one hand and military advances on the other, each of them causing some possible misconducts.

Madrasa as tool for internal politics
The Madrasa will provide various bonuses to the ruler and/or his capital province depending on Madrasa's focus and traits of the Mudarris, as well as potential downsides.

Generaly, if the Mudarris is Mu'tazilite, the Madrasa adds technology bonuses, but combination of Mu'tazilite Mudarris and law, exegesis/philosophy or medicine causes all islamic clerics (except mu'tazilites) to dislike the ruler (normally -10 relations, in case of asharite cleric -20).
OTOH, if the Mudarris is asharite, the Madrasa gives nice piety and prestige bonuses (as well as it adds positive bonuses to all islamic clerics except mu'tazilites)

Madrasa as educational institution
Madrasa will of course work also as educational institution. It would be something between the old educational system and the new one introduced in conclave.
instead of guardian (or education focus, if you have Conclave) each youngling would be sent to some Madrasa and there he/she would learn focus and traits of the Mudarris.

Universities would be very similar with one tiny, but very important difference, which is the appointment of the university head - the rector, and the composition of his team (there would always be at least 3 deans (decanus). The ruler will have no influence on the person of the rector, who will be elected by the body of the deans (from among the deans and other clerics from within the realm).

Each madrasa and university may also have its own prestige (which will depend on the prestige, piety and technology points it provided to its province and it would make it more (or less) attractive for the scholars to accept leadership there.

There also might be some small difference between the schools in shiite and sunni islam, but that will be part of another chapter or discussion.
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[Gurkhal]

Along those lines, I was thinking I'd like a "chivalry" DLC that added orders of knighthood, fleshed-out tourneys, troubadours, courtly love, and the like. Maybe even a system to determine how good a knight your character is — mainly based on their martial ability, with their courtliness a secondary contributor — that has other characters react accordingly depending on whether they are nobility or clergy. Chivalry was a major element of High and Late Medieval culture and a key component of the warrior class' identity, so I find it a pity that it is mostly absent from the game.

Other than that, what I'd want most is a DLC that reworked Islam and the Muslim world at large, maybe also Orthodox Christianity while they're at it. Currently that's a huge and central part of the map, but rulers there enjoy bare bones mechanics compared to Catholics and pagans.

I'm with you!

In addition to this I would make these suggestions for inclusion into a "Rose and Sword" DLC which would flesh out the influences of courtliness and chivalry, both important aspects of the noble culture of, to my knowledge, Catholic Europe.

Beyond more events as can be inspired by medieval chansons, romance and the Matters of France and Britain, I would think that perhaps it could be possible to pick if you'd want to focus on courtliness or chivalry? Like that if you go with courtliness you get certain events and options, like courts of love and patronage of troubadours which will strenghten the tolerance and diplomatic skills of the character, while chivalry will provide other bonuses and on the other hand strengthen the martial skills of the character?

 

[Enriador]

"Don't add the Prophet Muhammad as a living character" would seem to be rather attractive.

I actually agree - as I have said a couple of times in this thread, simulating the rise of Muhammad is a bit too much work. I would start from the Rashidun period onwards.

I thought that "Yeah, sure, rewording that might be good." was something you were on board with

It's irrelevant. So irrelevant, in fact, that despite appearing several times over the course of most games, nobody ever complained about it.

the loss of the caliphates is because the current caliphs (if any) are viewed as having lost their authority with the loss of Mecca-Medina(-Jerusalem) and all the land nearby

The idea of Mecca/Medina being conquered and converted away from Islam can be seen as quite offensive if you bring the idea up in certain cicles. Yet, there has been zero negative reactions from Muslims towards it.

Sure, that exists

And nobody died due to it, nor did PDX realistically lose any sales.

Anyway, since earlier start dates have been confirmed to not be on the table, the situation isn't going to come up...

Accurate, but that's an old conclusion. What I challenge is the idea that Paradox avoids touching 7th century Arabia due to fear or terrorism or banishment by the OIC or another crazy theory people like to spread.

There are degrees of holiness

I suggest we don't go there. Holy is holy, one might argue.