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I don't necessarily agree with personal retinues tied to the estate for admin. governments. I also believe that disloyal theme governors could use double the influence the emperor paid to get the troops back if they have a higher level of influence than the emperor. And maybe some control problems occur in provinces that have their theme troops withdrawn.
 
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I think one of the things that can be done is apply a small per-regiment Influence surcharge on raising a Thematic army combined with rebalancing the Influence economy. This should be balanced around economy-of-scale, it should be cheaper to raise 5 regiments from one theme than raise 1 regiment from 5 themes. But having the total cost be a simple function of "base cost + number-of-MAA-Regiments * scaling factor" would keep this economy of scale while making the ability of the Emperor to call on the military more sensitive to changes in the Influence economy, which is something we'd want tightened up in any event.

Or you account for the fact that you can't just mobilise every theme's MAA but you need to actually keep forces stationed at different fronts to prevent a weakened frontier there.

Like a war facing Europe in the west doesn't mean it's a good idea to call up theme armies stationed on your eastern frontier in Asia like in Syria. You can do but that opens up opportunistic attacks on your now weakened eastern frontiers.
 
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I think one of the things that can be done is apply a small per-regiment Influence surcharge on raising a Thematic army combined with rebalancing the Influence economy. This should be balanced around economy-of-scale, it should be cheaper to raise 5 regiments from one theme than raise 1 regiment from 5 themes. But having the total cost be a simple function of "base cost + number-of-MAA-Regiments * scaling factor" would keep this economy of scale while making the ability of the Emperor to call on the military more sensitive to changes in the Influence economy, which is something we'd want tightened up in any event.
Dont you already pay influence for raising the MaA from another theme?
 
Or you account for the fact that you can't just mobilise every theme's MAA but you need to actually keep forces stationed at different fronts to prevent a weakened frontier there.

Like a war facing Europe in the west doesn't mean it's a good idea to call up theme armies stationed on your eastern frontier in Asia like in Syria. You can do but that opens up opportunistic attacks on your now weakened eastern frontiers.
The loyalty and disloyalty of a governor should play a role. Trying minimize the micromanaging here, but this should be important. And maybe the garrison size of themes whose troops are being used should be reduced, unless an internal peasant revolt is taking place. The AI, unfortunately, would be unable to take advantage of weakened fronts like a player can if this was implemented.
 
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The loyalty and disloyalty of a governor should play a role. Trying minimize the micromanaging here, but this should be important. And maybe the garrison size of themes whose troops are being used should be reduced, unless an internal peasant revolt is taking place. The AI, unfortunately, would be unable to take advantage of weakened fronts like a player can if this was implemented.

I think you still have to make it not play like feudal levies because admin title MAA is supposed to represent a more professional army.

Instead loyalty should more directly influence the odds of a revolt or rebellion. Maybe you have to worry about the Anatolian theme revolting if they see the emperor leading an army in Sicily and took the imperial tagma with him leaving Constantinople undefended...

An AI that can spot if regional troops have been called away on a campaign leaving a reduced garrison in some regions can do wonders in making warfare more of a challenge. You as the emperor have to decide how much of your army you're mobilising for a war and how many troops to remain behind in garrisons.
 
Stability Phases. I can think of three phases from the top of my head. Rise, Stability and Collapse. During collapse phase independence and dissolution factions should be allowed. Influence actions should be more expensive and infighting/schemes should be easier. Mercenaries made more expensive. Maybe even a debuff for the Emperor's armies.
These phases would circle depending on the obedience of the strategos, wars won/lost and competence of the emperor.




The Dynastic Cycle

Chinese history is traditionally ordered by the dynasty currently in power. This is a phenomenon that goes far back in time, where often a new dynasty would prioritize writing the history of their predecessors. They would use the imperial archives to chart out and describe how the old dynasty rose, how they ruled and how they eventually lost their way and succumbed to corruption (leaving an opening for the new dynasty to save the day and restore order and propriety).
In our timeline, the Tang, once a very successful and expansive dynasty that ruled a vast and prosperous realm, are already troubled by 867. About 40 years from this start date, their dynasty would break into a multi-factional civil war known as the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Era. Eventually the Song took power and built a new dynasty based even more strongly on the principles of bureaucracy and internal development.



View attachment 1303504





raf,360x360,075,t,fafafa:ca443f4786.jpg
 
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perhaps remove non-theme armies, for non-empire rulers, aside from perhaps house-guard and the like, to reduce the power of theme governors without investment into their theme army?
 
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Limit the expansion CBs a lot unless it's a frontier or naval theme. The ventures of strategoi to Cyrenaica and Egypt start to get a little stale after the 100th time.
 
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perhaps remove non-theme armies, for non-empire rulers, aside from perhaps house-guard and the like, to reduce the power of theme governors without investment into their theme army?
Eehh wouldn't this even further gimp tourmarches? Maybe just don't give rank bonus to the MAA limit for administrative vassals.
 
yeah but to be kinda honest, the admin governemnt is already trying to void tourmarches, to the point where i would almost remove them from admin entirely, so admin can always hold all counties which seems more intended, considering how admin flavour and content is effectively duchy up
 
it also would allow for penalties to many-duchy holding governors, as if the number of counties is too high, then they see the domain limit de-buffs appear, and there is no way to avoid it, aside from giving away duchys
 
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My suggestions would be remove the conquest cb admin empires get, adding it always struck me as an odd choice by the devs. Not sure what the point is other than allowing the player to blob like crazy. It’s bad because it alllow the Byzantines to conquer Muslim territory without a holy war. Meaning they face less resistance than they should.

Further I think the recently mentioned Japanese system with vassals able to turn their appointments into feudal titles is a really good idea that should be adopted further. Maybe less relevant for the Greek Byzantines but numerous times historically the Slavic subjects were able to get self rule autonomy with a hereditary prince. It also would allow a modeling of the HRE and Carolingian kingdom vassals unraveling from centrally appointed offices to hereditary property in the 867 start.
 
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yes sir, just like CK2 HIP had "A hero rises" event where a general would gain a claim on empire
It depends a lot on the loyalty the general had to the top ruler. And cultural values. Depending on those, the general might either decline the coup, puppet the top liege, or take the job for himself.
 
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Another way is the public treasury system for admin and celestial government meant the capital as a place that not only stores the personal wealth of the emperor but also the network hub for the whole empire to function.

If the captial is sacked, because power is more centralised and funds is centralised, the empire can lose massive amount of wealth overnight and cause them to collapse centrally.

Which means the capital needs to be extremely fortified and important to defend, as even losing it to an external power who seeks to steal the wealth would result in basically what happened to the Byzantines in 1204, an event they'll struggle to recover from.
 
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Further I think the recently mentioned Japanese system with vassals able to turn their appointments into feudal titles is a really good idea that should be adopted further. Maybe less relevant for the Greek Byzantines but numerous times historically the Slavic subjects were able to get self rule autonomy with a hereditary prince. It also would allow a modeling of the HRE and Carolingian kingdom vassals unraveling from centrally appointed offices to hereditary property in the 867 start.
I really like this idea. And while the exact process might not be historically accurate for Greeks it would still allow for a better representation of how Byz evolved during the period covered by CK3, the structure of the empire was far more 'feudal' in CK terms in the 14th century than it was in the 9th.
 
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I’ve run a bunch of observation games since the latest patch, and the new difficulty settings really expose just how OP Admin can be.

When other realms encounter serious problems, they sometimes entire a death spiral from which they never recover. Short of the Mongol invasion or the Fourth Crusade event, the Byzantines never fail to bounce back from even prolonged civil wars and the occasional loss of their territory.

I feel very strongly about this topic and I have some hyperspecific suggestions that I think would improve both the balance and the historical accuracy surrounding Admin.

Yes, Admin realms should be powerful, but they should also be highly centralized. When central authority is strong, the realm flourishes; when central authority is weak, it falters. Paradox promised this as part of the Admin government’s premise, but did not deliver on it.

For starters, ALL strategoi/governors should, by default, lack the ability to declare any external wars. In fact, no one, besides the emperor himself should be able to declare war without a strong hook on said emperor. As it stands, a huge part of the Admin problem is that the government type is overpowered all the way down. Even if the empire itself is embroiled in half a dozen wars, individual governors are just chilling, and maybe even still expanding the empire’s borders despite the crisis.

Strategoi/governors should be more focused on punitive raiding, and only declare war under very rare circumstances. Most of their focus should be not on conquering large swaths of land, but on outdoing and sabotaging each other in competition for prestigious positions. To reflect their role as stewards of the empire, they should instead be called to war as allies if their governorship is attacked and fight alongside the emperor himself.

I believe this shift to a wholly internal focus for vassals of the empire would actually be more satisfying for players, too. It would represent a departure from the usual gameplay of a vassal; instead of building tall as a “superduke,” the focus would be on climbing to the top in order to steer the empire.

With this change made, I believe only one further change need be made to balance Admin appropriately: making their powerful professional armies ruinously expensive. When the empire is on the defensive, fighting off numerous foes, it should be actively struggling to stay in the black, much less the green. The empire is rich enough as it is, and it stands to reason that an army consisting of something other than warrior-nobles who have all paid for their own damn armor and arms and horses should be, to use the phrase again, ruinously expensive. MAA, Levies, maybe even mercenaries - everything should be more expensive for Admin, and significantly so.

Thus, even a flourishing empire will eventually run out of money, whether the wars it is fighting or offensive or defensive. Maybe it will scrape out some victories and survive these wars, but struggle to escape bankruptcy for a number of years to follow. Or maybe it will lose land and… still struggle to escape bankruptcy for a number of years to follow. Either way it now becomes possible for an Admin realm to enter a death spiral, without strangely autonomous governors to save it by constantly nibbling away at the edges of bordering realms.

I sincerely believe that these changes would not just improve the balance of Admin, but bring it closer to what the developers envisioned for it. In good times, when the empire is united under a strong and well-liked emperor, it becomes a forced to be reckoned with. But in bad times when the emperor is facing civil, external invasion, and profound bankruptcy, it readily falls apart. It isn’t in danger of being split apart by succession, but it shouldn’t be able to rely on its governors to do anything other than hold the line.
 
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I’ve run a bunch of observation games since the latest patch, and the new difficulty settings really expose just how OP Admin can be.

When other realms encounter serious problems, they sometimes entire a death spiral from which they never recover. Short of the Mongol invasion or the Fourth Crusade event, the Byzantines never fail to bounce back from even prolonged civil wars and the occasional loss of their territory.

I feel very strongly about this topic and I have some hyperspecific suggestions that I think would improve both the balance and the historical accuracy surrounding Admin.

Yes, Admin realms should be powerful, but they should also be highly centralized. When central authority is strong, the realm flourishes; when central authority is weak, it falters. Paradox promised this as part of the Admin government’s premise, but did not deliver on it.

For starters, ALL strategoi/governors should, by default, lack the ability to declare any external wars. In fact, no one, besides the emperor himself should be able to declare war without a strong hook on said emperor. As it stands, a huge part of the Admin problem is that the government type is overpowered all the way down. Even if the empire itself is embroiled in half a dozen wars, individual governors are just chilling, and maybe even still expanding the empire’s borders despite the crisis.

Strategoi/governors should be more focused on punitive raiding, and only declare war under very rare circumstances. Most of their focus should be not on conquering large swaths of land, but on outdoing and sabotaging each other in competition for prestigious positions. To reflect their role as stewards of the empire, they should instead be called to war as allies if their governorship is attacked and fight alongside the emperor himself.

I believe this shift to a wholly internal focus for vassals of the empire would actually be more satisfying for players, too. It would represent a departure from the usual gameplay of a vassal; instead of building tall as a “superduke,” the focus would be on climbing to the top in order to steer the empire.

With this change made, I believe only one further change need be made to balance Admin appropriately: making their powerful professional armies ruinously expensive. When the empire is on the defensive, fighting off numerous foes, it should be actively struggling to stay in the black, much less the green. The empire is rich enough as it is, and it stands to reason that an army consisting of something other than warrior-nobles who have all paid for their own damn armor and arms and horses should be, to use the phrase again, ruinously expensive. MAA, Levies, maybe even mercenaries - everything should be more expensive for Admin, and significantly so.

Thus, even a flourishing empire will eventually run out of money, whether the wars it is fighting or offensive or defensive. Maybe it will scrape out some victories and survive these wars, but struggle to escape bankruptcy for a number of years to follow. Or maybe it will lose land and… still struggle to escape bankruptcy for a number of years to follow. Either way it now becomes possible for an Admin realm to enter a death spiral, without strangely autonomous governors to save it by constantly nibbling away at the edges of bordering realms.

I sincerely believe that these changes would not just improve the balance of Admin, but bring it closer to what the developers envisioned for it. In good times, when the empire is united under a strong and well-liked emperor, it becomes a forced to be reckoned with. But in bad times when the emperor is facing civil, external invasion, and profound bankruptcy, it readily falls apart. It isn’t in danger of being split apart by succession, but it shouldn’t be able to rely on its governors to do anything other than hold the line.

Governors needs to behave less like temporarily appointed feudal lords but as officials with very restricted mandates. Their power doesn't come from direct control over the provinces but rather from their favour they have from capital to be given such appointments.

Also many strategos and governors are there to seek even higher offices in imperial capital. But the game doesn't model this.
 
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Governors needs to behave less like temporarily appointed feudal lords but as officials with very restricted mandates. Their power doesn't come from direct control over the provinces but rather from their favour they have from capital to be given such appointments.

Also many strategos and governors are there to seek even higher offices in imperial capital. But the game doesn't model this.
Some things that the celestial government type has may need to be added into the administrative government, like how the top jobs tend not to be ruling the themes in the emperor's name but by having the emperor's ear. And make officials value getting ahold of themes close to the capital. Not all themes are equal, and the game needs to reflect this. Maybe by doing a good job in an unruly theme you can move up the ladder quicker. It seems pretty hard to get a better position without resorting to murder plots.
 
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