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If you want to see the ferocious :) belled cows of Foix, I just discovered (from random surfing from link to link from the address Jeremy posted above) that they still exist on the flag of Andorra:

http://www.flags.net/ANDR.htm

I never looked closely at the Andorran flag before, but it makes sense since the Bishops of Urgel and the Counts of Foix were the original co-princes of Andorra (the Bishops Urgel still are, and presumably the bishop's hat and crook in the first quater are their arms). Later, the Foix half-share of Andorra was inherited by the Kings of Navarra, then by the Kings of France. The President of France is to this day still a co-prince of Andorra.
 
The blue lions on gold for Denmark would be distinctive (the small hearts would probably have to be dropped).

It is completely out of the question to drop the "Dannebrog" from the game. It is the oldest national flag in the world, so if any flag should be changed it would be Savoy's.
 
Originally posted by Doomdark


It is completely out of the question to drop the "Dannebrog" from the game. It is the oldest national flag in the world, so if any flag should be changed it would be Savoy's.

Yeah, I knew that, and I understand the problems people would have with removing it. The only problem is that Savoy's flag and coat of arms are the same, while Denmark at least has a differing coat of arms. Maybe a slight tweaking of color where one is a noticeably darker red than the other (they are different in the game, but only very slightly)?

Maybe we could use Piemonte's coat of arms instead of Savoy's (the capital was Turin after all)? Or maybe a combination of the two (which I believe may have been done in this time period anyway)?
 
Sugestions for eastern Europe

I have found a map which details Europe in 1500 in which Eastern Europe looks quite different from the game http://www.home.ch/~spaw1241/atla2fr.htm

Base on this I think thew follwoing changes should be considered

1. Give Bujak to Moldovia, the map shows them owning it with Turkish presence only in the extreme south on the province

2. Make Adana an independant Mameluk Vasal (I know this is alreayd being discused just wanted to state my suport for it :))

3. Have a Slovenian/Croatian state/revolter (although this may be difficult with the map and all)

4. Have Transilvania independent (maybe as a vasal of Hungary) at the start (although I can see gameplay problems with this :()

5. Make Polands black sea and south Ukrainian provinces revolt prone (not sure how this could be done but...) as acording to the map they didn't have firm control of them, I will see if I can find any information on this.

6. Give Kerch to Turkey, the Krim don't seem to own any territory in this area and Turkey has the prot itself.

Hope you find these useful :)
 
Re: Sugestions for eastern Europe

Originally posted by Cockney
I have found a map which details Europe in 1500 in which Eastern Europe looks quite different from the game http://www.home.ch/~spaw1241/atla2fr.htm

Base on this I think thew follwoing changes should be considered

1. Give Bujak to Moldovia, the map shows them owning it with Turkish presence only in the extreme south on the province

2. Make Adana an independant Mameluk Vasal (I know this is alreayd being discused just wanted to state my suport for it :))

6. Give Kerch to Turkey, the Krim don't seem to own any territory in this area and Turkey has the prot itself.

Assuming the map is correct: These would good for Turkey in the beginning in terms of saving them from getting killed from their bad boy rating after annexing the Mameluks too quickly. Moldovia having Bujak would prevent Poland from attacking Turkey right after the Mameluks are annexed. In my games when they dow Turkey they usually end up with Bujak in the peace treaty. Adana would mean one less bad boy point. I'd rather have them than Granada, though it would be doubtful Granada will ever be replaced. Kerch to Turkey would make up for the loss of Bujak.
 
This is what i found about the situation around Bujak around 1480s:

"Though Bayezid preferred to maintain peace—in order to have the time and resources to concentrate on internal development—he was forced into a number of campaigns by the exigencies of the period and the demands of his more militant devsirme followers. In Europe he rounded off the empire south of the Danube and Sava by taking Herzegovina (1483), leaving only Belgrade outside Ottoman control. The Hungarian king Matthias Corvinus (ruled 1458–90) was interested mainly in establishing his rule over Bohemia and agreed to peace with the Ottomans (1484), and, after his death, struggles for succession left this front relatively quiet for the remainder of Bayezid's reign. To the northeast the sultan pushed Ottoman territory north of the Danube, along the shores of the Black Sea, capturing in 1484 the ports of Kilia and Akkerman, which controlled the mouths of the Danube and Dniester. The Ottomans thus controlled the major entrepôts of northern European trade with the Black Sea and Mediterranean. Because these advances conflicted with the ambitions of Poland, in 1483–84 war ensued, until the diversion of Poland by the threat of Muscovy under Ivan III the Great left this front quiet also after 1484."

Source: Brittanica

Where is Kilia and Akkerman?
 
Bits and pieces:

- Folks, didn´t You notice that Kerch is already at Turkey in 2.0k? :)
- Adana does not work. We have no tag for Ramadan.
- Bujak to Moldavia is a very good idea IMHO.

Hartmann
 
I was just thinking, shouldn't Salzburg province produce salt? I know the area is famous for its salt mines, salt was a major export and producer of revenue in the area during the time period, and, well, the city is named after salt after all. I haven't heard of any major iron mines in the area, although it may be that I haven't heard of them.
 
I don't know about taking Bujak away from the Turks. With the exception of the link posted above, every map I have seen give the Turks control over the area in 1484.
 
Re: The Araucans

Originally posted by Chema_Cagi
Throwing my 2 pesetas...

The araucans (or araucanians) were a tribe living south of the Incan empire. Neither the incas nor the spaniards were able to conquer this fierce people in the time span covered by EU, and several expeditions failed again and again.

They even had some well known chieftains, like Lautaro, Caupolicán and Colocolo, and there are reports of a standing army of 10000 warriors.

The araucans lived more or less in the two coastal provinces south of the Incan empire (Coquinto and Valparaíso, if I recall well).

They had a elected chief (or 'toqui') of all tribes, one for times of peace and one for times of war. I don't see them as having enough infrastructure to be depicted as a separated nation, but I think that these two provinces should have a larger and fiercer population, and/or perhaps a lower supply value, to make them a hard piece of cake.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01679b.htm

http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=0001E000

I think this is a pretty good idea, but didn't the araucanians retreat inland very quickly, into what in EU terms is terra incognita?

On an almost off topic note: I have noticed that the initial colonization success chances in present day argentina/uraguay are pretty high though. I was under the impression that the initial colonization of this area failed and it was only the vast amount of descendents of the stray cattle from the initial attempt that enabled the later colonies

JRM
 
Originally posted by Hartmann


Yes, it would have to be European style but that´s no problem with Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and the Boer Republic (which is a nice idea also).
Mexico wouldn´t clash with the Aztecs as I would remove the Aztecs from revolt.txt. So once they are gone they wouldn´t show up again. If Mexico would be implemented, I would set the earliest possible starting date for Mexico in a way, that they will most probably not come *directly* from the Aztecs of course (which would be exhilarating :)). I´m not sure, whether having the capital in the same location could lead to crash problems, though. This would have to be clarified. Anyway the topic what to do with the KUR tag is still free for further discussion. :)

Hartmann

another possible name for a latin american republic should be Columbia, which was the name of Bolivar's state. and this tag could also work for a mexican revolt.

JRM

JRM
 
Some thoughts on the Romanian provinces

After looking into the status of the three Romanian principalities (Wallachia, Moldovia, and Transylvania), it seems some tweaking could be done to better reflect the history of the region.

For one, I'd suggest additional CB flags for all three countries on each other's capital provinces (though the emergence of Transylvania, of course, is only potential), as well as Ruthenia, Maros, and potentially Banat to represent reuniting Dacia. There is certainly evidence that this was attempted, and even accomplished, within the scope of the game. This is from the Romanian Government Home Page at http://domino.kappa.ro/guvern/istoria-e.html:


"The end of the 16th century was dominated by the personality of Michael the Brave. He became voivode of Wallachia in 1593, joined the Christian League - an anti-Ottoman coalition initiated by the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire and he succeeded, following heavy battles (Calugareni, Giurgiu) to actually regain the independence of his country. In 1599-1600 he united for the first time in history all the territories inhabited by Romanians, proclaiming himself “prince of Wallachia, Transylvania and the whole of Moldavia.” The domestic situation was very complex, the neighbouring great-powers - the Ottoman Empire, Poland, the Hapsburg Empire - were hostile and joined forces to overthrow him; so this union was short-lived as Michael the Brave was assassinated in 1601. The union achieved by the valiant voivode became, however, a symbol to the posterity. In the 17th century, in various forms and with evanescent success, other princes attempted to restart the ambitious political program of Michael the Brave, by trying to form a united anti-Ottoman front, made-up of the three principalities and to restore the unity of ancient Dacia."


I'd also suggest increasing relations between Wallachia and Moldovia. They start at -40, which doesn't seem to reflect history, as they'd been allied against the Turks (I'm not sure how you set up Transylvania). This is from the same site:


"Alone or in alliance with the neighbouring Christian countries, more often in alliance with the neighbouring voivodes of the other two Romanian principalities, the voivodes of Wallachia Mircea the Old (1386-1418) and Vlad the Impeller (Dracula of the Mediaeval legends, 1456-1462), with Stephen the Great and Holy (1457-1504), the voivode of Moldavia and Iancu of Hunedoara, the voivode of Transylvania (1441-1456) fought heavy defence battles against the Ottoman Turks, delaying their expansion to Central Europe."


Ultimately, all three Romanian principalities became Turkish vassals (in the EU sense), though that was at least partially for the protection they offered. Ironically, it was the Turks who freed Transylvannia from Hungarian rule, setting them up as a quasi-independent state.

I'd also consider looking at the province religions. Transylvania's starting Religion should probably be Orthodox, as the native population was still largely intact under Hungarian rule. Maros, and possibly Banat too. With the partial independence they gained by paying tribute to the Turks, they were really a bastion of the Eastern Orthodox religion in the area.

Finally, I'd second giving Bujak to Moldovia (or at least testing it out). Though the evidence may be inconclusive, it would be nice if at least one principality survived to strive for reuinification, and unfortunately, Wallachia doesn't seem up to the task (a block to the Poles is an added bonus). I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable weakening Hungary more by giving Maros, Ruthenia or Banat to either principality, but that would be another option. It might actually add to their survivability.

Love the IGC, by the way. Kudos to the team for some excellent and entertaining work.


- Raife
 
About this Bujak issue. If you want to give Bujak to Moldavia because of "balance" matters, bear in mind that it will cost the Turks another BB point. However if you want to do it because you want the ICG to be more "historical" don't do it. Bujak was part of the empire in 1492. I have a scanned map showing Europe at 1476,it also shows the conquest made late 15th century which I got from the library. On that map Bujak(including kilia and akkerman) belongs to turkey. If someone is interested I could post that map(the language is German).
 
I had two maps which showed Bujak being Moldavian in 1462 and Crimean 100 years later. It's a known fact that Turkey captured the area in 1480s (if I am not mistaken), but I am not sure what happened to it after that. Did it go back to Moldavia after they became vassals of Ottomans? BTW, Akkerman is in Bessarabia, so the map is incorrect if you want to call Bujak Akkerman

Crook
 
Originally posted by Crook
I had two maps which showed Bujak being Moldavian in 1462 and Crimean 100 years later. It's a known fact that Turkey captured the area in 1480s (if I am not mistaken), but I am not sure what happened to it after that. Did it go back to Moldavia after they became vassals of Ottomans? BTW, Akkerman is in Bessarabia, so the map is incorrect if you want to call Bujak Akkerman

Crook

Hmmmm, maybe we should have some place we could post our maps to compare. But even if Bujak belonged to Crimea(i doubt that Crimea had control over bujak), it was under the ottoman control at 1492. I have link here from britannica "http://www.britannica.com/eb/art?id=13043&type=A" the map shows moldovia under ottoman control middle of 16th century. At least it didnt belong to moldovia later....

Sorry about Akkerman my mistake
;) .
 
Yasko: Please post that map. I have a map where Bujak is Moldovian in 1500, but if it was still Turkish in 1492 it will stay so in the game, of course. Accuracy is an overriding factor here. :)

Hartmann
 
Thoughts on Italy

I would like to echo what others have said about Italy and add that I REALLY think that Ferrara should be represented, possibly by adding it to Modena and renaming Emilia Ferrara or something. The capital although technically in Emilia, should be moved to Modena so the province can be annexed and fought over. Since most the wars in Italy during 1492-1513 involved this Duchy and it was definately not controlled by the Papal States during most of that time. It might even be interesting to add some CB shields to Italy to stir things up. For example, CB Shields in Emilia for papal states, in Romagna and possibly Emilia for Venice (they don't really have CB, but were definately interested in those areas, the league against Venice formed by Julius for this very reason). CBs possibly in Naples and Milan for France also or possibly someway to simulate French interest in Milan and Naples.

My thinking is that we could use CBs to stimulate the expansionists aims that the various factions had. Stabilities should also be lowered into the negative range for papal states, naples and florence.

By the way, as yet another alternative to the Holland question in 1492, couldn't you make some of the territory core provinces for Spain but give them to Austria?
 
No way! They're not core provinces by a long shot. Just the thought :D Could even mess with the revolt. And u'd get Spain fighting Austria and so on ...

France already has temp CBs on Milan and Naples.