I would not object to adding a "CoT in Astrakhan" option to the IGC Config tool - piece of cake. The nature of EU CoTs is abstract enough to allow it without too many historical objections either.
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Originally posted by Crook
BTW, in my current game (I play as Russia, but peacefully), Spain got a civil war event, and half of their possesions in Central and South America were in rebel hands. Yet Mexico didn't form
Serbia actually did. Your choice for a Mexican capital (Tampico) is actually questionable, Spain quite rarely builds a city there, maybe that's part of the problem?
The reason why I chose Tampico is, that they shouldn´t form with a pagan capital, else they would be pagan. In my testgames they built up Tampico very fast, but You´re right, I later had many occasions where they didn´t. The province to the West (Jalisco with Monterey?) would be an alternative.
Hartmann
I need Your help, folks!
I´m very displeased with Kazan/Ryazan situation.
After doing some more research, I now think, that definitely
- Lugansk should go to Crimea
- Donetsk should go to Poland/Lithuania
- Voronez, too, should go to Poland/Lithuania
But what about Liptsek, Tambow, Bogutjar?
Bogutjar could stay at the Horde, but it also could go to Poland/Lithuania
Liptsek and Tambow have to be removed from Kazan. They had no holdings South and West of Ryazan. This would make them a one province country, but that can´t be helped. The map simply doesn´t depict their possessions in the East. And whereas they extended somewhat to the North, this doesn´t warrant giving them Vladimir.
I realize, that Liptsek and Tambow should possibly go to Ryazan. Tambow could also be claimed by the Horde, but giving only Liptsek to Ryazan would distort the topology (Ryazan was nicely "round").
What do You think?
Hartmann
I´m very displeased with Kazan/Ryazan situation.
After doing some more research, I now think, that definitely
- Lugansk should go to Crimea
- Donetsk should go to Poland/Lithuania
- Voronez, too, should go to Poland/Lithuania
But what about Liptsek, Tambow, Bogutjar?
Bogutjar could stay at the Horde, but it also could go to Poland/Lithuania
Liptsek and Tambow have to be removed from Kazan. They had no holdings South and West of Ryazan. This would make them a one province country, but that can´t be helped. The map simply doesn´t depict their possessions in the East. And whereas they extended somewhat to the North, this doesn´t warrant giving them Vladimir.
I realize, that Liptsek and Tambow should possibly go to Ryazan. Tambow could also be claimed by the Horde, but giving only Liptsek to Ryazan would distort the topology (Ryazan was nicely "round"
). What do You think?
Hartmann
Hartmann:
In one of my earlier posts (probably in the province thread) I mentioned that Tambov and Lipetsk would fit Ryazan' more, than Kazan'.
To alleviate the situation how abour making Kazan' a vassal of Russia which she was historically, and give them -100-150 relationship with Russia. Then about the time of the first Crimean khan (1524 ?) give them a series of events to bring the relationship with Russia down to -200. This way Russia would have a historcal thing in 1500s - go to war against Poland, and absorb Pskov and Ryzan'.
BYW, move the capital of Golden Horde from Samara to Volgograd/Sarai - that where it actually was located.
If we give Poland Vorones, then we have to give Russia Tula, just swap those two provinces.
Adjust the population in all GH provinces to less than 3000 (except the capital).
Crook
In one of my earlier posts (probably in the province thread) I mentioned that Tambov and Lipetsk would fit Ryazan' more, than Kazan'.
To alleviate the situation how abour making Kazan' a vassal of Russia which she was historically, and give them -100-150 relationship with Russia. Then about the time of the first Crimean khan (1524 ?) give them a series of events to bring the relationship with Russia down to -200. This way Russia would have a historcal thing in 1500s - go to war against Poland, and absorb Pskov and Ryzan'.
BYW, move the capital of Golden Horde from Samara to Volgograd/Sarai - that where it actually was located.
If we give Poland Vorones, then we have to give Russia Tula, just swap those two provinces.
Adjust the population in all GH provinces to less than 3000 (except the capital).
Crook
Moving Golden Horde capitol would mean transferring Volgograd province from Astrachan. What then with Uralsk and Orenburg (my maps don´t cover these areas)? Should maybe Astrachan be made a one province minor?
Hartmann
Hartmann
Actually what Russia controlled after the capture of Astrakhan in 1554 was a narrow strip of land around the Volga River, extending all the way from Sarai down to Astrakhan. Technically, then Astrakhan should be a one province minor. Uralsk, Orenburg and Emba etc were controlled by nomadic tribes, Nogais, Kazakhs and so on. Unfortunately, with the present map we can't really do much
I have added this CoT. But it looks like it did not work. Only Astrakhanian provinces change to new CoT all others continue to use Venecia. May be I should change something?
But if this cannot be solved its better to give khanates knowlege of Venecia (CoT) Province and Novgorod. actually they should know about that territories they have a lot of contacts with venice an Novgorod.
Re: I need Your help, folks!
I think we should leave everything as it is. Borders was so unclear in this area that I affraide we could not reconstruct them clearly.
Lugansk to much to the north from original Crimea. In history there was periods when this territory was crimean controled. But not always and not in 1492. In 1492 Crimea was in process of forming as realy country and her borders was very flexible.
I think current Polish boders is the best choice. But Voronez and Donetsk was not of cause under Horde control. Actually they should be neutral territories (as I already write once) with very small native population.
Lipetsk can be given to Ryazan, but Tambow and Bogujar should be left as they are. Tambow in Kazan hands and Bogutjar in Horde's hands.
Actually this is problem with Ryazan which is situated in wrong place. Kazan had territories in Tambow province.
Vladimir should be defenetly Russian. There is no question about that.
I think we should leave everything as it is. Borders was so unclear in this area that I affraide we could not reconstruct them clearly.
Lugansk to much to the north from original Crimea. In history there was periods when this territory was crimean controled. But not always and not in 1492. In 1492 Crimea was in process of forming as realy country and her borders was very flexible.
I think current Polish boders is the best choice. But Voronez and Donetsk was not of cause under Horde control. Actually they should be neutral territories (as I already write once) with very small native population.
Lipetsk can be given to Ryazan, but Tambow and Bogujar should be left as they are. Tambow in Kazan hands and Bogutjar in Horde's hands.
Actually this is problem with Ryazan which is situated in wrong place. Kazan had territories in Tambow province.
Vladimir should be defenetly Russian. There is no question about that.
Whoa !
BYW, move the capital of Golden Horde from Samara to Volgograd/Sarai - that where it actually was located.
No, don't do this. samara has to be the capital bc it is the gold province and if it goes to Russia as an early settlement then it throws things to Russia too fast!
If we give Poland Vorones, then we have to give Russia Tula, just swap those two provinces.
Yes, do this. Makes sense.
Adjust the population in all GH provinces to less than 3000 (except the capital).
Yes, but keep the capital as Samara.
Otherwise, like Tanone says, keep it the way it is..
BYW, move the capital of Golden Horde from Samara to Volgograd/Sarai - that where it actually was located.
No, don't do this. samara has to be the capital bc it is the gold province and if it goes to Russia as an early settlement then it throws things to Russia too fast!
If we give Poland Vorones, then we have to give Russia Tula, just swap those two provinces.
Yes, do this. Makes sense.
Adjust the population in all GH provinces to less than 3000 (except the capital).
Yes, but keep the capital as Samara.
Otherwise, like Tanone says, keep it the way it is..
I have done most of the things I wrote about above and it worked really promising.
I have several maps where Crimea controls Lugansk, one of them depicting situation in 1493! Anyway it also compensates them somwhat for the loss of Kerch (after already having lost Kaffa).
I know the gamemap is screwed, but giving only Liptsek and not Tambow to Ryazan looks sooo ugly.
In my testgame, Kazan was a Russian vassal til 1521. Kazan was annexed in 1540 - quite good, don´t You think? The best thing is, that they annexed Astrachan exactly in 1552! Only problem was that Russia vassalized but not diploannexed Ryazan until 1560 this time. I will have to do something about this.
I know about flexible borders and all this (I even have one map, where Ingermanland is depicted as "neutral" in 1505 despite Ivangorod on it!), but nevertheless I think Bogutjar should probably go to Poland-Lithuania, too. I have a map which would then almost exactly match the gamemap so far....
Okies, I will do some further testing.
Hartmann
I have several maps where Crimea controls Lugansk, one of them depicting situation in 1493! Anyway it also compensates them somwhat for the loss of Kerch (after already having lost Kaffa).
I know the gamemap is screwed, but giving only Liptsek and not Tambow to Ryazan looks sooo ugly.
In my testgame, Kazan was a Russian vassal til 1521. Kazan was annexed in 1540 - quite good, don´t You think? The best thing is, that they annexed Astrachan exactly in 1552! Only problem was that Russia vassalized but not diploannexed Ryazan until 1560 this time. I will have to do something about this.
I know about flexible borders and all this (I even have one map, where Ingermanland is depicted as "neutral" in 1505 despite Ivangorod on it!), but nevertheless I think Bogutjar should probably go to Poland-Lithuania, too. I have a map which would then almost exactly match the gamemap so far....
Okies, I will do some further testing.
Hartmann
Just move the godda*n gold together with the capital. Neither of the provinces produced it, anyway. Province Samara shouldn't be called Samara, but probably Bashkir. Samara is on Volga, north of Volgograd/Tsaritsyn/Sarai, and the city shown is closer to being Ufa (not quite though). Who made this map, anyway???
Malatya?
This idea sprang from a response on another thread concerning possible Byzantine starting provinces. I mentioned that if one were to have a fantasy setting where the Byzantines were still in existence in 1492, the Turks should have fewer provinces in Europe. Then my thoughts turned to Asia as I wondered if the Turks should have less there as well in such a setting. The I remembered that the Turks actually did have fewer provinces in Asia in 1492 than they possess in EU. I am talking about the Dh'ul-Qadr Emirate at Malatya, the last of the non-Ottoman Turkish states in Anatolia. It lasted until 1522, and the Sivas province would be quite a good match for the terrritories it owned. I don't know if it is worth sacrificing another revolter to set up another minor state, but it would be historically accurate for Malatya to be independent at the beginning of the game.
This idea sprang from a response on another thread concerning possible Byzantine starting provinces. I mentioned that if one were to have a fantasy setting where the Byzantines were still in existence in 1492, the Turks should have fewer provinces in Europe. Then my thoughts turned to Asia as I wondered if the Turks should have less there as well in such a setting. The I remembered that the Turks actually did have fewer provinces in Asia in 1492 than they possess in EU. I am talking about the Dh'ul-Qadr Emirate at Malatya, the last of the non-Ottoman Turkish states in Anatolia. It lasted until 1522, and the Sivas province would be quite a good match for the terrritories it owned. I don't know if it is worth sacrificing another revolter to set up another minor state, but it would be historically accurate for Malatya to be independent at the beginning of the game.
Kazan etc
A suggestion: eliminate Golden Horde and use the tag for something else. Divide the Horde's provinces between Kazan and Astrakhan. The Horde didn't last for long after the game start anyhow, so why waste a tag on it?
A suggestion: eliminate Golden Horde and use the tag for something else. Divide the Horde's provinces between Kazan and Astrakhan. The Horde didn't last for long after the game start anyhow, so why waste a tag on it?
Re: Malatya?
Dulkadirogullari(Sivas) were a vassal of Turkey and Ramazanogullari(Malatya or was it Adana?) were vassal of Memlukes. The problem is the badboy value, Turkish AI already sucks right now, giving it more small countries to annex will make turkey even weaker......
Dulkadirogullari(Sivas) were a vassal of Turkey and Ramazanogullari(Malatya or was it Adana?) were vassal of Memlukes. The problem is the badboy value, Turkish AI already sucks right now, giving it more small countries to annex will make turkey even weaker......
Re: Kazan etc
Beter to remove Granada. It usually conqured during first year and very rear revolts.
Beter to remove Granada. It usually conqured during first year and very rear revolts.
Re: Malatya?
Byzantium should start with Thrace, Morea and Trabzon.
Serbia should be independent and start with Serbia, Bosnia and Kososvo.
Turkey can have capital in Macedonia (her historical capital was in Europe but it was located in Thrace) or in Agora.
Adana can be new minor country (vassal of Turkey better).
Hellas should be independent Latin Greece minor country and vassal of Aragon (Spain) (last crusaders was there). Albania can be in Byzantium hands or as independent minor.
Byzantium should start with Thrace, Morea and Trabzon.
Serbia should be independent and start with Serbia, Bosnia and Kososvo.
Turkey can have capital in Macedonia (her historical capital was in Europe but it was located in Thrace) or in Agora.
Adana can be new minor country (vassal of Turkey better).
Hellas should be independent Latin Greece minor country and vassal of Aragon (Spain) (last crusaders was there). Albania can be in Byzantium hands or as independent minor.
In that case, make the fortress in Byzantium a mighty one or even a lvl higher.
In real life it was never taken in over a 1000 years
In real life it was never taken in over a 1000 years