Interregnum in EU3

[orimazd]

I picked Jedisan because it is in Ukraine (the Ukraininan Jews are the ones who were extremely numerous and subject to a lot of pogroms). Let a Jewish state revolt from that general area. I don't know how it would treat the non-jewish population there, as it would depend on the kind of leader their messiah was.

 

[MattyG]

So, here was the thread we started a while back.

Most of my original ideas were rejected, and for good reasons.

People ought to place here their preferences for a 1453 set-up.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

I was told by the person that Modded the EU3 exe to accept earlier dates that the checksum of the EXE is the same. So it is likely going to work in multiplayer, as long as all parties have the same setup in their moddir and the exe is modded the same way. I really hope an autopatcher will be released by some in the community. other than that the hex edit seemed easy enough.

My current little "problem" with modifying the original EU3 map to fit EU2 Interregnum is the extra regions and provinces. There are some places that even have their own extra states. For example the champagne region in EU3 already has Champagne country. I can either split it between Burgundy and Orleaans or leave it as is.

Currently areas of major EU3 countries have these little extra bonus buildings in some regions. Like the University of Toulouse in Toulouse. It gives a slight bonus to that region. I do not know when that was established. I do not know if the region woudl be strong enough buy itself to establish this if not for the fact that it was under English and/or French crown. Also just north of Navarra is Armaniac (sp?) it is a one province minor all on it's own.

I edited some out from the start of the game but left them in the files as possible revolters.

The area of HRE is crowded with minors that were not there in the Abberation.

I have this feeling that the modifiability of the game is great enough that one can steer events in a similar fashion as was done in eu2. There are some people already working on Historical Realism project and they have quite a few workarounds to the event scripting.

I say we work on what we can and wait to see what develops. Paradox might give us extra triggers in next patches due to very vocal community desiring triggers by date and province and country. There are workarounds already, they are rather cumbersome to write, so Pdox might make it easier.

 

[MattyG]

Great to read all of this.

I think you ought to just complete the map in whatever fashion you want at this point. Once people see it they can make comments on ownership issues etc.

As for the HRE, I would be happy to see a lot more minors there.

The other trick for us here in Interregnum are the maps and shields and other graphics. We have a lot that do not exist in EU3 and which we will need to make (no time, no skill) or wait for someone else to create.

You've done a lot of work in a short space of time. Congrats.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I think the 'better treatment of Jews in Granada' is a bit of a myth, but the sources for all of it are now pretty scant.

Quite true, it is a bit of a myth in a sense. The Jews rose to great prominence under the Ummayed Caliphs and were entrusted with Ministry positions but lost all that during the Taifa periods, though some Emirs and Imams generally showed a great deal of acceptance towards the Jewish community. They were oppressed mostly by the Almohads (Alot of Jews fled to Egypt under Saladin, a famous refugee being miamonidos).

But hey, in the end, they faced the same fate as Muslims did in Iberia : expulsion and that never happened in Muslim lands until well....the 20th century, but enough said.

 

[MattyG]

Quite true, it is a bit of a myth in a sense. The Jews rose to great prominence under the Ummayed Caliphs and were entrusted with Ministry positions but lost all that during the Taifa periods, though some Emirs and Imams generally showed a great deal of acceptance towards the Jewish community. They were oppressed mostly by the Almohads (Alot of Jews fled to Egypt under Saladin, a famous refugee being miamonidos).

But hey, in the end, they faced the same fate as Muslims did in Iberia : expulsion and that never happened in Muslim lands until well....the 20th century, but enough said.

There can be no doubt that the European christians were rarely as accepting of other religions as some of the islamic countries were (Ottomans, Ummayeds). Isabella was notable for her deception and repression, but the orthodox Russians could be equally mean to muslims. Jews were on a permanent roller-coaster ride in Europe, accepted in the good times for their industry and ability to loan money (they were damned already in christian eyes), and persecuted in the bad times (or when the nobles owed them too much money).

In the end, lets not pretend though that any of this is comparable with contemporary notions of religious acceptance.

So, while I find the idea of a Jewish state having emerged somewhere (like the Balkans), the storyline for its creation would need to be very careful. I think it is more likely a matter of - say - both Hungary and Byzantium having exiled Jews to Wallachia in numbers such that they were able to then fight for some degree of self-rule.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

How about Krakow?

 

[Toio]

There can be no doubt that the European christians were rarely as accepting of other religions as some of the islamic countries were (Ottomans, Ummayeds). Isabella was notable for her deception and repression, but the orthodox Russians could be equally mean to muslims. Jews were on a permanent roller-coaster ride in Europe, accepted in the good times for their industry and ability to loan money (they were damned already in christian eyes), and persecuted in the bad times (or when the nobles owed them too much money).

In the end, lets not pretend though that any of this is comparable with contemporary notions of religious acceptance.

So, while I find the idea of a Jewish state having emerged somewhere (like the Balkans), the storyline for its creation would need to be very careful. I think it is more likely a matter of - say - both Hungary and Byzantium having exiled Jews to Wallachia in numbers such that they were able to then fight for some degree of self-rule.

as you say, but how important is religion ?, that is, judasm is a religion and not a culture,
culture has more importance, take as an example, the greek culture , a culture without a government or country for 2200 years ( alexander the great to 1820) and yet even with the influences of orthodox, christian, muslim and jewish religons they created there nation by culture.

so getting back to a "jewish" state, who would let the jew ( a religion ) form a state when the culture of that area would dominate any form or semblence of a "jewish state emerging ?

I can not see or invisage anyone allowing this

 

[MattyG]

A great point, which I will permit the poster of the original idea to respond to, to so defend his proposal.

 

[orimazd]

as you say, but how important is religion ?

Some people find religion very important. Do you know what a pogrom is? Do you think they were not motivated by religion?

I mean, really, its not like most occurences that triggered pogroms REALLY happened...they started out as rumors. No christian blood goes into the making of passover crackers. I forgot their name, despite how many times I saw the rugrats chanakkah special when I was a kid (which was probably twice).

, that is, judasm is a religion and not a culture,

Perhaps, but it would not take much for a jewish culture to arise. There are other things which are much more unlikely to have happened which did--for example, the discovery that certain chemicals mixed in a certain way can burn fast, or explode if it is in a tight space--ie, gunpowder. There are more people than ideas (considering that most people have ideas that are roughly the same), and a charismatic person can accomplish a lot.

Occasionally you would have a man claiming to be the messiah. It happened quite a bit back in the EU2 days. Suppose a pogrom is called in a city...lets call the city it happens in Râmnicu Sărat. Why? Because, according to Wikipedia, in 1900 it had a lot of Jews, and there was a battle at the town in 1434. I'll find a better more appropriate city later. Anyways, in most pogroms jews did not fight back. They ran for their lives and hid like citizens of a city which resisted Temur-e Lang and just lost the siege. Occasionally someone would proclaim himself the messiah and fight back at the murderous pogromites, but that didn't really ever work out.

Consider this--one craaaaaazy jew fights back, say, to save his sister (I saw Hannibal Rising last night, so why not steal some of the plot, kinda...). For now, lets call him Kyle Brovlovski (don't worry, it won't stick), and his sister Ike (neither will this).

I'm trying to work my way around the lack of resistance to a pogrom. Lets say Kyle is really popular. It was a Saturday night at the Synagogue, so he wasn't the only kid around. (I wish I knew what children did at the end of the Sabbat--did they go to the Synagogue with their parents? I say probably, but don't quote me on that) Back in these days death was everywhere, so a kid of about fifteen would be familiar with violence, and being a Jew, familiar with being an object of hatred. The more I think about this, the more movie-like it turns out in my head. But fifteen-year-old heirs-to-the-throne often led armies into battle, but they were well-taught on the "art of war." I'll come back to the beginning later.

culture has more importance, take as an example, the greek culture , a culture without a government or country for 2200 years ( alexander the great to 1820) and yet even with the influences of orthodox, christian, muslim and jewish religons they created there nation by culture.

Nationalism wasn't an ideology until the 1700s-1800s. You are talking about Nationalism.

so getting back to a "jewish" state, who would let the jew ( a religion ) form a state when the culture of that area would dominate any form or semblence of a "jewish state emerging ?

I can not see or invisage anyone allowing this

Well, if all the people who opposed a jewish state got kicked out or put six feet under, they can't resist it. This isn't farfetched, considering what people do in emotional frenzies.

Of course, the game messiah who creates the Jewish State in our game is not the real messiah, because then there would be a lot of dead people rising from their graves.

He won't be leading them to Israel/Palestine, either, which is kinda an action that the Messiah does. When the people realize that Kyle ben Gerald is not the real messiah, the people will either allow his chosen heir to rule, or they will be governed by the Sanhedrin. Or, potentially, both. Who knows. I have a capstone paper to work on, so I'll figure it out after I write 20 pages before Valentine's Day.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

I do not wish to steer this in a wrong direction orimazd, but according to the beliefs of non secular Jews (which would be 100% of Jews in that era), they MAY NOT have a state of their own.

The Jewish people were sent into exile by divine decree. They were then expressly commanded by the Almighty, not to attempt to leave their exilic existence through any human intervention. (Talmud, Tractate Kesuboth, p.111).

 

[unmerged(30761)]

I want to report progress on the map

North America, British Isles, France, Spain, HRE, Balkans and Byzantines and KOJ are set up geographically.

HRE looks a bit confused as I tried to leave minor states as independent states when I could. For Example: Mainz and Pfalz are Bavarian in EU2 interregnum. They are one province minors now in EU3 and instead I have taken territory from multi province minors in the vicinity and given it to Bavaria.

Overall, with a great deal many new cultures we will need to think through really well as to how we want to GROUP together different cultures. Since a culture from a different culture group gives a 30% malus and a culture from your own gives 10% malus.

Another question I have is in EU3 there is an Austrian subculture of german culture. since there is no Austria I am thinking of breaking the culture up to styrian and tyrollian or some such with proper spelling. I do not know what to do about Wien. it is austrian subculture in posession of Bohemia.

This does not include contested province claims (that is everyone has a shield on their occupying territory. I am doing it this way for now. Vassalages, Royal marriages and Alliances and Wars are not set up.)

 

[MattyG]

The culture issue is complicated, to be sure.

Make the decisions you feel are right. When the full map is done, people will surely comment.

Looking forward to it.

Matty

 

[orimazd]

I do not wish to steer this in a wrong direction orimazd, but according to the beliefs of non secular Jews (which would be 100% of Jews in that era), they MAY NOT have a state of their own.

The Jewish people were sent into exile by divine decree. They were then expressly commanded by the Almighty, not to attempt to leave their exilic existence through any human intervention. (Talmud, Tractate Kesuboth, p.111).

You know a lot more about this than I do. I don't read the Talmud, as much as I would like to. Basically, I was making this up off the top of my head. After I write the 20 page paper (I'm picking sources right now), I'll look into this as deeply as I can, and come up with some idea.

And that explains why they didn't ever vote with their feet.

 

[Toio]

Some people find religion very important. Do you know what a pogrom is? Do you think they were not motivated by religion?

the only motivation religion gives , is spiritual motivation, it does not define who you are as a person, where you come from, what language you speak, and cannot make any nations from religion for example, take a 1000 people with a 1000 cultures who have have the same religion, they will never form a nation because their cultural traits will not entirley merge.
oops I forgot Israel, yea a nation formed by a "gift" from the English, enough said.

take the ancient Greeks, vikings and Romans they where religious, they had 100's of Gods, most likely the same God as we have today, same God as the christians, muslims etc.

Note: I am a religious person, but I believe its way down on my list of importance due to the fact that religion is for my own "spiritual" guidance, to pray when I want to pray, to attend mass when i want to attend and not to listen to someone who is attepting to drive me in one direction which would not suit me. "someones" who drive masses in one direction are basically militant people.
One believes who they want to believe, its the same God to me, regardless of religion.

Perhaps, but it would not take much for a jewish culture to arise.

jewish religion, Hebrew culture or now israeli culture. do we have a christian culture, buddhist culture etc or are you trying to say jewish religious practices?

Occasionally you would have a man claiming to be the messiah.

yea, i heard of them, salesmen , sometimes selling bad goods.

It happened quite a bit back in the EU2 days. Suppose a pogrom is called in a city...lets call the city it happens in Râmnicu Sărat. Why? Because, according to Wikipedia, in 1900 it had a lot of Jews, and there was a battle at the town in 1434. I'll find a better more appropriate city later. Anyways, in most pogroms jews did not fight back. They ran for their lives and hid like citizens of a city which resisted Temur-e Lang and just lost the siege. Occasionally someone would proclaim himself the messiah and fight back at the murderous pogromites, but that didn't really ever work out.

these messiah's are called guerrilla fighters, rebels, freedom fighters. they are not religously based, but based on the masses who where trodden into the earth.

jews fought only for their religion to exist and not to form any semblence of forming a nation, they where happy to live in any society as long as they could practice their religious beliefs.

Nationalism wasn't an ideology until the 1700s-1800s. You are talking about Nationalism.

call it what you want, but ancient tribes, city states or whatever, would form a nation/country based on culture.
Take Spain, formed from basically 2 countries with the same cultural makeup but slightly different languages, where they a country or a nation, same thing in my eyes.

if the spartans existed till the middleages as a city state , they would have been called a nation based on their culture. Only time defines the use of the word Nationalism.



[/QUOTE]He won't be leading them to Israel/Palestine, either, which is kinda an action that the Messiah does. When the people realize that Kyle ben Gerald is not the real messiah, the people will either allow his chosen heir to rule, or they will be governed by the Sanhedrin. Or, potentially, both. Who knows. I have a capstone paper to work on, so I'll figure it out after I write 20 pages before Valentine's Day.[/QUOTE]

Ah, On palestine, a culture which had a nation prior to the Romans trying to achieve their own nation today based on their culture,
they will fight forever as a culture to achieve their own nation, while religion is slowly being ignored by the world masses and only used for oneself spiritual guidance.

religions come and go with time, while a person cultural identity will still around

 

[orimazd]

the only motivation religion gives , is spiritual motivation, it does not define who you are as a person, where you come from, what language you speak, and cannot make any nations from religion for example, take a 1000 people with a 1000 cultures who have have the same religion, they will never form a nation because their cultural traits will not entirley merge.

Religion does not necessarily define you as a person, but if people run through your ghetto killing and raping your friends and family and destroying your property because of your religion...btw, what do you believe religiously?

Also BTW, where you come from often determines your religion. Had most of the people I know around here been born to muslim parents in Yemen, they would consider themselves muslim (and they probably would be the people you see burning flags on clips from al-Jazeera).

With the 1000 people of 1000 cultures, they certainly would have something in common: they had been unwittingly placed in a place with 999 other people who probably don't even speak a similar language. They would not form a "nation," but they would form a society of their own, and develop some sort of way of understanding each other (a trade language, you could call it) because humans are social animals. A solitary human probably goes insane compared to other people.

oops I forgot Israel, yea a nation formed by a "gift" from the English, enough said.

and the UN.

take the ancient Greeks, vikings and Romans they where religious, they had 100's of Gods, most likely the same God as we have today, same God as the christians, muslims etc.

The greco-roman pantheon and the people who lived on the other side of the rainbow bridge were indo-European folks with indo-European religions. Look at the greek pantheon and compare it to the hindu pantheon, and you would find it looking very similar. If you read what the greek Philosophers were writing and saying in 500 BC you would find some of their ideas very Vedantic.

Note: I am a religious person, but I believe its way down on my list of importance due to the fact that religion is for my own "spiritual" guidance, to pray when I want to pray, to attend mass when i want to attend and not to listen to someone who is attepting to drive me in one direction which would not suit me. "someones" who drive masses in one direction are basically militant people.
One believes who they want to believe, its the same God to me, regardless of religion.

Right. But you live in [insert your home country], and it is February 13, two thousand and seven years after the birth of Jesus. One thousand four hundred after the Hijira, or whatever Mohammed's march from Mecca to Medina is called. Not far short of six hundred years after the beginning of the time period of the game we are working on. Things have changed, and while a person generally determines what they believe on their own and always has, it has always been socially conducive to at least outside of your house believe what everybody else believes.

You are the product of a secular culture, I presume. (I am, but then people think I am wierd)

jewish religion, Hebrew culture or now israeli culture. do we have a christian culture, buddhist culture etc or are you trying to say jewish religious practices?

No, there is no "Christian culture," but Christianity isn't also considered an Ethnic group like being a Jew is. Specifically, at this time you could divide up the "Jewish culture" into two parts, that of the Sephardim (who I don't think would be in our game, btw, as the sephardim were jews expelled from Iberia after spain pushed out all the moors...well, they are Cordovan Jews, I guess) and that of the Ashkenazim (the Eastern European Jews).

yea, i heard of them, salesmen , sometimes selling bad goods.

What do you mean?

these messiah's are called guerrilla fighters, rebels, freedom fighters. they are not religously based, but based on the masses who where trodden into the earth.

Who says that if it is the latter they can't think of themselves as the former? Fighting against oppression doesn't entail a marxist lack of religion.

jews fought only for their religion to exist and not to form any semblence of forming a nation, they where happy to live in any society as long as they could practice their religious beliefs.

Yes, but one charismatic person can make people do things they wouldn't ever normally dream of doing.

call it what you want, but ancient tribes, city states or whatever, would form a nation/country based on culture.

Trade too.

Take Spain, formed from basically 2 countries with the same cultural makeup but slightly different languages, where they a country or a nation, same thing in my eyes.

Three ethnic groups, kinda--yes, you have the Castilians and the Catalans, but also the Basque. There is a reason Galicia looks like Gaul, and Eire in our game has an option to prove it. If you want to say countries, Castilla y Leon was two separate "countries" as well--Castilla, and Leon (which the former broke off of and eventually conquered).

if the spartans existed till the middleages as a city state , they would have been called a nation based on their culture. Only time defines the use of the word Nationalism.

Tell me, do you think that France had one homogenous structure? (Well, by the way I phrased the question, even if you didn't know you could guess that the answer is no...and what is Occitania in our game if it is?)

Ah, On palestine, a culture which had a nation prior to the Romans trying to achieve their own nation today based on their culture,
they will fight forever as a culture to achieve their own nation, while religion is slowly being ignored by the world masses and only used for oneself spiritual guidance.

What you say!? (take off every zig)

religions come and go with time, while a person cultural identity will still around

If you are Persian, yes. Tell Egyptians that they are the same cultural identity that built the pyramids. Religion had little to do with it.

 

[Toio]

Religion does not necessarily define you as a person, but if people run through your ghetto killing and raping your friends and family and destroying your property because of your religion...btw, what do you believe religiously?

I believe all religions teach you to respect all man regardless, its the messiahs/priests (salesmen) that "sell" the people wrong or right thoughts.

take for example orthodox and christian , why a division when we beleive in the same god, why the division between christian and muslim when we beleive in the same god ( although muslim does not believe in the christian son of God, which is the issue)

Also BTW, where you come from often determines your religion. Had most of the people I know around here been born to muslim parents in Yemen, they would consider themselves muslim (and they probably would be the people you see burning flags on clips from al-Jazeera).

Put it this way, what we have today was what was thousands of years ago, culture rules over religion (as it should) , is this person you know a Georgian or a muslim first ?. the answer for peace on earth should be Georgian as all rules for governing and maintaining order are based on nations/countries deriving from culture.
problem with society today is that half the world thinks nationally first and the other half religious first and the 2 will never meet in agreement.

With the 1000 people of 1000 cultures, they certainly would have something in common: they had been unwittingly placed in a place with 999 other people who probably don't even speak a similar language. They would not form a "nation," but they would form a society of their own, and develop some sort of way of understanding each other (a trade language, you could call it) because humans are social animals. A solitary human probably goes insane compared to other people.

yes but still no country will exist because even though they are religiously tied the culture would divide them

and the UN.

IIRC, 1948 for israel and 1949 for UN ( united nations , not a united religions, strange that)

The greco-roman pantheon and the people who lived on the other side of the rainbow bridge were indo-European folks with indo-European religions. Look at the greek pantheon and compare it to the hindu pantheon, and you would find it looking very similar. If you read what the greek Philosophers were writing and saying in 500 BC you would find some of their ideas very Vedantic.

but you are talking about the natural migration of culture from continent to continent, like the ancient people of modern turkey are not in turkey anymore but have moved westward and taken their culture with them.

No, there is no "Christian culture," but Christianity isn't also considered an Ethnic group like being a Jew is. Specifically, at this time you could divide up the "Jewish culture" into two parts, that of the Sephardim (who I don't think would be in our game, btw, as the sephardim were jews expelled from Iberia after spain pushed out all the moors...well, they are Cordovan Jews, I guess) and that of the Ashkenazim (the Eastern European Jews).

put it this way, being called a jew by ancient standards was because this "person" would not take the cultural mantle of the society he was living, first and foremost and hence the cultural rules of the nation/country defined this person as a jew based on his religion. If this "person" was to declare that he was first and foremost a Greek for example living in greece then his religious practices would be ignored, this was society how it was in the past.

What do you mean?

read at top

Who says that if it is the latter they can't think of themselves as the former? Fighting against oppression doesn't entail a marxist lack of religion.

well , taking up the war mantle of religion , when religion is supposed to practice peace and tolerance is wrong, do you agree?

Three ethnic groups, kinda--yes, you have the Castilians and the Catalans, but also the Basque. There is a reason Galicia looks like Gaul, and Eire in our game has an option to prove it. If you want to say countries, Castilla y Leon was two separate "countries" as well--Castilla, and Leon (which the former broke off of and eventually conquered).

yes , I know hannibal had celtic troops from Galicia, but all europe at one time was celtic , this is migration of people

Tell me, do you think that France had one homogenous structure? (Well, by the way I phrased the question, even if you didn't know you could guess that the answer is no...and what is Occitania in our game if it is?)

I was in France 6 months ago, and they have 3 internal dictionary for their language and cultural differences
FRA - SAV
FRA - Occitan
FRA - brittany

and yet Italy has 1 only, Venetian-italian. does this mean that Italy is culturally more united than France , NO . I am only speaking about the order of society as it was in the past and what it should still be in the present , that is , based culturally first and foremost before religion

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I want to report progress on the map

North America, British Isles, France, Spain, HRE, Balkans and Byzantines and KOJ are set up geographically.

HRE looks a bit confused as I tried to leave minor states as independent states when I could. For Example: Mainz and Pfalz are Bavarian in EU2 interregnum. They are one province minors now in EU3 and instead I have taken territory from multi province minors in the vicinity and given it to Bavaria.

Overall, with a great deal many new cultures we will need to think through really well as to how we want to GROUP together different cultures. Since a culture from a different culture group gives a 30% malus and a culture from your own gives 10% malus.

Another question I have is in EU3 there is an Austrian subculture of german culture. since there is no Austria I am thinking of breaking the culture up to styrian and tyrollian or some such with proper spelling. I do not know what to do about Wien. it is austrian subculture in posession of Bohemia.

This does not include contested province claims (that is everyone has a shield on their occupying territory. I am doing it this way for now. Vassalages, Royal marriages and Alliances and Wars are not set up.)

Tarakan (Why am I thinking of that Turkish singer tarkan?anyway...) Im very intrested with what your doing, and I already have EUIII and Im trying to learn how to script some events (I succesfully added a Gibraltar sound toll all by myself with a description and everything! I felt proud) could you send me your work? my email is saracenknight2003@hotmail.com

If you can of course, I would really like to help.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

download http://www.acutesoftware.com.au/dnote.html

allows easy modification of text files like those province files and country files and such

look here on how to add a country

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281737

there is folder named

C:\Program Files\Paradox Interactive\Europa Universalis III\mod\Interregnum\localisation

(i did not spell it, paradox did)

for any country you add, do a localization in your own file, for example titled calipah.csv or something like that. game finds it automatically. interregnum master file is named interregnum.csv. the text.csv is the paradox file. i think i made some changes there too. there are other csv files in the same directory for now.

I had to revert the American changes and some Iberia due to me doing something with mass renaming I should not have to. also hre is bothering me. I have been leaving smallest minors already in eu3 to interregnum. so it needs tweaking and tweaking.

check the "countries" subfolder to see if the country you want to change exists

I if I were you I would start with those you have most interest in, which I would assume to be muslim countries. I continue on the HRE, Italy, Russian plain and Central Asia and the Americas.

I am just setting up countries now leaving as many existing minors as there are

here is the EU3_Interregnum .0001 pre-alpha (Currently a glorified mapmod of mostly Europe)

http://www.russiananimation.com/mods/interregnum

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Italy & Russian plain is set up.

Calipah any news?