Is the EU an Empire?

[wingo]

Any issue with current situation? Because they might be bankrupt, but at least they have full territorial sovereignty. Belarus is poorer, but it has full territorial sovereignty and doesn't have to abide by an organization's legislation which the government and the people disagree with. Czech was richer under Austria than after it, but was it better for Czechs? Also I don't see what this has to do with the EU being an empire

And this is the bullshit your (well, a lot of ours as well) politicians keep spreading. All countries need to abide by several international legislations, unless they want to become international pariahs like Northern Korea, and that is not counting all those bilateral and multinational agreements on top of that. Belarus in particular is a very poor choice as it does not have much more freedom than Czechs have, given they are in the CIS and closely cooperate with Russia on several levels including military and cannot do willy-nilly anything anytime they want. Yes, you can say they can always reject things, but there will be consequences - just like the Czechs can (and do) reject things and should expect consequences. Although I think consequences from the EU are much less severe than what you could expect from Russia

 

[wingo]

The problem isn't raising national Austrian flag or German one.
The problem is to reform EU into Austrian-like confederacy of states.
With both Austrian and German governace.
I'm monarchist to some degree, with making the monarch being executive power but giving the parliament whole legislature.
I understand that old pre1914 competition between Germans and Austrians who is better democratic state, but I'm not against the EU.
It is a must to keep peace and stability in Europe and give ous some level of international importance, with the only problem being if the model is more decentralized or centralized one.

I understand now what you want and I think the whole confederacy or union style is what pro-EU politicians at the top are trying to achieve (but not the monarchy part), but choosing Austrian Empire as an example is hurting your point - Austrian Empire was centralized (it was never a confederacy, and even the limited autonomy of the Hungarian part was achieved through several armed rebellions), backward, opressive and based on historical claims. In my mind, EU is the complete opposite of that.

 

[adriankowaty]

I understand now what you want and I think the whole confederacy or union style is what pro-EU politicians at the top are trying to achieve (but not the monarchy part), but choosing Austrian Empire as an example is hurting your point - Austrian Empire was centralized (it was never a confederacy, and even the limited autonomy of the Hungarian part was achieved through several armed rebellions), backward, opressive and based on historical claims. In my mind, EU is the complete opposite of that.

Well, opinion of Austria depends on which region of the former Dual Monarchy you're living.
It does not change however the matter that Europe is a must to maintain if you'd want to be something more than another puppet's mosaic of the USA or Russia.
Also, if may I agree that pre-1867 Austria was a centralistic state, after enstablishing Dual Monarchy it followed trends of same authonomy.
The EU is now in the same situation as Austria before 1914: we've conflict between center and peripheries and nationalistic populists supported by foreign powers (in Austria's case, Romanians in Transilvania and Ruthenians/Ukrainians in Galicia) with unsolved problem of union members' rights and management.
I'm definetely against the these that postBachs Austria was exacly the same state. They'd exacly the same problems.
It's only matter - for greater good - how to solve them.

 

[viale]

I think you're thinking too small in restoring the Austrian-Hungarian empire Adriankowaty. What we need to do, is to become a real empire through a dual-monarchy of France-Germany: a Bourbon-Hohenzollern line.

Then we divide the small nations east of the Rhine such as Denmark, Silesia, Bohemia, Austria etc. into German Bundeslände and everything West of the Rhine, such as Belgium, Iberia, England etc. into French Départements. Italy could probably be divided between German bundeslände, French départements and Papal territories.

Further down the line we introduce the Romanovs(we should be able to find a cadet branch somewhere) into the monarchy and create the rare triple-monachy(Which, as a concept, I believe was discussed In Austria-Hungary once) and secure peace in Europe forever.

You can't be an Empire without an Emperor, it's unnatural and an abomination.

 

[Anatur]

I could understand you if you wanted to return the "good old days" of the communist block under USSR (well most people remember only the later years which were relatively peaceful and without much repression, unlike the 50s), but Austria? The monarchy that in the end managed to be even more inept than the Russians and only matched by the Ottomans despite having a much better starting position? Some very rosy tinted glasses you wear
You can read what the Czechs think about anyone governing them from Adamgerd (and I do think he catches the public mood pretty well, but there IS a sizeable minority there which appreciates what EU does for them), and I can safely say a referendum about joining Austria-Hungary would fail spectacularly in Slovakia. The spectacular part would be mostly because of the Hungarian part (and I have a feeling all the slavic nations historically under the Hungarian part of the empire have similar feelings), but it would fail even with just Austria. Yes, there is also a lot of pub talk about badly governing ourselves etc. and it is mostly true, but a referendum is a different beast altogether. I think a referendum about remaining in the EU would probably fail at this time, but a referendum about leaving would definitely fail. We are just bad at referendums (there is a 50% quorum required), the two about joining EU and NATO were the only successfull ones in history

In the end, the EU is a much better alternative, and for you probably bonus points for it still being mostly led by the Germans

From a Balkan perspective the Austrians helped us fight off the Ottoman invasions and set up the foundations of our future states in terms of infrastructure,culture and the legal system.

Not to mention the prettiest parts of my country were constructed during that era.

As such living here you kind of get the impression that the people who use to rule you 100 years ago were more competent than the ones ruling you now.

It isnt helped by the fact that masses of my people had to go to work in Austria and Germany because the economy is so bad,as such bringing Austria to us would seem like a solution.

And i didnt say Austria-Hungary,i said the Austrian Empire.

The bonus part is that the Austrian Empire didnt give the Hungarians any special treatment,included Northern Italy and didnt include Bosnia.

I understand now what you want and I think the whole confederacy or union style is what pro-EU politicians at the top are trying to achieve (but not the monarchy part), but choosing Austrian Empire as an example is hurting your point - Austrian Empire was centralized (it was never a confederacy, and even the limited autonomy of the Hungarian part was achieved through several armed rebellions), backward, opressive and based on historical claims. In my mind, EU is the complete opposite of that.

From my perspective being centralized and oppressive and run by a bunch of Germanic people is a positive.

Id be fine with a sort of Mittleuropa thing with the Germanics and Central Europe tied together and rejecting everyone else,since at this point most of them are just dead weight or more trouble than they are worth.

 

[wingo]

We were in a similar boat at the turn of the century with the feeling that the previous regime was maybe better, they built things and currently people at the top are just stealing what was already built, and shortly after joining EU it was not much better. Give it more time. Here the guys at the top are as corrupt as ever (arguably even more so than the bunch at the turn of the millenium), but things are much better in the developed regions, although some regions are still pretty poor - but perspective is helpful, compared to Ukraine which is just next door, even in those poor regions life is still much, MUCH better. Also, about things remembering Austrian Empire - have you been to UK? Large areas there look like they remember the Industrial revolution, it is completely normal that the infrastructure is not completely replaced every 20 years
Society has huge momentum and needs a lot of time to adapt, but stability and mutually beneficial trade brings prosperity eventually despite the best efforts of politicians if they are limited in their extremes, just like EU member states are. You guys had a huge destructive civil war after all, and are a EU member much, much shorter time. Yes, Austria is in much better state currently, but their economy did not have to do two separate 180° turns and was kickstarted by the Americans after WW2.

 

[Herbert West]

Who left the loony bin unlocked?

 

[pithorr]

Who left the loony bin unlocked?

Tsss, this discussion by adrian, Adamgerd and Anatur had to be the purest delight and it delivered.
Also, a lot of people not familiar so much in the matter may learn a lot from such great internetz sources, don't they?

 

[adriankowaty]

Tsss, this discussion by adrian, Adamgerd and Anatur had to be the purest delight and it delivered.
Also, a lot of people not familiar so much in the matter may learn a lot from such great internetz sources, don't they?

Is that meaning than I'm dumb?

 

[pithorr]

Is that meaning than I'm dumb?

No, rather that you've just had funny views

 

[adriankowaty]

I think you're thinking too small in restoring the Austrian-Hungarian empire Adriankowaty. What we need to do, is to become a real empire through a dual-monarchy of France-Germany: a Bourbon-Hohenzollern line.

Then we divide the small nations east of the Rhine such as Denmark, Silesia, Bohemia, Austria etc. into German Bundeslände and everything West of the Rhine, such as Belgium, Iberia, England etc. into French Départements. Italy could probably be divided between German bundeslände, French départements and Papal territories.

Further down the line we introduce the Romanovs(we should be able to find a cadet branch somewhere) into the monarchy and create the rare triple-monachy(Which, as a concept, I believe was discussed In Austria-Hungary once) and secure peace in Europe forever.

You can't be an Empire without an Emperor, it's unnatural and an abomination.

I don't need a leader state. The monarch should only be executive with whole power inside parliament like in normal parliamentary monarchies.
The legislature should be major part of the state.
You can't manage good old Germany without letting particular Bundeslände having sovereing power. It should be kept in balance.
With less centralistic approach.

 

[adriankowaty]

No, rather that you've just had funny views

High autist, old landlord family member with high sense of democratic principle.
And scientophilia to some degree.

 

[Anatur]

No, rather that you've just had funny views

The Austrian Empire is my moderate suggestion which would upset the least amount of people while hopefully improving living standards for everyone.

My not-so-moderate suggestion for resolving my countries issues is this:

 

[pithorr]

High autist, old landlord family member with high sense of democratic principle.
And scientophilia to some degree.

You forgot your lefty bias
OK, the fun was not you alone but all you three combined* together

Anyway, you *) proved that the Slavs shouldn't be allowed for a free speech though

 

[adriankowaty]

You forgot your lefty bias
OK, the fun was not you alone but all you three combined* together

Anyway, you *) proved that the Slavs shouldn't be allowed for a free speech though

What is your ideology then?

 

[adriankowaty]

The Austrian Empire is my moderate suggestion which would upset the least amount of people while hopefully improving living standards for everyone.

My not-so-moderate suggestion for resolving my countries issues is this:

Out of that.
By all means.
Give your Russian sphere away.

 

[Anatur]

Out of that.
By all means.
Give your Russian sphere away.

Im not sure i understand that collection of sentences.

 

[adriankowaty]

Im not sure i understand that collection of sentences.

I neither want nor do supporting being that forsaken country in Soviet/Russian sphere.
And do NOT support the commies nor PiSists.
The EU should stay and there's no place for Russian puppet system.

 

[Anatur]

I neither want nor do supporting being that forsaken country in Soviet/Russian sphere.
And do NOT support the commies nor PiSists.
The EU should stay and there's no place for Russian puppet system.

Ah.
Well thats a little prejudice.
Well for my part i got a deadline to deal with,after which my country will have gone passed the critical limit of demographic collapse and would have ceased being a country,something the EU membership doesnt seem to be averting in the slightest.
With that in mind im open to many different options,what ever saves us from ending up in the dust bin of history.

 

[adriankowaty]

Ah.
Well thats a little prejudice.
Well for my part i got a deadline to deal with,after which my country will have gone passed the critical limit of demographic collapse and would have ceased being a country,something the EU membership doesnt seem to be averting in the slightest.
With that in mind im open to many different options,what ever saves us from ending up in the dust bin of history.

Then leave if you want. But don't force other countries to do so.