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richvh

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From the main thread:
Seems like every time jus uxoris is invoked, the succession law changes to gavelkind.

I'm thinking... the MB-GOTW stuff should be changed from a decision to a plot, or possibly a faction, so it doesn't always blindside you. What do you think?
I think that could work. I haven't had the experience of being in the receiving end of one, but making it a plot theoretically could make it effectively unenforceable if you're currently pursuing an assassination plot, of which I imagine many players would be ^_^
That said, it certainly is justifiable as a "plot", especially in the LI-verse since we can probably reason out that the husband's authority would need not necessarily be as clear cut as with conventional history.

that said, post-Charlemagne, if I understand right, gavelkind becomes "elective gavelkind" right? that would make gavelkind a bit better (though that's still a different concern :laugh:)

I've rewritten the usurp_spouse decision into a plot:
Code:
# Plot tags need to start with 'plot_'

# Supported types:
# character, spouse, rivals, friends, liege_titles, vassal_titles, realm_titles, realm_characters, realm_characters_plus, independent_rulers

###############
# PLOTS
###############
plot_usurp_wife = {
	type = liege_titles
	
	#Plotter scope
	potential = {
		is_female = no
		is_feudal = yes
		prisoner = no
		is_married = yes
		is_primary_war_attacker = no
		is_primary_war_defender = no
		NOT = { has_character_modifier = failed_to_usurp_spouse }
		NOT = { has_character_flag = usurped_my_wife }
		any_spouse = {
			is_female = yes
			is_feudal = yes
			ROOT = {
				any_liege = {
					character = PREVPREV
				}
			}
			OR = {
				capital_scope = {
					culture_group = ROOT
				}
				culture_group = ROOT
				ROOT = {
					OR = {
						any_realm_province = {
							culture_group = ROOT
						}
						any_demesne_province = {
							any_neighbor_province = {
								culture_group = ROOT
							}
						}
						trait = ambitious
						trait = gregarious
					}
				}
			}
			is_primary_war_attacker = no
			is_primary_war_defender = no
			is_pregnant = no
			NOT = {
				has_law = true_cognatic_succession
				has_law = enatic_cognatic_succession
				has_law = enatic_succession
			}
		}
	}
	#Target scope
	allow = {
		holder_scope = {
			any_spouse = {
				character = FROM
			}
			FROM = {
				any_liege = PREV
				OR = {
					is_ruler = no
					demesne_efficiency = 1.0
				}
				NOT = {
					trait = inbred
					trait = weak
					trait = incapable
					trait = slow
					trait = bastard
					trait = stressed
					trait = depressed
					trait = imbecile
					trait = content
					trait = celibate
					health_traits = 1
					trait = naive_appeaser
					trait = detached_priest
					AND = {
						NOT = {
							has_law = agnatic_succession
							OR = {
								AND = {
									trait = humble
									PREV = {
										trait = proud
									}
								}
								AND = {
									trait = craven
									PREV = {
										trait = brave
									}
								}
								AND = {
									trait = slothful
									PREV = {
										trait = diligent
									}
								}
								AND = {
									trait = shy
									PREV = {
										trait = gregarious
									}
								}
							}
						}
					}
				}
			}
			is_female = yes
			primary_title = {
				higher_tier_than = baron
			}
			OR = {
				AND = {
					NOT = {
						trait = grey_eminence
					}
					OR = {
						NOT = {
							trait = ambitious
						}
						FROM = {
							trait = ambitious
						}
					}
					OR = {
						NOT = {
							trait = genius
						}
						spouse = {
							trait = genius
						}
					}
				}
				trait = infirm
				trait = weak
				trait = incapable
				trait = depressed
				trait = blinded
				trait = content
				trait = drunkard
				trait = maimed
				trait = lunatic
				trait = possessed
				trait = syphilitic
				trait = leper
				trait = imbecile
				trait = inbred
				trait = slow
				trait = trusting
				AND = {
					trait = shy
					trait = craven
				}
				AND = {
					trait = shy
					trait = humble
				}
				AND = {
					trait = craven
					trait = humble
				}
			}
			NOT = {
				AND = {
					NOT = {
						has_law = agnatic_succession
					}
					martial = 8
					intrigue = 8
					OR = {
						AND = {
							trait = brave
							trait = diligent
							NOT = {
								trait = humble
								trait = content
								trait = trusting
							}
						}
						AND = {
							trait = diligent
							trait = proud
							NOT = {
								trait = craven
								trait = content
								trait = trusting
							}
						}
						AND = {
							trait = brave
							trait = proud
							NOT = {
								trait = slothful
								trait = humble
								trait = trusting
							}
						}
					}
				}
			}
		}
		FROM = {
			prestige = 1
		}
	}
	chance = {
		factor = 20
		modifier = {
			factor = 0
				holder_scope = {
					reverse_opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = 50
					}
				}
			}
		}
	}
	success = {
		holder = FROM
	}
	abort = {
		FROM = {
			is_married = no
			trait = incapable
		}
		holder_scope = {
			NOT = {
				any_spouse = {
					character = FROM
				}
			}
		}
	}
	abort_effect = {
		FROM = {
			hidden_tooltip = {
				add_character_modifier = {
					name = failed_to_usurp_wife
					days = 1825
				}
			}
			clr_character_flag = plot_usurp_wife_decision_taken
		}
	}
	effect = {
		FROM = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					NOT = {
						intrigue = 10
					}
				}
				change_intrigue = 1
			}
			any_plot_backer = {
				reverse_opinion = {
					who = FROM
					modifier = opinion_grateful
					years = 5
				}
			}
			set_character_flag = usurped_my_wife
		}
	}
}
Still have to rework the events so the main one isn't triggered from the decision, but be an MTTH thing triggered on plot power. Thoughts?

Edit: forgot the abort block.
Edit 2: a couple other tweaks
 
Last edited:
A decision to go ahead with the plot:
Code:
plot_decisions = {
	plot_usurp_wife_decision = {
		potential = {
			is_married = yes
			plot_target_char = {
				any_spouse = {
					character = ROOT
				}
			}
			has_plot = plot_usurp_wife
			NOT = {
				has_character_flag = plot_usurp_wife_decision_taken
			}
		}
		allow = {
			OR = {
				AND = {
					plot_power = 1.0
					num_of_plot_backers = 1
					plot_target_char = {
						prisoner = no
					}
				}
				AND = {
					plot_target_char = {
						prisoner = yes
						host = {
							character = ROOT
						}
					}
				}
			}
			plot_target_char = {
				NOT = {
					any_war = {
						defender = {
							character = PREVPREV
						}
					}
					any_war = {
						attacker = {
							character = PREVPREV
						}
					}
				}
			}
		}
		effect = {
			plot_target_character = {
				character_event = {
					id = DAMO100
					tooltip = DAMO100TP
				}
			}
			hidden_tooltip = {
				set_character_flag = plot_usurp_wife_decision_taken
				activate_plot = yes
			}
		}
		revoke_allowed = {
			always = no
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
			modifier = {
				factor = 0
				trait = content
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 0
				NOT = {
					plot_power = 1.5
				}
			}
		}
	}
}
Now before I proceed to the MB-GOTW decisions for the wife to regain control (which I think should also be a combination of plots and decisions), I'd like some discussion of what factors would affect the wife's ability to regain power over her titles. Any comments and criticism of what I've posted above would also be welcome.
 
In history, marrying a woman was often equivalent of de facto, in not de jure, usurping her. See the complex situation with Louis XII ruling over Britanny in Anne of Britanny's name. And that was a strong, ambitious ruler. There is no power without third parts acknowledging it, and in pre-modern, patriarchal societies, men acknowledging a married woman's authority was... limited.

So in practice, only ambitious women should be able to resist the plot.

Then attributes should help, like high diplomacy and/or intrigue.

Just my 2 cents for the sake of discussion... :)
 
I changed the conditions from the MB-GOTW decision (which was basically "a ruler can usurp the titles of his wife") to "a man can plot to usurp the titles of his wife who is his liege" provided a whole bunch of conditions are met, which are basically the same in both versions.

I think that prestige should also factor into the chances of resisting (or rather recovering from) the usurpation.
 
OK, after more thought, I've identified a number of cases where jus uxoris could be applied, listed them with my opinion on whether it should be through plot, decision or faction, and would like to get other's thoughts.

  • Husband is courtier in wife's court. Plot.
  • Husband is an indirect vassal of wife. Plot. (can use same code as above)
  • Husband is direct vassal of wife. Faction or plot (if plot, can use same code as above cases)
  • Husband is in same realm as wife, no liege-vassal relationship. Plot (needs different plot code)
  • Husband is direct liege of wife. Decision or plot (if plot needs separate plot code)
  • Husband is indirect liege of wife. Plot (can use same plot code as above)
  • Husband is in different realm from wife, wife is independent. Plot (separate plot code needed)
  • Husband is in different realm from wife, wife is not independent. Not possible (or only possible if wife's realm has low crown authority)

Similarly, there should be serious consequences if the attempt is made and foiled, with divorce, war, imprisonment, even banishing or execution possibilities, depending on relationship.
 
Every thing here looks very logical and well-thought of.

If I had to make a suggestion, I would that in the case of "Husband is in different realm from wife, wife is independent.", if the wife is of lower tier, she could happily become vassal to benefit from protection of her husband. No need to usurp her really, then. But you may consider that this is already covered by the current mechanics.
 
I think current mechanics only allow the vassalization if both husband and wife are in the same realm with same liege (and I'm not sure it's available even then), or both are independent. Allowing vassalization of an independent wife's realm through jus uxoris would, I think, best be handled by decision.

Any opinion on how best to handle the ones where I listed two possibilities?
 
My proposals where you have an alternative:
[*]Husband is direct vassal of wife. Faction or plot (if plot, can use same code as above cases) <-- plot: this action is all about intrigue rather than diplomacy
[*]Husband is direct liege of wife. Decision or plot (if plot needs separate plot code) <-- decision: you're (supposed to be) the boss. Of course let's see how she tolerates your authority...
 
There seems to be no way no way to target an independent ruler's title with a plot (or any ruler in a different realm for that matter...) I think in this case, rather than leading to a coup decision, a weak claim is given on a successful plot, and an ultimatum decision similar to a faction war ultimatum can be used, leading to a claim war if refused. Thoughts?
 
This version of the plot to take control of your wife's primary title seems to be working:
Code:
plot_usurp_liege_wife = {
	type = liege_titles
	vassal_intrigue_plot = yes
	intrigue_plot = yes
	
	#Plotter scope
	potential = {
		is_female = no
		is_patrician = no
		prisoner = no
		is_married = yes
		is_primary_war_attacker = no
		is_primary_war_defender = no
		NOT = { has_character_modifier = failed_to_usurp_wife }
		NOT = { has_character_flag = usurped_my_wife }
		NOT = {
			trait = inbred
			trait = weak
			trait = incapable
			trait = slow
			trait = bastard
			trait = stressed
			trait = depressed
			trait = imbecile
			trait = content
			trait = eunuch
			health_traits = 1
			trait = naive_appeaser
			trait = detached_priest
		}
		prestige = 1
	}
	
	#Target scope
	allow = {
		holder_scope = {
			is_female = yes
			is_feudal = yes
			is_patrician = no
			is_pregnant = no
			is_primary_war_attacker = no
			is_primary_war_defender = no
			NOT = {
				has_law = enatic_cognatic_succession
				has_law = enatic_succession
			}
			primary_title = {
				higher_tier_than = baron
				title = PREVPREV
			}
			any_spouse = {
				character = FROM
			}
			FROM = {
				OR = {
					AND = {
						is_ruler = no
						employer = {
							character = PREVPREV
						}
					}
					AND = {
						is_landed = yes
						is_feudal = yes
						is_patrician = no
						any_liege = {
							character = PREVPREV
						}
						demesne_efficiency = 1.0
					}
				}
			}
			OR = {
				AND = {
					culture_group = FROM
					religion_group = FROM
				}
				capital_scope = {
					culture_group = FROM
					religion_group = FROM
				}
				dynasty = FROM
				FROM = {
					is_landed = yes
					OR = {
						any_realm_province = {
							culture_group = PREVPREV
							religion_group = PREVPREV
						}
						any_demesne_province = {
							any_neighbor_province = {
								culture_group = PREVPREVPREV
								religion_group = PREVPREVPREV
							}
						}
					}
				}
				FROM = {
					OR = {
						trait = ambitious
						trait = gregarious
					}
				}
			}
			NOT = {
				AND = {
					trait = proud
					FROM = {
						trait = humble
					}
				}
				AND = {
					trait = brave
					FROM = {
						trait = craven
					}
				}
				AND = {
					trait = diligent
					FROM = {
						trait = slothful
					}
				}
				AND = {
					trait = gregarious
					FROM = {
						trait = shy
					}
				}
			}
			OR = {
				AND = {
					NOT = {
						trait = grey_eminence
					}
					OR = {
						NOT = {
							trait = ambitious
						}
						FROM = {
							trait = ambitious
						}
					}
					OR = {
						NOT = {
							trait = genius
						}
						FROM = {
							trait = genius
						}
					}
				}
				trait = infirm
				trait = weak
				trait = incapable
				trait = depressed
				trait = blinded
				trait = content
				trait = drunkard
				trait = maimed
				trait = lunatic
				trait = possessed
				trait = syphilitic
				trait = leper
				trait = imbecile
				trait = inbred
				trait = slow
				trait = trusting
				AND = {
					trait = shy
					trait = craven
				}
				AND = {
					trait = shy
					trait = humble
				}
				AND = {
					trait = craven
					trait = humble
				}
			}
			OR = {
				has_law = agnatic_succession
				has_law = cognatic_succession
				NOT = {
					diplomacy = 8
					intrigue = 8
				}
				AND = {
					NOT = {
						trait = brave
						trait = diligent
						NOT = {
							trait = humble
							trait = content
							trait = trusting
						}
					}
					AND = {
						trait = diligent
						trait = proud
						NOT = {
							trait = craven
							trait = content
							trait = trusting
						}
					}
					AND = {
						trait = brave
						trait = proud
						NOT = {
							trait = slothful
							trait = humble
							trait = trusting
						}
					}
				}
			}
		}
	}
	chance = {
		factor = 20
		modifier = {
			factor = 0
			holder_scope = {
				reverse_opinion = {
					who = FROM
					value = 50
				}
			}
		}
	}
	success = {
		holder = FROM
	}
	abort = {
		OR = {
			FROM = {
				is_married = no
				trait = incapable
			}
			holder_scope = {
				NOT = {
					any_spouse = {
						character = FROM
					}
					character = FROM
				}
			}
		}
	}
	abort_effect = {
		FROM = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					is_married = yes
				}
				hidden_tooltip = {
					add_character_modifier = {
						name = failed_to_usurp_wife
						days = 1825
						hidden = yes
					}
				}
			}
			clr_character_flag = plot_usurp_wife_decision_taken
		}
	}
	effect = {
		FROM = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					NOT = {
						intrigue = 10
					}
				}
				change_intrigue = 1
			}
			any_plot_backer = {
				reverse_opinion = {
					who = FROM
					modifier = opinion_grateful
					years = 5
				}
			}
			set_character_flag = usurped_my_wife
		}
	}
}
 
I just went through and cleaned up/bug fixed MB-GOTW and committed it. I'll add the new plots and associated decisions later, when I have them all written.
 
We have gender equality, for select religions. To have gender equality for all is counter to the LI philosophy.