Lifeless

[jpr123]

Is it just me or are the characters in Sengoku utterly lifeless? For a character driven game all the characters seem to be completely forgettable, and don't seem to interact with each other at all. I mean when I marry some woman with good stats, I'm done with her and never have to interact with her again. She can just go in the cupboard and be forgotten about. They don't even get pregnant and kids seem to pop out of the ground. Compare that to CK1 where I could marry a woman with great stats and make her my spy master. But because she has the trait lustful she then cheats on me with another court member, which I find out about, and I have the guy beheaded. This gives me the arbitrary trait, and makes her my rival. She can then cause all sorts of trouble, like spreading bad rumours about me causing me to lose prestige or perhaps even try and have me assasinated. The characters really come alive, and are constantly interacting, and I certainly remember my bitch of a wives name and rue the day I married her. I couldn't name a single wife of any of my rulers in Sengoku. Theres no reason to even bother looking at it, let alone remembering it.

In Sengoku traits are all boreing. Theres no reason to hover the mouse over them and read them. Apart from 2 or 3, like grey eminance and proud, they just add stats, so I just look at the stats instead and ignore traits. What happened to the really nice descriptions that were in CK1? For example the one for blind that describes its effect on the characters life and even gives you examples of a famous Venetian doge who was a great ruler and a blind Bohemian king who even fought in battles. Another thing that makes traits boreing is the random way they are handed out. Whereas in CK1 you would gain traits through your actions, like gaining arbitrary for beheading people. There were many events where you often had a choice between a short term reward which gave you a negative trait or a short term penalty for a nicer trait. And this worked great, you had to choose how you wanted your character to develop, but at the same time because there was only a % chance of gaining the traits you couldn't pick and choose exactly what you wanted. In Sengoku your just randomly told "You are now arbitrary", what? Why? I didn't do anything arbitrary... I also got an event saying "Its hard to be proud when I have nothing to be proud of", losing me the proud trait. Now I could have accepted that if perhaps I had lost a load of wars and lost land or been subjugated, but no, since that leader coming to power my clan had quadrupled in size. Don't hit me with random events that contradict things that are actually happening in the game, it breaks all immersion, and reminds you your characters are just the result of someone rolling a dice rather than anything you've done.

I really can't fathom why friends and rivals weren't in this game. Surely they belong here even more than CK, I mean the Onin war that started the Sengoku Jidai was caused by a rivalry between the Hosokawa and Yamana... This just reinforces the feeling that the characters don't interact at all and may as well all be named Clone #1, Clone#2, Clone #3 etc. And that way I might actually be able to remember who is who.

Although I have been having fun playing Sengoku, the characters just feel like a mechanic to exploit much more than actual people who you want to see develop and succeed. After playing for quite a few hours yesterday I decided it was actually a step backwards from CK1 which is now 7 years old. And don't tell me I shouldn't compare the two, because really they are pretty similar, just with Sengoku supposedly having a greater focus on war. Which is kind of odd when you think about how CK1 had like 7 or 8 types of soldiers, instead of 3. It's disappointing because I was hoping this game would be able to stand up on its own rather than just being something to hold fans interest until CK2 is released or a quick buck to help fund its development. I know I'm being overly negative and Sengoku is fun, but it feels like its got alot of untapped potential, because the devs didn't want it to be too close to CK2. So instead they gutted a load of features that would have added to the experience and justified it by charging a lower price. I guess thats what I get for buying a cheaper game and should just stick to the "premium" ones.

TLDR: Characters are boreing and forgettable and the game isn't as fun as CK1.

Anyone else feel this way or just me?

 

[Carewolf2]

CK was exactly the same for the first many patches. Life was slowly added with more and more character content and story paths in later patches. I don't have Sengoku yet, but it sounds like what I expected at launch.

 

[Ordo Impavidus]

When it comes to the women in feudal Japan, the women for the most part, knew their place in life. Even so, I still try to avoid marrying a woman with 'deceitful' trait because whenever I do, I tend to become sick -gaining 'wounded'- or she's passing secrets to a rival clan at night when she should be instead in my bed pleasuring me. I don't have CKI yet, but that game might be representing an entirely different culture wherein a woman's crookedness might be made to seem an admirable attribute.

Also regarding the 'forgettable' characters in Sengoku...I believe in Sengoku the selfless service to the higher order (the state; the clan) was considered admirable and the point of the game. Even so, the "clan leader" is not made to be the point because even he comes second to the state and he would kill himself if it meant that doing so would serve it best.

 

[The Disaster]

I agree with the OP.

If an earlier game also had this issue which was eventually fixed, why is the issue back in Sengoku? CK came out years ago!

 

[jpr123]

Also regarding the 'forgettable' characters in Sengoku...I believe in Sengoku the selfless service to the higher order (the state; the clan) was considered admirable and the point of the game. Even so, the "clan leader" is not made to be the point because even he comes second to the state and he would kill himself if it meant that doing so would serve it best.

Thats an aweful excuse though. "We can't make the characters interesting because historically they weren't meant to be". I mean even if it was the case then don't make a character driven game in a peroid where characters are deliberatly boreing. But I disagree with this anyway, yes supposedly they served the state but in actual fact they were all self serving trying to gain as much power as possible.

 

[chatnoir17]

There are many character events (also about rivals). The problem is that the player doesn't notice what happens by the courtiers and vassals. I hope some refined scripts could improve this issue.
Of course the game needs more depth with more events　than vanilla. However, adding "nice" events is difficult - yes, more difficult for the developers and modders, since unlike CK, Sengoku is not a game of "our history" for the most players. I have to say, many players complain about the lack of events, but they don't know which event is good for Sengoku.

I agree with the OP.

If an earlier game also had this issue which was eventually fixed, why is the issue back in Sengoku? CK came out years ago!

Because CK and Sengoku handle another worlds - Europe/Middle East and Japan - and another periods. It is not simple to adjust CK contents for Sengoku.

 

[Nefaro]

The character side of the game just needs some more filling out. That's progressed some in the first update (and fixed the non-working parts in second).

Hopefully we see another one with a lot more added, too.

 

[unmerged(383227)]

I totally agree with OP, though I haven't voiced the same opinion because I quite like this game. With the new high honor costs I commit seppeku everytime I finish a war so I can declare another one, there is nothing holding me back from killing my supposedly 'beloved' character, as another 'person X' replaces him and the dead guy is forgotten. Kinda strange for a character driven game.

I'm looking forward to these education events and others that'll follow, hopefully the effort put in raising a character will make me care for them and spare them.



Edit: Oh and for events firing randomly, the 'You shouldve sent me proper samurai! relation-15" event should probably not be firing when the clan is at peace. Firing it a day after the levies are disbanded will make it more logical. The greedy trait too could be gained after collecting taxes for a certain time (years) and charitable trait could be gained after sending a certain number of gifts, instead of at random. Brave could be gained when you win a war with small numbers against a big army and craven could be gained if your army retreats when it's bigger than the enemy (both of these should have a %5-10ish chance though, wouldnt be fun if they keep firing) and the trait could be lost when you act unfittingly; say, when you accept subjugation you could lose 'Brave'. Likewise, ammateurish plotter could be gained when you successfully exploit a plot, and there could be an upgraded version like "experienced plotter" that you gain after a number of successful plots. The "kind" trait could also be gained when you don't let your master of arms die when he's in the hands of the rebels', or when you do something similar. There could be a trait called "Ninja Master" or something similar that you gain when you succeed in a certain number of ninja missions, which'll boost your intrigue. Seeing that one's actions reflect on the character might make him more unique and give the feeling that he's the player embodiment. Just some suggestions on my part.

 

[InboxMadness]

I agree fully with OP, Sengoku doesn't come even close to Crusader Kings. Sengoku is simply boring and lifeless, I don't get attached to my characters or Dynasty like in CK at all.

 

[safferli]

It more difficult to get "into" the characters, because they're mostly alien to us (Southern Barbarians). The names alone make it difficult to follow, but there's quite some reward in it if you're at least a bit interested in the time and culture.

 

[jpr123]

I think that has something to do with it, I have trouble pronouncing some of the Japanese names so its harder to remember them. But at the same time when I played a Byzantine or Alan in CK1, where the names were still quite foreign to me, I still remembered alot of the characters. Sometimes I forgot their names, but I remembered that my second brother was an evil bastard who wants to start a civil war and claim my throne, or my chancellor is that incompetant idiot who doesn't know his head from his arse. And if the characters were more developed and memorable I would make more of an effort to remember their names.

 

[Ordo Impavidus]

That's the other point I thought about as I drove myself to work this morning. The culture/names IS alien to most of us and that alone could make it more difficult to get 'into' the characters.

Expecting a CKI or Crusaders game in a Sengoku flavor would only lead to disappointment. Likewise, if I expected a Sengoku in CKI, I would also be disappointed since CKI wouldn't play like the Sengoku I had come to expect.

Of course it is fair to say that I would like one more than the other, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the one that I like the least is....incomplete or broken.

I personally find it difficult to be disappointed with Sengoku because I don't compare it to anything else that I have now or will have later. The developers did a wonderful job in submerging a player within the atmosphere of that time period. Those who resist this virtual assimilation simply choose to resist, but how is that any one else's fault but their own?

 

[jpr123]

Like I said in my last post, Byzantine and Alan names are just as foreign to me, yet they weren't as forgettable as the characters in Sengoku. And of course you can compare Sengoku and CK1, they are both character driven games, where your dynasty is more important than your country. The game play and mechanics are very similar, and the only major difference is the fact that you have specific win conditions in Sengoku.

Alot of Sengoku such as the graphics, sound and names are very immersive, but like I said any immersion is broken when you get a trait thats opposite to how your characters actually acting, or getting a negative relations modifier for a vassal sending low quality samuri despite the fact that they haven't sent any at all because your not at war... I can't help it if this breaks immersion, I can't choose to ignore random none sensical events or traits. If you can, well good for you, but I think the devs need to make alot of changes to try and make this game at least as good as CK1.

 

[5lyder]

Yeah, we need more events.

 

[unmerged(169164)]

It is too early to tell.

If traits are to matter, one needs a game where attributes matter. Not yet fully the case.

Character driven game:

Maybe better to see the game as a dynasty/clan game, a game in which you have to build your dynasty to be successful.
As educational events did not fire, I looked up at the wikia and read that traits are supposed to be several categories: some are inherited, others are the result of education and others are random.
Now, it might lead to select and marry in order to build up on certain attributes, retaining the offspring who show the desired features while withdrawing the others (selective breeding)(hence the retire to monastery feature)

If you want to go the diplomatic way, trying to secure most of the traits that add bonuses to diplo etc...

Causality: Reading the OP, it looks like causality. I never played CK so I cant tell. But I think causality and behaviour should have little room in games like Sengoku. Causal behaviour reflecting on attributes, traits are RPG essence (even if funnily, players have rejected this notion in RPGs, prefering a non causal developpment of their PC but it is another story)

This kind of games are delicate to balance and adding causal developpment paths to balance out is adding difficulty for the general balancing act.
Random should be the key word. Having a trait should increase the likelihood of certain events but not make the acquisition of traits causal to a certain behaviour.
Maybe if two parents are humble, this should increase the educational event probability to fire up.

Randomness expands replayability as you are led to make the most of the current situation, a situation that has not been fully determined by your inputs.
And in Sengoku, opportunity is the essence.

Way too early to tell. Through my games, I dont think the game is fully matured to have a decisive trait developpment. I have not suffered much than that by having a master of ceremony with a 2 diplo attribute. Imo, dont make really sense to ask for a sensible trait approach until the game is ready to support and show the big difference between having a master of ceremonies/arms/the guard incompetent and one proficient.

 

[Llamageddon]

When it comes to the women in feudal Japan, the women for the most part, knew their place in life.

Whilst this is mostly true there were not only famous wives and daughters of samurai but the women of the clan were expected to fight to the death, weapon in hand to protect their home and family.

I'd love it if you could get a special "warrior" trait for female courtiers which would be very rare but allow them to lead armies, also traits allowing them to become spy masters or diplomats. There was at least one famous female spy masters and plenty of other famous female warriors in Japanese history. Found some info if anyone is interested. http://asianhistory.about.com/od/imagegalleries/ss/samuraiwomen.htm

 

[unperson]

Wives can actullay assist in defending sieges. A wife with a high martial skill will improve the castle defences.

 

[Llamageddon]

Good point, though it still makes them more or less a "lifeless" stat boost. How about an event where your wife distinguishes herself in the defence of your castle for instance. I now want to try CK1 and see what all the fuss is about. Friends and Rivals definitely sound like something that should be added to bring some colour into the politics and characters.

 

[unperson]

Good point, though it still makes them more or less a "lifeless" stat boost. How about an event where your wife distinguishes herself in the defence of your castle for instance. I now want to try CK1 and see what all the fuss is about. Friends and Rivals definitely sound like something that should be added to bring some colour into the politics and characters.

Yeah more wife events would be nice, Btw there is already a "rivalry with a neighboring clan leader" event. I saw it in the event files but it never fired for me unfortunatly.

 

[jpr123]

It is too early to tell.

If traits are to matter, one needs a game where attributes matter. Not yet fully the case.

Character driven game:

Maybe better to see the game as a dynasty/clan game, a game in which you have to build your dynasty to be successful.
As educational events did not fire, I looked up at the wikia and read that traits are supposed to be several categories: some are inherited, others are the result of education and others are random.
Now, it might lead to select and marry in order to build up on certain attributes, retaining the offspring who show the desired features while withdrawing the others (selective breeding)(hence the retire to monastery feature)

If you want to go the diplomatic way, trying to secure most of the traits that add bonuses to diplo etc...

Causality: Reading the OP, it looks like causality. I never played CK so I cant tell. But I think causality and behaviour should have little room in games like Sengoku. Causal behaviour reflecting on attributes, traits are RPG essence (even if funnily, players have rejected this notion in RPGs, prefering a non causal developpment of their PC but it is another story)

This kind of games are delicate to balance and adding causal developpment paths to balance out is adding difficulty for the general balancing act.
Random should be the key word. Having a trait should increase the likelihood of certain events but not make the acquisition of traits causal to a certain behaviour.
Maybe if two parents are humble, this should increase the educational event probability to fire up.

Randomness expands replayability as you are led to make the most of the current situation, a situation that has not been fully determined by your inputs.
And in Sengoku, opportunity is the essence.

Way too early to tell. Through my games, I dont think the game is fully matured to have a decisive trait developpment. I have not suffered much than that by having a master of ceremony with a 2 diplo attribute. Imo, dont make really sense to ask for a sensible trait approach until the game is ready to support and show the big difference between having a master of ceremonies/arms/the guard incompetent and one proficient.

You have some good points. Especially the fact that stats don't seem to make a huge difference anyway. An incompetant ruler isn't the huge disadvantage that it should be, and only a half decent diplomacy stat seems necessary to succeed. I'm not even sure how my advisors stats affect me, or what they do. I know I keep harping back to CK1 (mainly because it was such a great game) but if you had an imbred idiot ascend to the throne there was a very real chance that your kingdom would be thrown into civil war, and alternatively with a genius you could suddenly invade that country that is twice your size and has been bullying you all game. Perhaps we don't want stats to be as game changing a this in Sengoku (otherwise its just a game of whoever gets the best ruler wins) but stats need to have a much bigger effect than they currently do, so we actually concerned when we suddenly have an idiot running the clan.

But about causal character development, I have to disagree. As I said in my first post, many of the events that gave you traits had multiple choices as well as only % chances of getting each trait. If you want to take the option more likely to give you a better trait then you often had to take a short term penalty. Options that gave you bonuses, like getting extra gold or prestige, could give you a negative trait like greedy. So theres always a cost to having a well developed character, and because it uses % its not certain that even after losing gold/prestige/piety you had a load of good traits, so it remains balenced. No matter how much time and energy you invested in trying to have a superhuman heir you could still end up with a moron. But at the same time causal development makes you feel like your much more involved in the game, when you refuse to execute someone accused of being a witch and get excommuncated, it was you who made that decision, you really are the character, rather than playing as some higher being controling peoples minds. Also I'm not saying do away with all randomness, the base stats for all characters in CK1 ranged from 0 to 15ish, which you had next to no control of, and that was fine, because you shouldn't be able to control the natural abilities of your children. Its the random events that happen for no apparent reason or even contradict whats happening in game that I feel ruin any immersion.