Maccabees Mod-Coming in 2010 (Hopefully)

[Emperor Walter]

In vanilla EU:Rome VV, Judea was represented rather poorly, with a strange quadrilateral province called "Judea", representing all of palestine. The kingdom of judea was not represented much better: Judea was not even available to play until 142 BC, and even then it usually got crushed instantly. Even if it survived the game begining, there was no room to expand due to the large empires surronding the area. In short, playing Judea in vanilla Rome was not worth your time. This mod aims to accurately represent Judea & Palestine in general during the Rome timeframe to make it more historical and fun.

Planned features:

1-Improved map of Palestine - Work so far
Note: provinces colors in the map are not final and are just for the purpose of establishing boundries

1-Judea-will probably be split up further
2-Perea-Skitopolis may be added later
3-Samaria
4-Iturea
5-Galilee
6-Strato's Tower (Caeserea)
7-Joppa
8-Gaza
9-Idumea

2-New Government type to represent Judean kingdom unique status of being ruled by the king, who was also the high priest

3-Trait system to reflect different sects of Judiasm (Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes etc.)

4-Samaritanism represened in some way

5-New start date in 587 AUC/167 BC at start of the War of the Maccabees.

6-Sanhedrin represented in some way

I need information/criticism/suggestions on how Judea should look in the game; it would be much appreciated. Updates of the mods status will hopefully be added daily. Suggestions for the map would be helpful, espescially the division of Judea province.

This mod was inspired by this thread, by crusaderknight's work on his Regnum Iudaeorum mod, and by his subsequent AAR.

 

[Cheexsta]

Certainly a region that deserves extra attention, not to mention a very interesting scenario (I find this particular period very interesting). I'll be looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I agree that this is a sound concept. Even if the Judean kingdom manages to rebel in vanilla, it is simply overwhelmed by either the Ptolemys or Seleukids..

 

[Descartes]

Looks great! Will be interesting to see how it looks ingame.

 

[Hardradi]

Looking forward to see how it evolves, in particular, how you handle the Maccabean Revolt.

 

[Emperor Walter]

Dev diary #1-suggestion for judea province split

Thank you for all your comments. Now, I need feedback for this split up of Judea prvince into these 4 areas. It is split up this way so that at the start of the Maccabean revolt, we will not have Judea unhistorically chasing the Seleucids out of syria. Instead this province split would force Judea to consolidate palestine. Here is the proposed province split up:

1-Jerusalem
2-Jericho
3-Hebron
4-see below

This is the proposed historical setup for the maccabean revolt-

Blue-Judea
Dark Green-Seleucid Empire
Light Green-Judean provinces occupied by the Seleucid Empire
Purple-Egypt
Tan-Nabatea
Red-Information needed

Province 4 is meant to represent the countryside around Modin where the Maccabean revolt. I need sugestions on what both the region and city n it should be called. I don't know exactly who owned Perea at the start of the maccabean revolt which is why it is red. Information on it would be helpful The reason Gaza is red is because 1st Maccabeesis also unclear on the ownership of it, and suggests a confederacy dependent on the seleucid empire. Idumea is red as I am uncertain to represent it as it's own tribal nation, have it as part of nabatea, or as a colonisable province. Samaria is red because in The Jewish War, it suggests that by opposing the Maccabean revolt, the Samaritans gained autonomy under the Seleucid empire, until it was attacked and the Samaritan Temple was destroyed by the Judean king John Hyrcanus, along with Samaria & Skitopolis, in the process defeating the Seleucid Empire again after they arrived to help their allies. As a result, I am uncertain whether to include Samaritans as an independent state allied to the Seleucids, or as part of the seleucid empire.

On the previous post, I suggested that Skitopolis may be added as a province. Here is the proposed province:

This province was more importent in later judea, as it was the only city in the roman administered confederacy in syria, the decapolis, across the jordan river, and was one of the few bastions of hellenism to survive the Maccabean Revolt

I need your opinions on all of the above.
Please suggest/comment/criticize.

 

[Emperor Walter]

Just for reference

Just for reference, here is Vanilla Palestine nest to Maccabees Mod Palestine;

I know some of the provinces are small, but I feel it is necessary to have them to correctly represent the Maccabean revolt. If you feel other wise please comment. Besides, look at some of the provinces of Greece from the RIMP mod:

These two images are the same scale.

Note: The reason Tabuk has been removed is that the area Tabuk actually is at is where Petra province is. Therefore, I am using the tag for Perea province.

 

[Emperor Walter]

Need Opinion

In order to work on this mod, I need feedback ! It doesn't matter how much you know abou this, I just need your opinion. Even if you agree with me on all points please comment. I need opinions on which way this Mod should go. So, please comment, so I can proceed with my work. Thank you .

 

[Cheexsta]

Ok, I'll bite.

I do think those provinces are too small. It may help in showing the whole Maccabeean revolt, but some of those provinces are much smaller than the Greek provinces in RIMP that you pointed out - and IMHO, those are borderline already. Bear in mind how large the city models are and how large army models are. Then, imagine trying to click on those tiny provinces, without clicking on either of those two models - it just won't work.

My second concern is that it totally neglects the rest of the map. Judaea will be properly represented, which is excellent, but it still leaves much to be desired in other areas of the map that need work (eg Babylonia, Gallia, Illyria, etc).

And finally, I really don't think it eliminates the issue of being stuck between two major powers. I imagine it'll actually be pretty easy for the player to unite the provinces, but then you still have nowhere to go after that.

What I think would completely solve these issues is to cut out the rest of the map and have your mod focus entirely on this one region. Think of what Imperium has done with Italy so far, and apply that to the Palestinian region. Maybe include parts of Syria and Egypt so you can still include two major powers, but cut out the rest of the world and inflate your map to fit.

That's just a suggestion, but I'd like to see if you have any other ideas

 

[Emperor Walter]

Ok, I'll bite.

I do think those provinces are too small. It may help in showing the whole Maccabeean revolt, but some of those provinces are much smaller than the Greek provinces in RIMP that you pointed out - and IMHO, those are borderline already. Bear in mind how large the city models are and how large army models are. Then, imagine trying to click on those tiny provinces, without clicking on either of those two models - it just won't work.

My second concern is that it totally neglects the rest of the map. Judaea will be properly represented, which is excellent, but it still leaves much to be desired in other areas of the map that need work (eg Babylonia, Gallia, Illyria, etc).

And finally, I really don't think it eliminates the issue of being stuck between two major powers. I imagine it'll actually be pretty easy for the player to unite the provinces, but then you still have nowhere to go after that.

What I think would completely solve these issues is to cut out the rest of the map and have your mod focus entirely on this one region. Think of what Imperium has done with Italy so far, and apply that to the Palestinian region. Maybe include parts of Syria and Egypt so you can still include two major powers, but cut out the rest of the world and inflate your map to fit.

That's just a suggestion, but I'd like to see if you have any other ideas

Thanks for your feedback-I have thought of doing what Imperium has done to italy, and splitting it up, but there is a fundamental difference between what Imperium has done, and palestine in the same period: namely that in the palestinian/syrian area at this time, there were at maximum 7 nations that could be in this mod: Judea, Samaria (Debatable), Gaza (Debatable), Idumea (Debatable), Seleucids, Egypt, and Nabatea. This would probably result in the map being divided by Judea, Egypt, And Selucids, because all the other minors would be divided up fairly quickly. The second issue, is that the invasions of the Parthians and Romans into Judea, along with the invasion of Tigranes the Great into syria would be hard to simulate. Maybe an event could be created to make them appear, but the Seleucids and Egyptians would probably be able to fight them off. These invasions greatly affected Judean foreign policy between 88 BC (Tigranes begins to threaten Syria) and 37 BC (Last native Judean king, Antigonus II Mattathias, is crucified by Herod the Great). I know this is near the later game, but Judea was only fully independent between 167 BC/(142-Judean Independence is recognized by seleucids) and 37 BC -130 years total. So for 79 years of its existence, Judea was having to carefully negotiate diplomacy in the region, which would be hard to simulate with this model. Not to mention that Roman intervention was the reason for the end of the King/Priest system started by the Maccabees, and the general cheapening of the office of high priest (between 37 BC and 4 BC, 8 high priests were oppointed and deposed).
If you can suggest a way to solve these problems, I will try to develop a regional imperium-style mod.

The issue of a player (or the ai) uniting palestine will be much harder than you think. First of all, the revolt of the maccabees will be initially hard for the player, probably lasting at least 10 years if they want all of the area at the historic end of the war (although historically, it did last 25 years). After having gotten the central portion of Judea liberated, the war having ended, if he wants to expand further into palestine, it will be hard. Virtually all of the debatable nations I suggested would be allied/guaranteed by one of the 2 major powers, likely resulting in another round of major wars (although a capable player will probably be able to preserve judea), which is what historically happened. Now if he manages to unite palestine, he will still have a very pissed of population in the provinces conquered (these areas were evacuated by Judah Maccabee during the revolt, and as a result had majority greek populations when they were conquered). Events are also being planned to make playing as Judea harder, because it will be a much less stable country, as historically, it was wracked with civil wars, and revolts. (remember when I talked about the Jewish sects? Being in the wrong sect will really piss off the Judeans-more info later). The reason that I am planning to make Judea harder is that with a reasonable population (being able to field 10,000-20,000 max, with extremely low manpower on average (by the way, while this may seem exaggerated, this is likely the actual manpower), and with more than two provinces, it is easy to expand into syria because of the constant civil wars. Same with Egypt.

As for your concern about other regions being neglected, once this mod is finished, Mods focusing on mesopotamia, and syria, are planned. But for now, Judea !

How does this revised province map look?
please comment

As always please suggest,comment, and criticize. I need your feedback

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I think I might have a nibble as well whilst I'm here..

Personally, what you are doing I think is fantastic, but I whole heartedly agree with Cheexsta. It would be a bit redundant to focus primarily on Judea/Palestina and do little else to the rest of the map. However, did go to the effort of tweaking the map a little. Here are my suggestions:

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Number - Province name - Capital City

I - ITUREA (Golan/Kadesh).
II - BATANEA/BASHAN (Dion/Gamada/Naveh).
III - DEKAPOLIS (Skythiopolis).
IV - GALILEE (Sepphoris/Tiberias/Nazareth).
V - SAMARIA (Meggido).
VI - CARMEL (Acco) (Named so after Mt. Carmel).
VII - SHARON (Jaffa) (Named so after a Canaanite map making reference to the 'Sharon plains').
VIII - ISRAEL (Shichem/Shechem).
IX - HAYARDEN (Jericho) (This is the Israeli/Hebrew name for the 'Jordan').
X - JUDAH (Jerusalem/Yerushalem).
XI - DAN (Ashkelon).
XII - PHILISTINA (Gaza).
XIII - IDUMEA (Hebron).
XIV - EDOM (Bersheeba/Be'er Sheva).
XV - MOAB - (Bosrah/Dibon).
XVI - PEREA - (Medeba).

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Here is a map that simply had to be shrunk lol... However, yeah, in a nut shell, that is about all I can help you, I hope the maps are useful!

 

[Emperor Walter]

Here is a map that simply had to be shrunk lol... However, yeah, in a nut shell, that is about all I can help you, I hope the maps are useful!

Thank you for the maps . I will try to come out with a revised map tonight based on yours. And as I have said before, I will revise the map in other areas also. But the game in these areas, while innacurate in regards to the map and other respects, is playable. Playing as Judea right now is nearly immposoble, and is certainly not interesting. Therefore, I feel it deserves the most attention at this time.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Just as another minor suggestion.. If you are going to revise 'other areas of the map'. Would it not be wise to base this improvement on say the RIMP map??? A lot of good work has been done with that map already, specifically to Greece, Italia, Hispania and North Africa/Egypt. It would make sense no? If you could get permission first obviously, I'm just thinking it might save you a hellava lot of extra work!

 

[Emperor Walter]

Just as another minor suggestion.. If you are going to revise 'other areas of the map'. Would it not be wise to base this improvement on say the RIMP map??? A lot of good work has been done with that map already, specifically to Greece, Italia, Hispania and North Africa/Egypt. It would make sense no? If you could get permission first obviously, I'm just thinking it might save you a hellava lot of extra work!

I was planning to base my future work around RIMP, and once I start, I plan to ask for permission to use it. Still, while I think the map improvements are great (especially with greece), and an excellent base, a lot more can be done in regards with more country-specific events, new nations, new desicons etc.

 

[Emperor Walter]

Dev diary #2 - Map version #3

Once I finsih the map, a beta version allowing for play on the map, though with no other features (other than being able to play as Judea in 167 BC/587 AUC) will be released, allowing us to make revisions to the map in regards to how it works, and allowing me to move onto the next step, desgining events and traits for the jewish sects that existed at this time. Around the age of 16, for a person which has Judaism for a religon, an event will fire which has him join one of the jewish sects existent at this time, and will be represented with a trait giving bonuses and penalties for each sect. The sects that are planned are as follows:

1.Pharisees-main sect in judea at this time, strongly conservative, following both the Hebrew Bible, and the Mishna (Jewish oral law). This sect was the only one to survive the destruction of the second temple (except possibly the Saducees, who may have become the Modern day Karaites), and grew into Rabbinical Judaism. These sects were strongly opposed to the secularisation of Judea by Herod the Great, and were the sect that supported the Maccabean Revolt.

2.Saducees-Extreme conservative group, who rejected the Mishna, and the belief in the immortality of the soul. Followed the bible extremely literaly (e.g., when the bible said the payment for the loss of an eye was an eye, the Pharisees took this to mean payment for the eye, the Saducees took it literaly). Appealed to the rich, as they were not opposed to a secularisation of the Judean Government. Widely hated by most of the people, and did not support the Maccabean Revolt, due to their opposition of Pharisaic Judiasm's rabbinical system. Their law code was followed for 28 years during the reign of kings Aristobulus I, and Alexander Jannaeus (a real nut, by the way, had 800 people rebels crucified in front of him, their wives and children killed at their feet , while he ate lunch with his concubines, watching them slowly die), when it was abolished it was celebrated as a feast day.

3.Essenes-Fanatical group opposed to the notion of a high priest who was not a descendent of Soloman's high priest, Zadok. Many followed a "Teacher of Righteousness" (the founder of the sect) traveled to the area around the Dead Sea, were they established colonies to await the end of days, when they thought the Messiah would come, they would burst forth onto the world, conquer the world, convert or kill every non-jew, and build a "better" temple in jerusalem. Incredibly strict rules, interpreted the restrictions on the Sabbath so strictly they would not relive themselves on a saturday :wacko:. Wiped out by the romans during the First Jewish-Roman war, many probably being tortured to death. Authors of the dead sea scrolls.

4.Hellenists-Technically not exactly a sect, but worth representing nonetheless. Jews who followed some of the bibles teachings, and some of the greeks, Jews who accepted greek culture, or blended it with their own relgion. The hellenists invited the seleucids into Jerusalem, and let the seleucids capture Jerusalem from egypt in return for having a Hellenist high priest. Supported the Seleucids in the maccabean revolt, and raided Jerusalem constantly from the Akra (Citadel of Jerusalem), with the support of 600 Seleucid troops, while the city was controlled by the Maccabees. In 142 BC, the Akra was stormed and destroyed. Even the hill is sat on was demolished so it could not be used as a strongpoint again. This marks the end of the Maccabean Revolt. Later Hellenists include Herod the Great, an avid lover of Greek culture, who built Caeserea along greek lines, complete with a stadium and a theatre. Herod also refurbished the Temple, built a spectacular new palace in Jerusalem (Burned down in 66 BC by rebels), a winter palace in Jericho (Burned down by rebels in 4 BC), and the fortresses of Herodium (where he was buried), and Masada.

If there are any other sects that are worth putting in, please tell me. (not the Samaritans though-this is a seperate religion from Judaism, and will be talked about later). Also, please suggest penalties and bonuses for each of the above sects.

Anyway, on with Map version #3, based on Carroarmatto-P40's map and mine:

please comment on it, I need your opinion.

Also, while the details of the map are determined, I need people to create the terrain, positions,rivers etc. files, as I am not very good at it, and need all the help I can get. On the river file, the jordan river needs to connect those three lakes. Please submit any file proposals to me.

The map so far can be downloaded from here.

As always, please comment, I need your opinions.

 

[Emperor Walter]

24 hours

Since no one has commented on this map, there is 24 hours until this map is the one I am going to use. If you feel that the map could be improved, please comment/suggest/criticize. Otherwise, I will assume that everyone likes this map, and will begin working on implementing it. I am not trying to be rude, but I need to work at a steady pace if this will ever get done. So please, comment. To all who comment: thank you .

 

[Emperor Walter]

Dev diary #3-Pics for Judean Sects

Since my 24 hours to comment on the map is now, we are going to take a little break from the map, instead asking for opinions on the pictures of the traits of the judean sects I mentined in the previous Dev diary.

Pharisees:

Reason: I actually don't have a good reason for this, mainly couldnt think of anything better than the seven-branched candlestick.

Saducees:

Reason: Saducees followed the Hebrew bible extremely literaly, and so I have included a picture of a scroll of the Hebrew bible.

Essenes:

Reason: Creators of the dead sea scrolls, picture of a scroll unrolled.

Hellenists:

Reason: picture of a coin made by the hellenist king Herod the Great.

Please suggest, comment, and criticize.