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It's been a while since I last added some actual content to this mod...
but now the period of mere maintenance is gone and I finally am back to actual modding...
so here is a first preliminary look at what is being developed for you in Ibn Battuta's Legacy. This time, there will be an overhaul of the Niger bend area, more precisely the area currently occupied by kingdoms of Jenne and Gurma.
I am sending my proposal for southern Carantania. The black boundaries represent county boundaries, while the red boundaries represent baronies. Pohorje (green label) is a mountain in vanilla, when in reality it is a high hill with dense forest. I hope you will improve this area at least a little, as it is now very generalized.
I am sending my proposal for southern Carantania. The black boundaries represent county boundaries, while the red boundaries represent baronies. Pohorje (green label) is a mountain in vanilla, when in reality it is a high hill with dense forest. I hope you will improve this area at least a little, as it is now very generalized.
thanks for this suggestion. It looks great and I will very likely add it together with planned small overhaul of Austria/southeast HRE.
One thing, though...I need to check it later when on computer...from the first glance it seems to me, though, that the provinces (baronies) look slightly smaller than is the general minimum size (not smaller than the smallest provinces in Jerusalem area).
do you think it would be possible to adjust it in this regard?
thanks for this suggestion. It looks great and I will very likely add it together with planned small overhaul of Austria/southeast HRE.
One thing, though...I need to check it later when on computer...from the first glance it seems to me, though, that the provinces (baronies) look slightly smaller than is the general minimum size (not smaller than the smallest provinces in Jerusalem area).
do you think it would be possible to adjust it in this regard?
I made some corrections and checked the sizes with the smallest province in the area of Israel. And yes, they are roughly all within the limits of the size of the smallest province, maybe Trieste, Tržič (Monfalcone) and Ljubljana will need to be moved a few pixels, but the rest are larger than the smallest province.
I made some corrections and checked the sizes with the smallest province in the area of Israel. And yes, they are roughly all within the limits of the size of the smallest province, maybe Trieste, Tržič (Monfalcone) and Ljubljana will need to be moved a few pixels, but the rest are larger than the smallest province.
thanks, that's very kind and fast. Your suggestion is indeed very detailed.
I checked the suggestion with provinces in other parts of the map and I'm sorry I was little unclear. Looking at the map, I need to say that generally, the region of your overhaul already hosts some of the smallest provinces acceptable for inland provinces. There are indeed exceptions of provinces, that are even smaller, like Venice or Constantinople, but these are exceptions for places of exceptional importance for the whole map, not a rule to be followed everywhere.
Generally a land province should not be larger than Grado, the original one.
I should have reposted the basic rules of this mod as described on IBL discord channel:
1) The main principle is to stay low, if possible. As "sober" as possible. Necessary adjustments, however can always get special treatment. Try to be consistent even in places, where vanilla isn't.
2) Simple rules for adding provinces (baronies) are: - province (barony) should not be smaller than the English Isle of Whight. I want the map be playable and every province should accomodate all necessary map object.
(...)
3) I don't have hard limits. But in general I try to add no more than 1-2 baronies per duchy or 3-4 baronies per kingdom. What really matters, though, is the context of the kingdom/duchy in question. If it is already overrepresented (compared to neighboring areas) or well represented, while neighbors need boost, I don't like adding baronies there unless the neighboring areas are boosted first. Balance is important. (example: I was very hesistant to add more baronies to Nubia, which is very dense and more powerful than neighboring Bejaland, which was historically stronger. OTOH, I didn't mind adding more baronies to Bohemia than the "limit", because compared to its neighbors, its baronies were extremely large)
As described in the second point, it's not something deliberate, it's technical limitations of the game. IBL doesn't change map projection and keeps this rule. There are other map mods in the making, which aren't this careful about province size, mainly probably Europa Magnifica, which might suit your level of detail better.
As your suggestion is very detailed, it also fits my other map project unrelated to this game, might I ask you for some sources about the region?
Ideally maps, but other sources are appreciated aswell. It will greatly help me to decide about potential changes to your suggestion, because sadly, due to the limitations of my mod, I will need to do a few.
In general, I'd say, I'd need roughly a 1 barony less per county... in particular:
- is it essentially necessary to split Aquillea in 2 provinces? it makes Aquilleia, Gradisca and Grado all little too small. I could keep them if there's no other choice, like there was no other choice to have independent county which must be there. But if the matter is that the county has 5 instead of 4 baronies, I'd prefer to stay low in this case.
- Istria in general - there are now 8 baronies in 3 counties, every single barony there is right on the edge of the size limit or IMHO slightly below. How essential is to have 3 counties there and not 2? I can imagine the area is large enough for 6 baronies, which means either 2 counties with 3b each (ideally), or 2c with 3b each.
- Is it really so essentially necessary to have Inner and Middle Carniola as 2 counties? Were there some historical reasons in which either part was held by somebody else etc? The baronies Laas, Reifnitz and Loitsch are all on the edge of acceptable size. Inner Carniola pushes into Gorzia and that makes both Trieste's baronies too small. From purely technical (size) perspective, I'd prefer to get rid of Inner Carniola and its Idria barony, which would give space to Gorzia's baronies and in the end, allow Trieste's baronies to be more okay, but would that make historical and geographical sense?
- If you'd need to get rid of 1 barony in Upper Carniola, which one would it be? Bischoflack, Stain and Laibach ale all on the edge. Could the setup be okay if 1 of them is gone? And does it make sense historically?
- similar case like the above with Lower Carniola and Sann and their baronies of Gurkfeld, Rudolfswerd and Rohitschl
And a general question: a far as I am aware, the area was predominantly Slavic for the entire game's time frame, but all the names are in German or Italian. Do those places have Slavic names?
to add to the last part of previous post..
Actually, being a Central European myself, I do know, they do have Slavic names. Having travelled through them I know Slavic names for quite a few of them.... the question is, do they also make sense in the context of earlier history? I mean, when there were Slavic rulers, before German colonization? It's not necessary for all of them, but - like in Bohemia, Moravia or Slovakia, I always like to take into account also the period before the heavy German influence of the 13th century and beyond)
thanks, that's very kind and fast. Your suggestion is indeed very detailed.
I checked the suggestion with provinces in other parts of the map and I'm sorry I was little unclear. Looking at the map, I need to say that generally, the region of your overhaul already hosts some of the smallest provinces acceptable for inland provinces. There are indeed exceptions of provinces, that are even smaller, like Venice or Constantinople, but these are exceptions for places of exceptional importance for the whole map, not a rule to be followed everywhere.
Generally a land province should not be larger than Grado, the original one.
I should have reposted the basic rules of this mod as described on IBL discord channel:
1) The main principle is to stay low, if possible. As "sober" as possible. Necessary adjustments, however can always get special treatment. Try to be consistent even in places, where vanilla isn't.
2) Simple rules for adding provinces (baronies) are: - province (barony) should not be smaller than the English Isle of Whight. I want the map be playable and every province should accomodate all necessary map object.
(...)
3) I don't have hard limits. But in general I try to add no more than 1-2 baronies per duchy or 3-4 baronies per kingdom. What really matters, though, is the context of the kingdom/duchy in question. If it is already overrepresented (compared to neighboring areas) or well represented, while neighbors need boost, I don't like adding baronies there unless the neighboring areas are boosted first. Balance is important. (example: I was very hesistant to add more baronies to Nubia, which is very dense and more powerful than neighboring Bejaland, which was historically stronger. OTOH, I didn't mind adding more baronies to Bohemia than the "limit", because compared to its neighbors, its baronies were extremely large)
As described in the second point, it's not something deliberate, it's technical limitations of the game. IBL doesn't change map projection and keeps this rule. There are other map mods in the making, which aren't this careful about province size, mainly probably Europa Magnifica, which might suit your level of detail better.
As your suggestion is very detailed, it also fits my other map project unrelated to this game, might I ask you for some sources about the region?
Ideally maps, but other sources are appreciated aswell. It will greatly help me to decide about potential changes to your suggestion, because sadly, due to the limitations of my mod, I will need to do a few.
In general, I'd say, I'd need roughly a 1 barony less per county... in particular:
- is it essentially necessary to split Aquillea in 2 provinces? it makes Aquilleia, Gradisca and Grado all little too small. I could keep them if there's no other choice, like there was no other choice to have independent county which must be there. But if the matter is that the county has 5 instead of 4 baronies, I'd prefer to stay low in this case.
- Istria in general - there are now 8 baronies in 3 counties, every single barony there is right on the edge of the size limit or IMHO slightly below. How essential is to have 3 counties there and not 2? I can imagine the area is large enough for 6 baronies, which means either 2 counties with 3b each (ideally), or 2c with 3b each.
- Is it really so essentially necessary to have Inner and Middle Carniola as 2 counties? Were there some historical reasons in which either part was held by somebody else etc? The baronies Laas, Reifnitz and Loitsch are all on the edge of acceptable size. Inner Carniola pushes into Gorzia and that makes both Trieste's baronies too small. From purely technical (size) perspective, I'd prefer to get rid of Inner Carniola and its Idria barony, which would give space to Gorzia's baronies and in the end, allow Trieste's baronies to be more okay, but would that make historical and geographical sense?
- If you'd need to get rid of 1 barony in Upper Carniola, which one would it be? Bischoflack, Stain and Laibach ale all on the edge. Could the setup be okay if 1 of them is gone? And does it make sense historically?
- similar case like the above with Lower Carniola and Sann and their baronies of Gurkfeld, Rudolfswerd and Rohitschl
And a general question: a far as I am aware, the area was predominantly Slavic for the entire game's time frame, but all the names are in German or Italian. Do those places have Slavic names?
In general, I'd say, I'd need roughly a 1 barony less per county... in particular:
- is it essentially necessary to split Aquillea in 2 provinces? it makes Aquilleia, Gradisca and Grado all little too small. I could keep them if there's no other choice, like there was no other choice to have independent county which must be there. But if the matter is that the county has 5 instead of 4 baronies, I'd prefer to stay low in this case.
- Istria in general - there are now 8 baronies in 3 counties, every single barony there is right on the edge of the size limit or IMHO slightly below. How essential is to have 3 counties there and not 2? I can imagine the area is large enough for 6 baronies, which means either 2 counties with 3b each (ideally), or 2c with 3b each.
In the sentence did you mean 3 counties with 2 baronies or 2 counties with 3 baronies? If there were three counties, I would join Materia with Koper in the Koper (Capodistria) county. And Albona with Abbazio in Pisino County. In the opposite case, I would keep the counties of Koper and Pola. I would unite Pisino with Abbazia and join them to the county of Koper. Albona should become part of the county of Pola. I would reunite Materia with Koper.
- Is it really so essentially necessary to have Inner and Middle Carniola as 2 counties? Were there some historical reasons in which either part was held by somebody else etc? The baronies Laas, Reifnitz and Loitsch are all on the edge of acceptable size. Inner Carniola pushes into Gorzia and that makes both Trieste's baronies too small. From purely technical (size) perspective, I'd prefer to get rid of Inner Carniola and its Idria barony, which would give space to Gorzia's baronies and in the end, allow Trieste's baronies to be more okay, but would that make historical and geographical sense?
Inner and middle Carniola have historically been divided several times. Inner Carniola was often under Italian rule. When central Carniola was under German and Slovenian rule. Even today, this division has a dialectal influence, because the border between the Dolenjska and Notranjska dialects is the border between the inner and middle Carniola.
Inner Carniola is somewhat of an unfortunate region, because Trieste was historically an independent city that competed with Venice for trade. Geographically it is more connected to Trieste, but politically it has always been torn between Goriza (Friuli) and Carniola, in the end Carniola won over it. Therefore, it is difficult for me to say, if I were to abolish Idria, where the remaining baronies would be placed. But if we look from the perspective of the early history of the Middle Ages, I would give them to Goriza or at least Adelsberg to Gorizia and Loitsch to middle Carniola.
- If you'd need to get rid of 1 barony in Upper Carniola, which one would it be? Bischoflack, Stain and Laibach ale all on the edge. Could the setup be okay if 1 of them is gone? And does it make sense historically?
For Sann Rohitschl can becom part of Cilli. For Lower Carniola Rudolfswerd can become part of Gurkfield but this one is otherwise difficult, Rudolfswerd becomes important at the end of the game when Gurkfield was important at the beginning.
to add to the last part of previous post..
Actually, being a Central European myself, I do know, they do have Slavic names. Having travelled through them I know Slavic names for quite a few of them.... the question is, do they also make sense in the context of earlier history? I mean, when there were Slavic rulers, before German colonization? It's not necessary for all of them, but - like in Bohemia, Moravia or Slovakia, I always like to take into account also the period before the heavy German influence of the 13th century and beyond)
Yes, all baronies have Slovenian names. I just couldn't make up my mind because the game has a mixed one and I preferred the German one. Even if I myself am Slovenian. If you want, I can name them all in a list, if you need the names later for the northern part of Karantania I can help too.
Since it's come up, what's the rough lower size limit of a land province in pixels? I'm asking because I'm trying to turn the Low Countries into much less of a historical eyesore and I don't want to, for example, give Stavelot and Malmedy each its own barony only to end up with glitched bishopric sprites.
Since it's come up, what's the rough lower size limit of a land province in pixels? I'm asking because I'm trying to turn the Low Countries into much less of a historical eyesore and I don't want to, for example, give Stavelot and Malmedy each its own barony only to end up with glitched bishopric sprites.
No idea what it is in pixels, but it's roughly the English Isle of Wight.
As said above, there always can be a smaller province, but at least for me, it's an exception.
There is number of mods which don't really care about this and they run okay, so no hard limit and other approaches are possible and legitimate.
EDIT: but as reminded below, having micro provinces might make it hard to click on the provinces, military units etc... and for this reason I prefer playability over accuracy.
No idea what it is in pixels, but it's roughly the English Isle of Wight.
As said above, there always can be a smaller province, but at least for me, it's an exception.
There is number of mods which don't really care about this and they run okay, so no hard limit
No idea what it is in pixels, but it's roughly the English Isle of Wight.
As said above, there always can be a smaller province, but at least for me, it's an exception.
There is number of mods which don't really care about this and they run okay, so no hard limit
Smaller provinces run okay, the problem is that clicking on the province becomes a challenge. In some cases, that's fine, but if you cover the map with microprovinces, it will become a hassle.
Smaller provinces run okay, the problem is that clicking on the province becomes a challenge. In some cases, that's fine, but if you cover the map with microprovinces, it will become a hassle.
Oh, yes, you're right of course
That's why I'm so hesistant to do micro-provinces and prefer to keep them vanilla-sized and prefer playability over accuracy.
I just actually wanted to note that my approach deffinitely isn't the only possible and that many modders actually (and very legitimately) prefer accuracy. But thanks, edited that earlier post ;-)
In the sentence did you mean 3 counties with 2 baronies or 2 counties with 3 baronies? If there were three counties, I would join Materia with Koper in the Koper (Capodistria) county. And Albona with Abbazio in Pisino County. In the opposite case, I would keep the counties of Koper and Pola. I would unite Pisino with Abbazia and join them to the county of Koper. Albona should become part of the county of Pola. I would reunite Materia with Koper.
Inner and middle Carniola have historically been divided several times. Inner Carniola was often under Italian rule. When central Carniola was under German and Slovenian rule. Even today, this division has a dialectal influence, because the border between the Dolenjska and Notranjska dialects is the border between the inner and middle Carniola.
Inner Carniola is somewhat of an unfortunate region, because Trieste was historically an independent city that competed with Venice for trade. Geographically it is more connected to Trieste, but politically it has always been torn between Goriza (Friuli) and Carniola, in the end Carniola won over it. Therefore, it is difficult for me to say, if I were to abolish Idria, where the remaining baronies would be placed. But if we look from the perspective of the early history of the Middle Ages, I would give them to Goriza or at least Adelsberg to Gorizia and Loitsch to middle Carniola.
If anything, I would split Radmansdorf in half and give half to Krainburg and Bischoflack.
For Sann Rohitschl can becom part of Cilli. For Lower Carniola Rudolfswerd can become part of Gurkfield but this one is otherwise difficult, Rudolfswerd becomes important at the end of the game when Gurkfield was important at the beginning.
I've made map of the Low Countries in order to show a possible addition and reshuffling of baronies, counties and duchies in the area could be done. The red lines are county borders and the black ones are barony borders. The colour of the names corresponds to the colour the borders, but some black names were changed to white for easier readability.
One of my issues with the original map is that it underrepresented historically populous counties/duchies like Flanders and Brabant and that other areas in parts of the Netherlands were overrepresented.
I've made map of the Low Countries in order to show a possible addition and reshuffling of baronies, counties and duchies in the area could be done. The red lines are county borders and the black ones are barony borders. The colour of the names corresponds to the colour the borders, but some black names were changed to white for easier readability.
One of my issues with the original map is that it underrepresented historically populous counties/duchies like Flanders and Brabant and that other areas in parts of the Netherlands were overrepresented.
Thanks for this suggestion.
I will check it how it works with the few major rivers I added to the Lower Rhine area. Thanks for inspiration. The Low countries are one of the areas I deffinitely want to overhaul in the near future!
Thanks for this suggestion.
I will check it how it works with the few major rivers I added to the Lower Rhine area. Thanks for inspiration. The Low countries are one of the areas I deffinitely want to overhaul in the near future!
Thank you for the answer. Here are some of my thoughts behind these choices:
I tried to keep the river Scheldt as the main border between the Kingdom of France and the HRE, as was the case historically. That's why Tournai became part of Southern Flanders and Aalst became a part of Southern Brabant. Even though Aalst ended up swearing fealty to the count of Flanders in 1056, it remained a part of the HRE throughout the Middle Ages.
I switched Kortrijk from Southern to Northern Flanders in order to make the counties more culturally homogenous. Northern Flanders (Vlaanderen) and Western Flanders (Kassel) are now fully Low Franconian/Dutch, whereas Southern Flanders (Lille) is Romance speaking (or Picard in this case). Places like Boulogne and Guînes were still mostly Dutch speaking around 867 (Bonen & Giezene in Dutch), but by 1066 they had already started switching to French/Picard.
Nivelles is historically a Walloon speaking area (langue d'Oïl), but as it has always remained a part of the duchy of Brabant, I decided to attach it to the Dutch speaking county of Southern Brabant (Brussels)
Even though Namur was an independent county, I considered it too small for a single county in game and as such gave it to Liège. It also has the added benefit of keeping the borders a bit smoother.
Luxemburg and the Eastern part of the Netherlands were quite sparsely populated in this time period, and that's why I gave them fewer and larger baronies.
You could maybe add another barony in Holland/West-Friesland if you think it's too sparse.
Limburg became an independent County, and then a Duchy, when Lower Lotharingia fell apart in the 10th century. Maastricht, on the other hand, used to be jointly ruled by the Prince-Bishop of Liège and the Duke of Brabant. I wasn't sure what to do with both of them, so I joined them into a separate county, as they are both Dutch/Low Franconian speaking areas, compared to Walloon speaking Liège.
And a general question: a far as I am aware, the area was predominantly Slavic for the entire game's time frame, but all the names are in German or Italian. Do those places have Slavic names?
AFAIK while the biggest culture group in Istria was probably slavic, the coast up to Labin (excluded) was still culturally mostly romance, and most prominent people from the area were culturally romance so it also should be mechanically sound from a game perspective.
