Map Modifications Suggestions (Western Europe)

[Hive]

Would the city Trent really be inside that province?

I think so, yes...

I think your arguement for Pisa isnt good enough. Florence would be too big, and making the other provinces larger is almost necessary somehow.

Both Pisa and Siena can be toned down in wealth and manpower to compensate. And you must know, I am making this map for my AoI mod foremost - which have a scenario as early as 1337, making Pisa highly relevant imo.

Nice will certainly boost Savoy a bit, is it rally needed?

I think Savoy is too much of a walkover as is. They were involved in many wars with nations like Spain, France and Austria throughout the EU2 period - and weren't annexed untill Napoleon came along.

 

[Txini]

Why some provinces have Italian names and others have english one??

 

[Hive]

Why some provinces have Italian names and others have english one??

Damn you Txini, was it really necessary to say that?

I didn't feel like looking up the English names for the ones I didn't know already.

 

[Txini]

Still think going with local language or at least the one they had more during the game time, language of the population, not the rulers, otherwise Italy should be filled with Spanish names

 

[Txini]

Also read you your scenario had a start in 1333, then you should maybe have Sardinia divided into two as it was disputed by Pisa and Aragon.

 

[Hive]

Also read you your scenario had a start in 1333, then you should maybe have Sardinia divided into two as it was disputed by Pisa and Aragon.

Yeah I know, but I don't consider it worth a province. They'll just both get a core on Sardinia.

Anyway, I think I'll take a break from the Italian map as it's giving me a headache... damn Northern Italian city states...

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Would the city Trent really be inside that province?

I think Trent is fine there. Verona is not up there. Verona is more where Mantua province/west Veneto currently sits. The only other possible name for Trent would be Brescia or Bergamo. That would make it a province for for Milan & Venice to fight over.

Also, if keeping it Trent, I would slice away that little southwestern toe (which is too close to where Bergamo/Brescia sits) and give it to Lombardy.

On Lombardy: surely there's space to split it diagonally (sw-ne) into two provinces, Milan on the northwest, Cremona on the southeast half. That would give Milan two provinces there. And for those with Medieval scenarios, the eternal Milan vs. Cremona rivalry could finally be modelled in.

(alternative to Cremona would be Brescia, thus making that where Milanese & Venetians would fight over).

Ideally (if it was clickable), I'd actually consider splitting Lombardy into three (a Mercedes-sign type split), with Milan in the northwest (bulked up with a sliver from too-fat Piedmont), Brescia in the northeast (bulked up with that toe from Trent) and Cremona in the southeast (probably big enough). I know it sounds crazy, but would it really be completely unclickable? Now that would give Medievalists an orgasm!

I think your arguement for Pisa isnt good enough. Florence would be too big, and making the other provinces larger is almost necessary somehow.

I like Pisa. Pisa is good. Pisa is important and should be revoltable. It wasn't always ruled by Florence even in the EU2 timeframe. It regained independence for a stretch until 1509 and was lost to Spain in 1557 for another stretch.

The only modification I'd make in that area is to expand Parma & Emilia south a bit at the expense of Pisa & Florence, so that they're all clickable. Certainly the northern bit of Florence can be shaved off with little loss.

(and if Pisa is slightly jutted down, Siena could be forced to lose a little coastline. You can think of it as the Gheradesca & Piombino coasts that Florence took/Siena lost. Aesthetically-speaking, Siena doesn't look like Siena right now. Too much coastline relative to interior, when in fact her coastline was smaller than her interior. When Florence acquires Pisa, Florence should form a croissant-shaped wrap around Siena's north. )

P.S. - I'm not getting my Ferrara, am I? Oh well. Well, if Marche is not going to be shortened, than I suppose it would be aesthetically proper to restore the Umbrian lick back to Lazio.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Sorry Hive, didn't know you were looking for a 1337 scenario. Then of course Pisa has a role to fill!

 

[Hive]

Sorry Hive, didn't know you were looking for a 1337 scenario. Then of course Pisa has a role to fill!

Actually, I'm on a nearly impossible task as I need to make a map that's good for the entire period of 1337-1913.

I might change Trent into Bergamo or Brescia in order to give Milan another province.

 

[Norrefeldt]

The Po doesn't at all make a southern bend under Lombardy like that. Look at any of the maps I have sent. That would give some space south of it, where it's really crowded right now.
I have made a version of my own, based on yours, will post it tonight.

 

[Hive]

The Po doesn't at all make a southern bend under Lombardy like that. Look at any of the maps I have sent. That would give some space south of it, where it's really crowded right now.
I have made a version of my own, based on yours, will post it tonight.

I actually already moved the Po in my current version.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Hi, I like the new division of Scottish provinces. I always thought it would improve gameplay to have a borders province. I don't agree with the name "clydesdale" though, it sounds much too english to me. "Strathclyde" I feel represents the region nicely.

We've had this. English-sounding or no, local scotchfolk would have called it Clydesdale throughout the period. Strathclyde is a dud term from the feudalisation of the region in the C12 to 1974.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Is it a modern province? What is wrong with it that 'Abruzzo' province was in 1400s part of Apulia along with north-eastern part of current Apulia province on your map. While the rest was Calabria.

I never heard about Abruzzo or seen any Abruzzo province in history maps.

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_historic.jpg

Has Abruzzi listed for 1500.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Lucca was a state bordering Tuscany to the south, Modena to the west and Parma and Genoa to the north (IIRC, that is). It actually existed throughout the entire EU2 period (though I think it was annexed in short periods at a time), up untill the Italian unification.

And it's history is almost completely boring for the entire era. It wa s fought over inn the 1430's in the war that led to Cosimo de' Medici's rise, and throughout the 15th century Florence had designs on it. Still it was a tiny little republic, of very little interest to anyone. If you want to add a small state Montferrat would be much more interesting, as France and Spain with various allies fought over it numberous times.

WHy on earth wouldn't that province (assuming one is needed) no be Pisa/Leghorn? It's simply not true that Florence didn't have a coast line in 1419, it owned Pisa which was still a reasonable port. And a 1 province Florence really is weaker than it was in real life. Florence may have been the weakest of the 5 Italian 'major powers' but it was miles ahead of the second league. Two provinces wouldn't be so unrealistic

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Europe 1400:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
Venice seem to have taken a province from Milan between 1400 and 1454, I'm not good enough to solve this right now. Perhaps Milan should be a three provincer from start (Lombardy+Parma +some province between Milan and Veneto) that Venice take later on?

Not quite. The area in question is Brescia, Bergamo and Verona. In 1419 Verona had passed to the Venetians, and Bressia and Bergamo were independent. They were reduced by Milan in 1420 (maybe 1419, not so sure).
It might make sense to add a Brescia province to replace Mantua, and have the remainder of Mantua province replaced by Ferrara.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Nice to see you here IB! Hopefully you can help us with some border... I started an AGCEEP thread too, was hoping for some experts like you and Toio and others.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Point was to get some Estensi-Venetian-Papal action. Without Ferrara, the twists & turns of the Italian Wars wouldn't have happened. Also, if/when Papal States gets Ferrara, it would give it the four provinces it would need to fight off Spanish dominance of the peninsula (as IRL).

DId the Papal States really fight off Spanish dominance AFTER 1597? Sure there was plenty of diplomatic switching between French and Spanish parties, but the Papal States never fought Spain once - in an era when Parma, Savoy, Modena and even Tuscany served as French military proxies once in a while. Yes there's the Castro War against Spanish satelites, but that was contained as soon as Spanish power could be brought to bear.

Why so worried about an overpowered Naples? Naples was the most powerful entity south of Milan. (incidentally, Naples was far and away the biggest city in Europe during the EU2 period.)

It was also far and away the hardest to rule (after the Papal States were under rough control by the mid 15th century).

I guess as a guideline, keep the following in mind: once it got a hold of Naples & Milan, Spain did rule all of Italy practically-speaking. The Papal States was really (and barely) it's only counterweight.

Venice was also a minor counterweight. Certainly opposed Spain far more often than the Papacy.

If anything, I'd say Florence is overpowered. Those are some rich provinces there. Even after Florence acquired Pisa & Siena, it was still a relative midget on the Italian political scene. It was unable to act independently of Spain without French backing and without another mid-sized Italian power, like the Pope or Venice, holding its hand.

In the late 16th century Tuscany and Savoy were the only states with any real military potential in Italy. (With Venice as an exceptional case.) Tuscany under Cosimo I was an important and influential state, although it was basically in the Spanish system. There were heavy Tuscan military contributions to the Spanish effort in the Thirty Years war in Italy.

Tuscany became decreasingly important due to the ineffective rule of the later Medici.

The way it stands currently, it seems that there will be a whole bunch of midget states able to fend of Spanish dominance of the peninsula. Spain should be able to eat all of them for breakfast if it decides to do so. Without a French or Papal alliance, the midgets' survival should be precarious.

Can't argue with that.

In other words:

The sum of Spanish-held provinces should outweigh the rest put together.
The second biggest sum should be Papal-held states
The third, a toss-up between Venice & Florence.

(P.S. - Florence, at maximum-strength, should be a three-province state. That's another reason I a keen on creating a Ferrara is that it would make the Papal States a four-province state, thus making it second on the peninsula (as it was IRL). Also, Venice should be able to get a hold of Ferrara (as it did for a while), which in combination with Friuli, makes it also a three-province state and thus equal to Florence as a terraferma player.)

I don't see that Naples+Milan should really be more than all of the rest of Italy. From what I know Naples had a much harder time mbilizing resources than the northern Italy. Venice in 1484 was able to hold off most of the rest of Italy, Florence in 1476 stood unassisted agaisnt Naples (admittedly with considerable difficulty).

As an aside a Province for Elba and the Presidial States would be quite amusing. As a Spanish possesion they were an important check on Tuscany's freedom of action.

 

[Norrefeldt]

So, you think we should squeeze in Pisa, to make Florence have 2 from start?
Do you think ferrara is needed?
What about Friuli, I tend to think that this can belong to Veneto province? (Without losing too much. Otherwise they will end up with 4 in my map.)

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I think both Parma and Emilia are needed. Milan are to get Parma in the 15th c.

I don't much see the point. Modena and Parma after 1547 (say) can be more or less treated as one - do we really need two micro states there? Yes, each did get involved in international affairs in one way or another, but I'd arge that Modena is only really interesting inasmuch as the Este ended up there. If they coudl have Ferrara instead..... (so yes I've signed up to the Ferrara fan club ). I'd just have one province and call it Emilia. It can be Milanese at the start, and can represent Parma or Modena depending on what is more interesting. And add Ferrara, of course.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

But perhaps it is better to ignore the state Lucca due to exactly this port issue. The thing just is that while Pisa only existed for less than 100 years (probably more like 50) during the EU2 period, Lucca more or less existed throughout the entire period...

Pisa existed from 1494 to 1509. That's it. And it was the trading port of Florence for much of the game. It became silted up in the 17th century and was replaced by Leghorn as the trading city for Tuscany in the 18th.