[Megathread] Monumental Thread

[Pavía]

Hello everyone! I'm one of the new devs, and I'm in charge of the monuments balance and issues in 1.31 version, as you could probably have seen in other threads.

I'm pumping this one because I want to gather further feedback about balancing and fixing this feature in the following patches, so feel free to suggest whatever you want about the topic, and I'll be taking account of it.

I'm also aware that here we've got a bunch of good suggestions for adding more monuments. For now, we're focusing on balancing the ones we've got already in the game; but perhaps in the future some could be added, we'll think about it.

 

[Pavía]

The only suggestions I have is that St. Peter's requirment of being only catholic is kinda hampering it. You are either Pope or taking penaltty for it, or cant use it. So I find it very useless. So either open it to other Christian faiths or make it that levle 2 or 3 removes penalty for other Catholics holding Rome.

This will be changed for 1.31.5 patch (it did not enter 1.31.4 beta patch as we were already looking for a wider balance rework while the patch was finished, though).

BTW, thank you all for your feedback! I'll regularly check this thread, answer some of your questions and proposals, and give reactions to the posts.

 

[Pavía]

Hey Pavia, thanks for your engagement with the community here! In my previous thread about Catholics and Hagia Sophia, you said it’d be changed in the next patch, which I assume means 1.31.5.
Would you consider also adding a small Papal Influence modifier to the monument? For Orthodox it give Patriarch Authority and for Muslims it gives Piety, so if you’re opening it to Catholics it makes sense to add a bonus for them too.

Plus historically speaking I suppose the Catholic controller of such an important location as the Hagia Sophia would enjoy a certain level of prestige with the Pope.

By that same logic of course I’d think St. Peter’s would also give Patriarch Authority if held by the Orthodox, as Rome is traditionally one of the Pentarchy.

It’s really cool to see you on here engaging in these forums. Monuments are such a huge feature that will really breathe flavor into the game when they’re balanced and fleshed out. I’m glad you’re balancing what you have now but I hope you add some more in the future!

The Papal Influence modifier has already been considered, but it's not useful for Papal States, the country that should be the main user of the monument, so we looked for other modifiers that would add a little more punch to it; also taking into account the penalties for Catholic countries occupying Rome.

Thanks your your kind words, too.

ITT: Dev: We're not planning on adding new monuments at this time
Everyone else: Here, do this monument!

It's OK. As I said, we're not planning on new additions for the moment, but perhaps in the future this could be done, so having this kind of feedback already here would be very useful for us.

 

[Pavía]

Q1: Will Heddal Stave Church be movable?
I wonder why it's currently not (that's what wiki says if its up to date).

I have an example. A smaller church - Vang Stave Church - but also wooden, was moved form Vang, Norway to (currently) Karpacz, Poland in 1842.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vang_Stave_Church

Spoiler: Vang Stave Church, Karpacz (Poland)

Back to the topic of the thread:
Q2: Will Wieliczka Salt Mine be in the game one day? It's quite unique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine

Malbork is a Teutonic castle. This monument is located in Poland, but it is undoubtedly Teutonic.

Wawel could be a typical Polish monument, and Kiev could have a Pechersk Lavra.

I'm taking the liberty of answering your questions here rather than in the 'New monuments for 1.30.5' thread, so we don't hijack the voting.

For Q1, well, we know that temples and shrines could be moved from their place, even if they're built in stone (in Spain we have a sad tradition of monasteries being sold and relocated outside, actually). But the criterion used in the game right now is that only sculptures are movable,

For the suggestions, we'll add Wieliczka to our list of possible additions, and Wawel was already suggested by other people. On the other hand, Kiev Pechersk Lavra is already a monument present in the game.

With Johan's new post about monuments and the team is planning on adding more of them, I suggest reworking all Holy Sites/triggered modifiers in general. Currently we already have Rome where there is a monument. I suggest incorporating the missionaries and triggered modifiers into the monuments themselves. Maybe with the missionary added at monument lvl 1. If you do it like this, don't forget to include Coptic/Orthodox and other religions for monuments like Rome, which is currently only useable by the Papal States.

Good suggestion, we'll take that into account for next version on a wider basis, as depending on the result of the voting we'll probably have to add monuments in provinces were there already are modifiers, as you say.

 

[Pavía]

Any change of adding the Grand Canal of China either as a canal (part of it that connects to lake provinces, so it would actually be usable by ships) or an ordinary Monument?

I think Grand Canal of China would be hard to implement, as we're not really using lakes as sea provinces in the game, and it's also difficult to lock it to only one province. We have other interesting suggestions in Chinese region though, as you could see with Porcelain Tower of Nanjing in the new monuments voting.

For game balance reasons can you give Adal a monument since Ethiopia would be wayy to overpowered compared to its historic rival

I suggest to consider adding the walled holy city of harar

It was built within the games timeframe

“
The walls surrounding this sacred city, considered “the fourth holy city” of Islam, were built between the 13th and 16th centuries and served as a protective barrier. “

more info :

• Said to be the first city Muslims migrated to from the Arabian peninsula
• 
  
• "This is one of the world's ancient civilisations," local historian Abdulswamad Idris tells me.
• 
  
• "Some of the mosques you see here were built in the 10th Century."
• 
  
• some consider it to be Islam's fourth holiest city after Mecca, Jerusalem and Medina
  do let me know your thoughts

Harar has already been suggested by other fans, and it's in our long-list of possible additions.

Something I'd like to add on the topic of Mt. Fuji - Since Shinto nations can convert to either Confucian or Catholic as a result of Incidents, as well as Mahayana, it does feel like it would be nice if Mt. Fuji did something for both of these religions?

From a fluff perspective it makes sense that shrines would continue to see use if converting to Confucian via incidents especially (since doing so starts with Shinto harmonized anyway). For Catholic it makes less sense fluff wise - the main motivator here is the gameplay (want to mitigate the 'feel-bad-ness' of converting to catholic and losing access to the unique wonder), but to be honest I feel like Mt. Fuji would continue to be an important site culturally, even if the state religion was changed?

Well, I think that having it restricted to Catholic daimyos would make sense, as its temples would have no special religious significance to them, and it would be a trade-off for conversion.

About Confucianism, well, it would make more sense, but we would also have to think about how that could affect another Confucian country conquering Mount Fuji; but it's not a bad suggestion, though.

@Pavía

Thank you for your response

In my opinion, the region of Silesia is too poorly represented, and you can find many potential Monuments on it, for example:
1. Moszna Castle
2. Pszczyna Castle
3. Friedenskirche in Jawor (Unfortunately, there is no description of this church on the English Wikipedia. That's why I sent it from German-speaking Wikipedia)

The listed monuments were built during the times when Silesia belonged to the Germans - in my opinion the most rich in monuments period in Silesia. I think Silesia should have a lot of provinces so that their density resembles the region of Westphalia (Silesia was very populated). So for this reason I think that at least one Monument (and maybe even two) in Silesia should appear. After all, it is a very important region for Europe, a region for which both Poles, Germans and Czechs fought. Silesia needs more love.

Thanks for your suggestions. We want to add more monuments in Eastern Europe in the future, and Poland could likely have one; hard competitors in that region, I think.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía sorry if I missed the proposal in the thread, but why don't you cross-feed the loading screens and the monuments to optimize artist time?

The loading screens seem to be composed of three images: the frame, a leader and a landscape. Very often the landscape is a monument and could be easily reused to portrait it in game. E.g.: the brandenburger gate is already there, Dome on the Rock / Jerusalem also, the big polish Castle I keep forgetting the name off also, St. Basils cathedral in Moscow...

The other way round, if the images used for the monument also exist in high quality format, you could improve some of the loading screen. E.g. Louis XIV could have Versailles instead of a random countryside and Catherine the Great something better than frozen wastelands.

You could also use this approach to prioritize future monument: William of Orange (or another Dutch king?) stands in front of a rather basic landscape with windmill. Maybe there could be a Dutch monument for the game and for the loading screen?

That could help focusing the artist time on brand new monuments and images by reusing the already amazing ones done for the loading screens or the monuments themselves.

This is a good idea, and something we already started considering for the new additions (as Brandenburg Gate and Jerusalem Old City were proposed in the community contest, e.g.).

One thing, I find odd, is that other than Saint Peter:s Basilica, Italy has no other monuments.

It would seem that Saint Marks's in Venice would be a perfect addition at a later date.

I believe they are considering adding Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence's famous cathedral)

Yes, we considered to add more monuments in Italy, and our preferred one was Santa Maria del Fiore, which was also proposed in the contest. That would be the next one added to Italy when possible, although we've got other interesting suggestions in mind, too.

 

[Pavía]

Which kind of effects would you put to Santa Maria del fiore?

Well, we'll see when the moment comes.

That's a bit of a bummer. It's not rally about China, it already has 2 monuments, it's about I would say design.

I know that EU4 isn't really meant for new players, but having a canal that is available at the start would be a good way to show how they work to players before they reach the end game and can build the other ones. It would be a bit like how English Monarchy allows one to play with parliament long before parliaments become available to other nations.

I thought of the way it could work and I think it could be split into two monuments with smaller effects and preferably cheaper upgrades. The Suez canal effectively covers 2 provinces, so with a little creativity 2 Grand Canal sections could cover 4 or even 5 provinces and connect 2 lakes to sea.

Yet another though for the eventual EU5 then.

That's an interesting approach, I have to say. But getting navigable lakes is not in our near-future development plans, so in any case it would have to wait. Thanks for your suggestion, anyway, it's taken into account.

if paris has both versailles and notre dame then istanbul must have great walls of constantine and either sultan ahmet mosque or süleymaniye mosque which makes 3 monument. if paris has 2 because of different timelines walls of constantine could be just a decision.

Sultan Ahmed and Süleymaniye Mosques have been already proposed by other forum members, and are in our possible suggestions list. Anyway, regarding the ones that could be added in the future, we already have some criteria for analyzing which are the most interesting ones, so we'll see it those are fit for them.

 

[Pavía]

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions, I'm taking note of them (although some were repeated!).

I've been thinking about the "early-modern" monuments and how it makes no sense to have them available to be constructed in 1444.

When new monuments are added to the game, I would suggest tying some of them to the rest of the game's systems.

E.g. the Branderburg Gate could be made so that it is enabled by missions of varius German states (in particular by Prussian missions and German missions). That would make it show up later in the game, based on how the situation in Europe develops.

Also, e.g. the Taj Mahal could be a reward in the Mughal mission tree (perhaps also available in the Hindustan/Bharat mission trees).

Some monuments could also be unlocked by ages. E.g. Versailles becoming available in the Age of Absolutism. This could also allow for the Portuguese Pena Palace to not be removed completely (wasting the art assets) if it were made to only become available as a second monument in Lisbon in the Age of Revolutions.

Also, some of the Monuments could be made to be completely destroyable. I would suggest for example adding an option to destroy Tenochtitlan, as it historically was.



Regarding navigable lakes, on a side note, this is something that has been bothering me lately as I pondered the canal thingy: why is it so that if one selects a fleet and hovers the cursor over a lake, the movement icon changes to the one shown when movement is possible?

It's an interesting suggestions, I've got to say. If we're revamping the feature in the next months, we'll think about it, for sure.

About the second issue, I joined the team just a couple months ago, so right now I've got no idea about that, literally . I'll ask my colleagues about it, nonetheless.

 

[Pavía]

Thanks for the additional suggestions! And for those repeated posts, I've already answered them in the DD.

 

[Pavía]

While I commend the developers for their dedication to add in new monuments and fix earlier ones,

I wanted to get an overview of all regions in game with a monument and which regions have none.

View attachment 731384

First is the current patch number, second is the new upcoming monuments in 1.31.5 and after that the ones that didnt make the first cut. I'll be ignoring the Canals
Europe
British Isles: 2
Iberia: 2 (3)
France: 2
Low Countries: 0
Scandinavia: 1
North Germany: 1 [2]
South Germany: 1
Italy: 1 [2]
Baltics: 0 [1]
Poland: 0
Carpathia: 0
Ruthenia: 1
Russia: 1
Balkans: 2
Pontic Steppe: 0
Caucasia: 1

Middle East:
Anatolia: 1
Maghreb: 1
Egypt: 1
Mashriq: 1 (2)
Arabia: 0 (1)
Persia: 0

Africa:
Given that almost all regions have none and regions are kind of arbritrary ive done by geographical location
West Africa: 0 (1)
South Africa: 1
East Africa: 0 [1]

Asia:
All of Siberia (Ural, West, East): 0
Central Asia: 1
Khorasan: 1
Hindustan: 2
Western India: 0
Deccan: 1
Coromandel: 0
Bengal: 0
Tibet: 1
Birma: 3
Indochina: 2 (3)
Malaya: 0
Indonesia: 2
Mollucas: 0
Xinan: 0
South China: 0 [1]
North China: 3
Korea: 0
Japan: 3

Oceania:
Oceania: 1 [2]
Australia: 0

America:
Much like Africa, most american regions have 0 monuments
North America: 2
Mexico: 1
Central America: 1
South America: 1 (2)

Proposed additions by Paradox:
View attachment 731390

In my opinion, it's clear that before new monuments are added to regions that already have one, there should instead be a focus on regions without one.

Certain regions are an exception as are certain monuments, like Kaaba or Holy City of Jerusalem, but since we are getting them it's not really a problem.

Scandinavia for example only has 1 wonder at the moment and the Balkans only have 2, but both are in Greece and not the rest of the region.

I think adding in monuments for regions which have none should be the priority.

Im expecting or hoping that a Scandinavian Flavor Pack might come out soon, so this could bring Monuments to Scandinavia as well as mission trees, one of the regions in europe without ones at the moment.

View attachment 731390

So my Proposal is to add in Monuments in each region or at least attempt at:

I would like help from others:

First of all, the monuments proposed by Paradox already:
Poland/Baltic: Malbork Castle
Ethiopia: Rock-Hewn Churches
South China: Porcelain Tower of Nanjing

Ones I am proposing:

Low Countries: Dutch Polders (Primarily the Beemster) https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/899/ Built between 1607 and 1612
Australia: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/447/
While it is a natural feature, it's holy similar to Mount Fuji, perhaps something similar could be reasoned.
Korea: From Nyappi57: one of these:
1. Gyeongbokgung (Joseon dynasty) [1394 reconstructed 1867]
2. Changdeokgung Palace (Joseon dynasty) [1392 reconstructed 1897]
3. Hwaseong Fortress [1794 et 1796]
West Africa: University of Timbuktu, primarily Sankoré, built around 989
Northeast America: White House or Washington DC in general (capitol included), built between 1792 and 1800 (bit late, but think it makes sense for a Colonial USA nation)
Bengal: from Tempscire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bara_Katra Bara Katra was built between 1644 and 1646
Carpathia: From Bossovsky: Spiš Castle, 12th century
Baltic: From Bossovsky: - Riga Cathedral, built in 1211
Non-Greece Balkans: The Walls of Dubrovnik by Espilious built between 7th and 17th century, defined in 14th century

Thanks for your feedback! We were already aware of unequal geographical distribution, and because of that, the 12 monuments in the voting list were distributed all around the world. The 7 remaining that were not chosen neither by the community or the team* will be top priority additions in the future, but we still have to discuss when and how we'll be adding more monuments in the future, as this was very requested by the community.

* These were: Malbork Castle, Brandenburg Gate, Santa Maria del Fiore, Rock-Hewn Churches of Lalibela, Porcelain Tower of Nanjing, Nan Madol, and Cahokia.

 

[Pavía]

As a general, assuming that the future will include some region-centric patches (a'la "Japan" or "Poland" or "Manchu" patches), do you intend to have such patches include monuments related to such regions?

We'll see how we develop further additions, it's not set yet which such detail.

No monuments for Persia ?
Right now the closest one that they can use (as a historical Shia Persia) is the one in Samarkand

There were some good suggestions for the region, so may be in the future.

 

[Pavía]

Hi @Pavía,

Here are some of my suggestions about the monument system:

1. I think that Confucian countries can use all religion-constrained monuments after harmonizing such religion/religion group is OP. However, I think the religion-constrained monuments in the eastern religious group should be accessed for Confucian countries after this religion is harmonized. Specifically, the monuments for all three Buddhist religions and Shinto. Since missionaries and missionary strength are totally useless for Confucian countries, only 4 or 5 extra monuments are worth upgrading. It is not OP now. I mean, take a look at the latest released monuments. the style of monuments in Qaraqorum is a mixture of Chinese and Tibetan, but the Confucian country cannot use it!

2. The Chinese culture is highly influenced by Buddhists, and the Confucian is indeed a mixture of Confucianism-Buddhist-Taoism (see Three teachings). Therefore, there are so many monuments in China that are related to Buddhist (Chinese Buddhist/Mahayana). Here is a list of some famous ones:

Mogao Caves, Yungang Grottoes, White Horse Temple (there is a province trigger modifier in Luoyang in eu4!), Leshan Giant Buddha, Mount Wutai, Longmen Grottoes, Hanging Temple, Shaolin Monastery...

Of course, I don't expect that all of them could be added in eu4. I include this list to emphasize that the connection between China and Buddhist is really really strong. In fact, in each dynasty of China, the spread of Buddhist cannot be stopped, and most of the dynasties have a positive attitude to the Buddhists. Therefore, I hope some Buddhist monuments can be found in China subcontinent and the country that has harmonized Buddhists can make use of those monuments.


Best wishes,

​

​

The Japanese are really getting the short end of the stick when it comes to Monuments.

The religion of Shogunate Japan was Buddhism.

The in-game Shinto religion was supposed to represent the Buddhism combined with strong local Japanese traditions later known as Shinto.

"
Shintoism is the ancient ethnic religion of Japan which over the centuries have come to coexist with Confucianism and Buddhism on the Japanese islands.
In the game all of Japan starts out Shintoist to signify the special mix of Buddhism, Shintoism and other traditions of the Japanese people.
"
In-game description^


But the new devs completely forgot this, making most Buddhist Monuments unusable by Shinto nations.

They already have THREE monuments.


Because Buddhist mechanics kind of don't work for Shinto. Shinto nations get a free event to flip to Mahayana (or Catholic/Confucianism) anyways, so it's not like the Japanese are hard-locked out of those monuments either.

That's not even an excuse for a reason. The Monuments have plenty more effects than Karma decay and there are way more than 3 Buddhist monuments. Shinto has no numerical value to change but having +0.5% prestige from a monument would still be usable.

Japan has more monuments than entire CONTINENTS, and its development totals up to more than a third of China. It does not need more buffs, nor did it get the 'short end of the stick'.

Regions like South America and Central Asia have it even worse, yet you don't see anyone whinging about religious requirements that you get free events to circumvent now do you?

Confucianism (3 monuments) and Tengri (1 monument), both religions that cover a far wider area than Shinto and have better credibility for using Buddhist monunents, got shafted worse by your logic.

In the next weeks we are going to take a more detailed look on the monuments available for Eastern and Dharmic religions, and some Pagan confessions, as we're not really happy about how the requirements are working for those religions.

It's a difficult issue, but we think it's worth overhauling this a bit, as you've already pointed very good reasons for it.

Gyeongbok Palace

Hanseong (735)

2

Culture is Korean At least one of: Has the same culture as its owner Has an accepted culture of its owner

Global modifiers: +0.25 Yearly legitimacy equivalent −0.01 Monthly autonomy change

Global modifiers: +0.5 Yearly legitimacy equivalent -5% Technology Cost −0.025 Monthly autonomy change

Global modifiers: +1 Yearly legitimacy equivalent -10% Technology Cost −0.05 Monthly autonomy change

Very Big Error in Gyeongbok Palace Art. That tall building which is placed behind right of main building is modern museum building that is built in 1972. That building is used as National Folk Museum of Korea now, but because of huge historical error it will be tore down until 2030. That tall building has to be removed from art, because it was not existed at all in EU4 period.

(Image of National Folk Museum of Korea building.)

Devs the Morro Castle is in the wrong location; the one pictured in the icon belongs in San Juan not in Havana, consider moving it please!

Edit:

Added the pictures for comparison; the fort pictured is Castle San Felipe del Morro, in San Juan Puerto Rico. This Castle along with Fort San Cristobal were the biggest Spanish fortifications in the New World and should be represented correctly.

Just posting it here in case the devs didn't see my post in the DD thread.

There are some mistakes about the Monuments art, you're right. We're fixing the pagoda next to Gyeongbok Palace really quick, as it's a minor fix (from artists PoV). About the others, Fuerte del Morro image has been mistaken, and Walls of Benin could be improved, TBH. As these would be entire redrawing of the pictures, it may take longer to fix it, so I can't promise when we'll be implementing it.

I have a few suggestions: there's various monuments representing homes of the head of state (the Doge's Palace, the White House, etc.). While historically, several monarchs did maintain palaces away from their capitals, I'd suggest that at least some such monuments include a requirement that the province be your capital.

I'd also suggest that, for the White House, you allow for other colonical cultures (Mexican and Brazilian - maybe include a French or Germanic version, too!). Or, perhaps instead of restricting it culturally, you restrict it to post-colonial tags.

The White House requirement in the DD was a typo, actually (my fault, I relied in a non-updated design document when posting). These are the requirements needed to build, use or upgrade this monument as it's been released:

owner = {
OR = {
is_former_colonial_nation = yes
tag = USA
}
}

Gyeongbok Palace is the only monument that Korea gets right now — I do believe it deserves something a bit more unique than a rather boring legitimacy/tech cost modifier.

Level	I	II	III
Local Modifiers	-5% Development Cost	-10% Development Cost	-15% Development Cost
Global Modifiers	-0.025 Monthly Autonomy Decrease -5% Advisor Cost	-0.05 Monthly Autonomy Decrease +1 Monarch Admin Skill -10% Advisor Cost	-0.1 Monthly Autonomy Decrease +2 Monarch Admin Skill -20% Advisor Cost

The -10% tech cost modifier should instead be for the Hangul Alphabet national idea for Korea — makes no sense how the Manchu alphabet idea (used to) give -10% while the Hangul alphabet only gives -5%.

Will take into account your suggestions for the monument.

Who is his mind would want to form Colombia or Cuba now when you can have those OP bonuses for yourself? the colonial nation is not worth it. The new meta is going to be for Portugal to form those colonial nations so that Spain keeps those 2 provinces for the stupidly powerful bonuses. And may God have mercy on your soul if UK takes Havana and Cartagena, the wooden wall + those 2 monuments = naval supremacy for the rest of the game

Am I supposed to believe that paradox test team is so incompetent that they didn't think of that possibility?

Edit: a dev answered saying that the 10 hostile fleet attrition as a global modifier is a bug, is supposed to be a local modifier for Colombia

Both Cartagena de Indias and Fuerte del Morro have been fixed. We've also added a couple new modifiers for Cartagena, as we felt it's state was a bit weak (trade power from ships, and prestige from naval battles). We'll be also tweaking a bit Fuerte del Morro, as we've created a new modifier, so give a X% of naval force limit to the overlord; however, that change will have to go into the second hotfix, as it takes a bit more of time to test that a new modifier added works fine.

 

[Pavía]

Can you do something Castle in Marienburg. Extra Legitymacy and 10% Mercenary cost are not worth too invest it.

We may think about buffing the monument if the community thinks it's a bit weak, yes.

The problem with El Morro is not the image, it's the location in Havana. The focal point of the Spanish defenses for the Caribbean wasn't that smaller fort in Havana it was the entire walled city of San Juan with the better harbor and more easily defensible location. In the age of sail San Juan was the closest island with fresh water and supplies to Europe. The entire fort complex (El Morro and San Cristobal) took 250 years to complete from 1539 to 1783.

The Dutch and the English attacked the island on several occasions throughout the timeline of the game including a famous battle in 1797 in which the British army that conquered Trinidad tried and failed to conquer Puerto Rico

El Morro and San Cristobal were the biggest forts built by the Spanish in the New world.

Really good feedback, thanks to you. We'll think a bit about if we move the monument from La Havana to Puerto Rico, or if we redo the art of the monument; you've given us some food for thought.