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META THREAD: Complaints about the game

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I am not pleased with the rate of progress this game has made towards being playable.
I know I should be patient, but its been a long time, and I still can't rightly say that the game is close to being done.

People talk about how its almost where it should have been at release and its not true.

Mecron talks about stuff that might be coming in the expansion, and I can't help but think that expansion is something you add to finished games, not something you start working on as a way of fixing the things that you couldnt add in to the original game. I'm not saying he shouldnt be talking about expansion at all, I just wonder how he starts deciding what stuff that should have been in the original will just have to wait until the expansion.

The game is not done; there are
1) Missing core facets of gameplay; diplomacy and scavanging which will supposedly compensate for a unbalanced tech tree, for example.
2) Missing modes of gameplay; no scenarios.
3) Missing techs not implemented in game.
4) Missing UI interface features.

The game is not balanced
1) The AI is still functionally retarded, with no grasp how to do any of the x's in 4x games
2) Little effort has been made to adress game balance. Techs are arbritary in their cost to rewards and critical bug fixes have prevented the normal cycle of minor adjustments games need to function correctly.

And i could go on.

I alternate between hope and despair with this game, and I still see people posting about how good things are now and when others point out the many problems still inherent with the game, they get shot down.

I wish so hard that this game would work the way it was meant to, but I am no where close to being satisfied that we're even close to that point. At best maybe 1/2 way there, and progress has been very slow.

I start to think that talk about how the game will be completely done before expansion comes out was dishonest, not because i think poorly of the people who made this game, but because i think they have no choice in the matter. Time is not on their side, they are running out of time before the same forces that forced them to release early will be forcing them to start working on expansion.

P.S. How will we know when the game is done?
Answer = When you could rightly call it a game. The definition of a "game" includes the possiblity of LOSING. As the "game" currently is, not only can the AI not win against a human player even when set to "hard" because it has no idea what its doing, it can't even attack you unless you attack first or refuse when you ask it to surrender. Effortless victory is not fun.
 
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I agree with your assessments and your position Skyburn. To bad you I will soon see a banned tagged next to your name too. Remember it isn't for us to question or argue (as our free rights) but to bow down and worship whatever crap they give us.

I think that ship with the umbrellas is an amazing representation of what is going on with this game and it's associates.

I am not happy with the game. I am not happy they refuse my refund request. I am not happy that those who voice their opinions (yes even as negative as they are) are banned or flamed down as haters.

For all you fanboys I have a half finished shed that leaks, no plumbing, no AC/heater, no furniture but for a chair, and no door for rent. I can rent it out for say $500/month. I am sure you will be very happy with it as I promise that I will fix it up later...I may even expand it to an addition with a hot tube. How would you like that?
 
U know I wish i had been smart enough to ask for a refund too, foolish optimism blinded me to the obvious fact that the "fixing" process would take long enough that the game would reach the bargain bin before it reached "release-worthiness", but what really makes me angry about this game isn't the 50 bucks i could have saved, but the tremendous let down of my high expectations. I really WANTED this to be at least as good as SotS prime.
 
I don't foresee a ban for skyburn, he's always been civil and well spoken. Having an opinion isn't a problem, not following the rules is (I say this having recently received a warning myself).
Edit: offically, Kerberos will announce an "all's clear" once the game is done.
 
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My biggest worry, still, is not that they won't finish it. So I wouldn't worry too much about that, or the expansion coming too early... Paradox has practically admitted guilt, given their word, and even if we assume (hypothetically) they are heartless to the consumer, they still have to save face. A lot of face.

No, my worry, which is far more grave I think, and I've already posted... is that once its fixed it still won't be fun. The game is getting into a condition that its almost playable- and what we can see, in my opinion, is nowhere near as good as SotS1, or any 4x worth its salt. Not just polish, but on a fundamental level, a design level.

All the things that should be simple are complex, all the things that should be complex are simple.

Yes, the graphics are pretty. And yes, the new ship design elements are nice. But almost every other feature of the game- missions, prototyping, feasibility, admirals, you name it...- it all only serves to get in the way of the 4X instead of make it more fun. The tech trees are significantly more linear regardless of what kind of salvage or scavenge or feasibility re-roll system they add. Your fleets are severely limited in their number, size, and what they can accomplish at a given time compared to SotS1 or any 4X game, and you have the added hassle of only being able to use ships with a commander escorting them, even for planetary defense or secondary or even support roles like colonizing. Its so much more to keep track of, and just for more hoops to jump through to accomplish things.

It needs a lot more then polish. Kerberos getting this game fully playable is only the first half of getting it to be a good game.

Speaking of which, before they can even begin to address problems like that, they need to get it working in the first place. There are still so many systems not hooked up, barely working, or not even started yet as it is. Saying the game would be "release quality" by Christmas was a gross miscalculation, and I really don't have any more faith it'll be "done" by February, either.
 
I agree with some but not all of what you've said. I still think there is potential for a good game underneath of all the problems, but they won't automatically have a good game once everything is "fixed". Any game needs a period of time where small tweaks are made for the sake of game balance and improvements. SotS2 will not have that time. At best maybe they will have time to tweak things to where they need to be for a "finished" game to be "good" after they release the first expansion in that period where there isnt anything critical to fix and no financial pressure to publish the next thing. I still think this game could be good, I'm just losing hope that it will be before the expansion comes out.

Missions - I'm ok with - could use streamlining
Prototyping - I'm ok with
Feasibility - I dislike strongly
Admirals - I kinda like
Linear tech tree - I dislike strongly (end techs near impossible to get)
Limited Fleet number - I kinda like (adds more strategy)
Hoops to jump through - poor interface problem, sucks as it is - fixable
Too much to keep track of - lack of good control/info screens - fixable
 
Ima jump right in this is my first complaint in the complaints thread that i can remember, i was very hopefull and decided to hold on to my copy and ride this out. Yes i bashed the on the release day for their lies and disregard for the consumer by releasing a not finished hell not even post-ALPHA stage game. What really pisses me off now enough to post in here, as i mentioned in another thread is that they PROMISED weekly patches until the game was ready, they started great on that promies they even gave us 2 patches a week, NOW they have dropped to 1 patch each 2 weeks. This is unacceptable. You should not be planning an EXPANSION that will cost us MORE money before you even have a FULLY playable game.

I agree with the last few posts to some degree, but i mainly agree with Skyburns last post, the game does have a diamond core in amongst the crap and gunk on top.

Missions: im all for them except that i cant just leave a fleet for defense without selecting Patrol missions.
Prototyping: i have to pay couple hundred k everytime i change one lil thing on my ship designs......this makes researching new tech kinda pointless and overly expensive. OOOh i just researched X-rays, only slightly more better then the previous laser, but now i have to spend 300K to update each ship design i want to have it.....STUPID, if they added in a "Retro-fit" option, which only makes u pay a lil for small updates (say just changing the lasers) i'd be happy with the system.
Feasbility: its ok as long as it never takes more then 2 turns to study feasbility, at least theres a chance u can get techs u normaly wouldnt get.
Admirals: Admirals are good but it shoudlnt be you have to absolutly have one for a fleet. they should be an added bonus, the expection not the rule as one could say. I miss being able to just build a small fleet of 3 ships for each planet as a mini defense.
Limited Fleets: Annoying as all hell, especially late game when u have 50 or so systems to defend and NO SATELLITE DEFENSES!!! Even with SDs its impossible to survive an attack on a planet without a fleet guarding it. Whihc means i have to know exactly when a random encounter or an enemy attack will occur....im not psychic
Way too much to keep track of: There is way too much to keep track of and the UI is substandard, i like most of it but a lot of it needs toning down or beafing up. An example, in my money managment u have the pie chart with several lil sections, each a certain color, when u slide the bars on each it changes. however it dosnt show u which color is WHICH slide bar/system. make the bars match their respective part of the pie, so i know which is defense, which is trade, which is intel, so on and so forth. I want to know where my money is going.
Combat UI is nowhere near as intuitive as the original: U have several lil icons like the concentrate fires and things like that that we have NO idea what they are at all. I had to use the wiki for this, and i still cant remember what each one stands for. In sots prime i didnt use any manuals or wikis, i learnt the first time i fought...why? cause its way MORE intuitive. easy to learn hard to master as you like to claim, yes sots prime was. This sequel is more Impossible to learn, hard to master. I like how in sots prime it had the ship picture up the top right when u select a ship during combat, showing you wat ship, what class and most importantly the weapons and their status. Can you honestly say that you can remember the name and design and exactly what weapons each of your ship designs have? no you cant, no one has that good of a memory in a game like this, where you play over several days. So why take out this awsome feature that shows you what your using what its got and how usefull it is? Bring this back to sots2 and combat will be a lot better.

There are many more issues here but i cant be bothered cause most of them have been pointed out. I just wanted to rage at the fact that its been a couple months and i still cant play a game that i eagerly anticipated since its first announcment. Never have i been let down by a game company as much as this, aside from Ubi-soft which is started boycotting after their online DRM bull crap. I dont want a refund.....i WANT MY GAME!!!!!! Im unemployed, living off sickness benifits due to a medical condition, i get VERY LITTLE money. i chose to spend $50 on this game as opposed to many other things that would have been better for me, i just want my fricken game, finished completed and PLAYABLE.

Phew rant over, having said all this i still hope for the best with this game, tho like many others before me i fear we will end up with a game that will never live up to the hype and its previous title Sots Prime. Sots Prime remains to this day the ONLY game that i still play years after i purchased it.
 
I am not happy that those who voice their opinions (yes even as negative as they are) are banned
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Right, i remember some myself.

Put the game to shelves, come back in 12 months and hope its somewhat playable then. Although i fear its not. Dont waste your precious lifetime on this, do sth thats making more fun, like.... going to toilet for example...
 
Ozi0815 said:
Right, i remember some myself.

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You should, seeing as you are a sock puppet for one. I was content to let you stay, but if you cannot restrain yourself You force my hand.
Next time you will force me to issue an ip ban as well, let's try and avoid that shall we.
 
Kinda wondering why people thought it'd be done in December. As much as people like to compare this to Elemental, that game was at least *mostly* complete and bug free (just boring and poorly designed). This game was a mess, and might not be a good game underneath. It'll take at least another few months (my guess is half a year earliest) before it is a decent game.
 
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A lot of the things you pointed out I actually like.

Missions: They did this so that late game you wouldn't have to micromanage 20 colony ships and 30 fleets that you couldn't remember what you sent them to do 5 turns ago. This also has several added benefits, the AI will now has a much easier time deciding what actions to take as there are fewer things it can do. I think the only thing wrong with it at this point is the UI for fleet management is sub par at the moment.

Prototyping: This is something I really like. In prime I would research a new laser or something and then I would feel like I had to redesign all my ships to use it. Then 3 turns later I'd do it all over again. This is annoying, but optimal play demanded that you do it. Now due to prototyping there is a cost associated switching up your design so that you think, humm maybe I should get a few combat techs altogether before I start building some new ships, and safe in the knowledge that the AI is under the same pressure, that's exactly what I'll do.

Feasbility: This is way better than how it used to be. It used to be you wouldn't know a tech existed unless your race happened to roll it, or you went to a wiki and spoiled yourself on the game. This way you see that a tech exists, but you may not get it this game, but you knew it was there, so you can still aim to get it next time you play. This allows people like me to play without humping the wiki all day unintentionally learning all sorts of spoilers that I would much rather have discovered in game.

Admirals: The reason you need admirals right now for defensive fleets is because they haven't yet implimented defense fleets. Soon you'll be able to drag ships from the reserve fleet into the defense fleet. Naval stations already have upgrades for using this, once it gets put in You'll also be able to add defensive structures, police cutters, and things that maintain the planet, like node bores which will automatically maintain the node lines for zuul. I was really hoping the simple case of a defense fleet would be in this patch, as that is one of the last things I feel I need to make this playable.
Limited Fleets: Same as above basically

Way too much to keep track of: Yeah the UI is sub par, that's crappy but it is improving gradually I guess.
Combat UI is nowhere near as intuitive as the original: A few tooltips would go a long way toward helping in this. I do agree with you on this, the UI needs some work, but I don't think it would take very much.
 
I agree with Skyburn as well...

I held on and they just have not finished the game. I keep getting the feeling that Paradox and Kerobos said what they said to minimize the loss of revenue due to refund request's.

I also can't accept the last statement from Paradox...CEO i mean you don't have to learn ..not to release a game before its done. Hence as a publisher (Magazine/Book Print media) i can't go to print with half a magazine from one of the art departments and then say we will release 8 pages per week over the next month to make up the full 120 pages of the magazine.

This is an over site of the publisher and if they will do it once they will do it again.

My stand is this:

1) Never buy a preorder from Paradox again until they have regained my trust and that will take a few years.
2) Let other guys be the fools who get hyped and hence get caught out...
3) Never support a Arrogant development house...Kerobos CEO is dripping with that stuff!
4) Pay with PayPal / CC and not with Steam so that i have 40 days to dispute if this happens again.

This situation hurt every title Paradox Publishes... no matter who they are... because now i expect incomplete products from Paradox!

Regards :mad:
 
Felconian said:
I agree with Skyburn as well...
My stand is this:

1) Never buy a preorder from Paradox again until they have regained my trust and that will take a few years.
2) Let other guys be the fools who get hyped and hence get caught out...
3) Never support a Arrogant development house...Kerobos CEO is dripping with that stuff!
4) Pay with PayPal / CC and not with Steam so that i have 40 days to dispute if this happens again.

This situation hurt every title Paradox Publishes... no matter who they are... because now i expect incomplete products from Paradox!

Regards :mad:
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Paradox certainly needs to shoulder plenty of blame for this mess and hopefully they'll be more careful about whom they'll do business with in future, but right now they're in damage limitation and crisis management mode - saving whatever turns out to be salvageable from SotS2-gate.

Because, as all of us have already noticed, it's still months from being feature complete and several more from being balanced enough to be considered finished in any meaningful sense of the word.

But that said I'd pre-order HoI4 today if I could; I'll probably skip any SotS2 expansion out of principle though.
 
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Kesselschlacht said:
Paradox certainly needs to shoulder plenty of blame for this mess and hopefully they'll be more careful about whom they'll do business with in future, but right now they're in damage limitation and crisis management mode - saving whatever turns out to be salvageable from SotS2-gate.
... But that said I'd pre-order HoI4 today if I could; I'll probably skip any SotS2 expansion out of principle though.
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Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that without having had a mound of pre-orders just sitting there tempting an early release of the incomplete/alpha/etc game, the scandalous release would not have happened. When we cannot trust the integrity of developers and publishers, WE must start shouldering some of the responsibility, and NOT enable such activity again - enable by going along with any scheme which shifts business risk from the business seeking profit to the customer/consumer seeking product... So, I for one have vowed to never PRE-ORDER anything from Paradox (and maybe any software house) ever again.

You can't un-break an egg... or un-betray a trust. From here on out, back to the "olden days": Let them release the game, get reviewed, and then see what their market does - good or bad. Value is rewarded; trash is punished. It's a good thing.

P.S. - yes, I was one of the pre-orders, and a huge SotS fan.
 
That's probably the rational course of action. The point of the last sentence of my post was that this whole business has made me loose faith in Paradox as a publisher but not as a developer.
 
Paradox make mistakes - and they certainly did with SOTS][, which I do own - but it's not fair to paint them as rogue traders always out to cheat their customers. The launch of CK2 has been spectacularly successful and the game is fantastic, and I am very happy that I preordered it.

I'm still not happy with SOTS][ and I have given up with it for a while. But the gaming world would be a poorer place without Paradox!
 
Blackwarder said:
Did any of you actually played the game on the last couple of weeks? Can you honestly say it hasn't been improved?

Warder
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The problem is not the pace, is the actual distance from "complete" or "fun-playable". I has been a while since the game was launch and it will still require several months to be completed (I really wish to be wrong :sad:).

I still hang on to faith & hope, but I won't say I don't have some bitter taste on my mouth about it.
 
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