Mod announced: The Punic Wars

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The Punic Wars​

A Vae Victis mod for the Grand Campaign​

Introduction​

Since I was a little boy, I have been fascinated by the Punic Wars and the great stories that surround it. In my mind, few other conflicts countain such a powerful and profound "what if" factor. Hence, I was genuinely thrilled when I learned some years ago that Paradox was making a game about republican Rome.

So when the game was released, I couldn't help feeling a little underwhelmed -- like so many other people. While I did like some of the features of Rome and I had some genuine fun playing Vae Victis (with the senate and its factions, with the potential of renegade regional governors to act as an anti-blobbing mechanism), the world of EU:R still felt too static for me -- a few decades of gametime usually led to the same predictable situation where two or three superblobs dominated a large part of the mediterranean basin.

To add insult to injury, the Carthaginians always seemed to be underachieving, never putting up much of a fight. That probably was the main reason why I grew bored of my games so soon, and quit them prematurely. In the main campaign, I seldom saw an epic struggle with Carthage. I certainly never came as close to defeat as the Romans were after Cannae.

Thus, while I love classical history, I concluded that from a gameplay perspective the timeframe turned out to be less interesting than, say, Renaissance Europe with its endless political strife, religious upheaval and colonial competition. So I went back to EU3 (and the complexities of Magna Mundi).

Then Again...​

Of course, this game is an abstraction. Of course, I can’t expect the ai to be as brilliant a general as Hannibal. Of course, this is a sandbox game that tries to reshape history and escape determinism. I know, I know. But still, this is a game about republican Rome, for god's sake. Carthage should be Rome's greatest obstacle to world domination bar none (with, perhaps, the risk of internal revolts and civil war as a close second). In my mind, a Rome game should be dominated by the competition and strife with Carthage. It should very much be a life or death struggle. Alas, I never felt as threatened by Carthage, as I felt by France (or even Spain, Burgundy or Austria) in EU3. The Roman-Carthaginian conflict in this game didn't rock the mediterranean world. Instead, it rocked me asleep.

A Broad Outline​

So after all this time, I’ve taken my first steps into modding. To see if I can add a few thrills for Rome and Carthage. To see if I can give the main campaign a bit more historical flavor, without becoming deterministic. I do not intend to totally overhaul the game. For me, balance is of the utmost importance. I am not aiming for an intrusive mod, but for one that gives the Rome/Carthage player some interesting options and maybe – whatshamecallit – historically plausible challenges?

I've created some first events, a few specific missions, and a few basic modifiers for Rome and Carthage. They are quite simple things really, and undoubtedly greater problems and opportunities lie in store.

Ah well, we shall see. I intend to go slowly on this. If any of you have any ideas or requests (related to the Punic Wars, of course), I’d be glad to hear them. For now: Carthago delenda est! (Sorry, just couldn't resist it)

Some Quick Glances​

Estimated time of first release (edit, november 11th): Early 2010? I'm on an break to try out HoI3.

 

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[Descartes]

Aah, I knew you were planning something. Sounds like a very good idea, I'll follow this project with interest.

 

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Thanks, Descartes! It's always good to know you're around.

Ah, to stand on the shoulders of giants.

Looking forward to your new beta release too.

 

[Woody Man]

Sounds good! I too shall keep an eye on this, great to see more people trying to reform EU Rome

 

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Just a quick update. I've made the NI "naval ethos" available from the start for Carthage (as part of her "Phoenician heritage"). To counterbalance this I've reduced its tech requirement for other countries to 3 and reduced the morale bonus to 0.2

Did some testing with AI Carthage.

Good news. She is defending herself at sea. The AI indeed picks naval ethos right from the start most of the time, starts building ships and brings the fight to Rome. Finally. I'm quite excited now !

Now, we'll see if the game isn't too much unbalanced by this. And will her momentum last? I'll keep you posted.

 

[Descartes]

And will her momentum last? I'll keep you posted.

Yes yes! This mod feels almost like an AAR.
(Good balance changes btw.)

 

[unmerged(128970)]

Aaah, very good I also thought that Carthage never felt like a real enemy. You could maybe add some strong characters to assure that their navy will have a good leader. I used to crush their ships because they often assigned a weak character.
What about events that make negotiating a peace treaty with Carthage much more difficult? I also like your idea about the events that pull Rome into the war.

Go on, I already like your mod a lot

 

[Hardradi]

All sounds good to me. I agree the new events you have already posted will make it more interesting.

You just have to figure out how to stop Egypt from attacking Carthage or vice versa. Maybe some behind the scene events to change their relations will generally diswade them.

 

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In case this of interest for you I was doing my own mod early this year for 2.1where I beefed up Carthage with the triggered modifyer:

naval_tradition_of_carthage = {
trigger = {
owns = 247 # Carthage
controls = 247 # Carthage
culture_group = north_levantine
}
trireme_discipline = 0.05 #military port
naval_morale = 0.05 #& naval tradition
icon = 1
}

Also very important for the balance imho is the different civilisation value in vanilla of 90 for Rome and only 70 for Carthage. I was changing that to 70 for Rome and 75 for Carthage.

A point of paramount importance for military balance is the availability of good leaders to both and to make sure they are actually being employed. You may well need to write a number of events to do that.

 

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Thanks for the modifier idea, Thomas.

For the moment however, I think the availability of “Naval Ethos” from the start will do the trick. That, and a small boost to Carthaginian trade income, as a result of their “Phoenician inheritance” – as long as they can keep control of Panormus, Corsica and Sardinia, that is.

Some other ideas I’m working on:

1) A new mission for Carthage that make them reclaim Corsica and Sardinia if Rome controls these regions.

2) A new modifier for Carthage that triggers if the “mercenary army” decision stands. It raises revolt risk in Corsica, Sardinia and Africa proper. --> attempt to model the mercenary wars.

3) A new modifier called “Iberian silver mines” that gives a small revenue boost for the owner of Oretani and the adjacent province in Iberia. It triggers with a mean time to happen of 6 months. --> This tries to reflect the ore and mineral richness of the Iberian peninsula.

4) A new decision “The Barcid Empire” that can be activated if Carthage owns at least 6 provinces in Spain, has a stability of 3 and a Barcid governor. It gives a considerable bonus to manpower, but a penalty to tax revenue and ruler popularity. --> This should reflect the high degree of autonomy the Barcid family enjoyed in Spain for decades (where they installed a de facto hereditary rule). This enabled them to raise considerable armies, but their pseudo independence did not sit well with the Carthaginian aristocracy.

5) A new event “To rule the waves”. It gives the player/AI the option to expand the Carthaginian navy at the start of the grand campaign with a number of ships , in exchange for a considerable amount of gold. If the player/AI declines the event, naval morale drops for a couple of years. --> Historically, the Carthaginian navy had no equal in the Mediterranean at the start of the grand campaign. However, because Carthage owns only one lumber province, fleet construction is stunted for quite some time. I toyed with the idea to add another wood resource, but reconsidered. After all, securing resources should be a part of the challenge for the player.

6) Some events that give good rulers and generals to Carthage from game start (thanks again, Thomas).--> The Barcids, of course. But they will have a good chance of getting lots of rivals, like Hanno the Great.

7) Something to discourage Egypt from going to war with Carthage. Maybe an (AI only) event that raises relations between them when certain conditions are met, but this feels artificial – and a bit deterministic. Or maybe making Cyrene into a small buffer state?

I have lots of ideas and drafts, but let’s take it one step at a time.

Thanks for your continued interest, all!

 

[Darthvegeta800]

Very nice ideas.
However don't forget gamebalance. If you give something to Carthage, do so too for Rome.

1) Rome should have an advantage manpower-wise - landbattle wise
2) Carthage early on should dominate Rome greatly on the seas, it took a while before the Romans adapted
3) Giving Carthage better generals may be good... but is not without danger gamebalance-wise.
4) Carthage should certainly be able to colonize/expand faster in Iberia.
5) Carthage relied heavily on mercenaries. Is there a way to reflect this?
6) Objectives. Perhaps working with more and historic objectives, one could slightly guide the A.I. and player to favor certain actions?
7) Be careful with the influencing of Egypt etc. As it is part of the 'fun' of the game if Egypt decides to go for Carthage. Also Rome was involved in conflict in the Greek world at the same time as it was still troubled by Carthage. Perhaps something to take into account?
8) Pre-set National Ideas... might this be a good thing for the mod?

 

[Descartes]

Or maybe making Cyrene into a small buffer state?

Sounds like a good idea. Cyrene was more or less a vassal of Egypt between 431 and 478 AUC, ruled by first Ophelos and then Magas, so it makes perfect sense to keep them as a tributary nation. You might need to add Atropatene to weaken the Seleucids, though.

 

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Very nice ideas.
However don't forget gamebalance. If you give something to Carthage, do so too for Rome.

I know. Like I said in my introduction, game balance is paramount for me. However, I am convinced that Carthage is underperforming and needs more help than Rome. Hence, I am tackling the Carthaginian side first and foremost.

1) Rome should have an advantage manpower-wise - landbattle wise

Rest assured I do not intend to make Carthages manpower pool as big as that of Rome. Historically, Rome could muster more than 500000 men at that time, I believe. But Carthage should have a fighting chance, on sea and on land.

5) Carthage relied heavily on mercenaries. Is there a way to reflect this?

They have some decisions, but those are a bit weak at the moment. They need to be spiced up. Of course, relying on mercenaries should be dangerous too. I intend to make it so. Balance, indeed.

6) Objectives. Perhaps working with more and historic objectives, one could slightly guide the A.I. and player to favor certain actions?

I've already added 3 more "historical" missions for each side.

8) Pre-set National Ideas... might this be a good thing for the mod?

As I've said before, I like pre-set national ideas à la Magna Mundi. A lot. But I'll leave that kind of (more intensive) modding to experts like Descartes, Hardradi and others. For the time being, the small addition of Naval Ethos form the start (for Carthage) already has a significant effect, I think.

 

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Sounds like a good idea. Cyrene was more or less a vassal of Egypt between 431 and 478 AUC, ruled by first Ophelos and then Magas, so it makes perfect sense to keep them as a tributary nation. You might need to add Atropatene to weaken the Seleucids, though.

Great. Maybe I should take a look at Hardradi's African mod for that. Thanks.

 

[Hardradi]

Great. Maybe I should take a look at Hardradi's African mod for that. Thanks.

Go for it.

Actually you should find that the African tribes and other minors are fairly well represented by this mod over the time period you are looking at. Not much attention was focused on Carthage.

 

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More quick glances, to illustrate some of the things I talked about earlier.

As you can see , I've added a member of the Barcid family to the start of the Grand Campaign. This sweet chap is supposed to be Hamilcar's daddy -- and Hannibal's granddaddy. And yessir, he was born in Barca .

This is somewhat ahistorical of course (the Barcids only rose to prominence a few decades later), but I wanted to make sure the family was available from the start of the game -- and I haven't found a way to add fixed characters to the game other than the command line that adds a governor at the very beginning.

In other news, I've had some entertaining engagements and conflicts in my private li'll wars. The puny wars sage continues, to be sure. We shall not cease from exploration, and all that.

PS. I've used some of your flags, Descartes. I hope that is okay?

 

[Descartes]

Looks great! I like the sound of the semi-autonomy decision, what kind of effects does it have?
Of course it's okay to use my flags. I'm glad you like them.

 

[unmerged(128970)]

Wow, this is a great mod development! I like your well thought decisions of balance change, sound all very good to me.
Frankly, I care more about gameplay than about the historical correctness of a family name So I think it's okay to introduce de Barcids a bit early

 

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Okay, I’m back from a little break.

A quick summary of all the things I have done till now:

- added new flags for Carthage and Rome (courtesy of Descartes);
- added two nations in North Africa: Marmaridae (gives tribute to Carthage) and Nasamones (gives tribute to Egypt): they should act as a small “buffer” between the African superpowers (courtesy of Hardradi);
- added a “standing army modifier” for republics, giving a small penalty to morale and ruler popularity if the nation keeps a permanent army during peace time;
- replaced elephants with grain in Theveste: Carthage no longer has access to war elephants form the start, which actually is a good thing (as they are too expensive and should be sparingly used, as they were in history);
- strengthened the flavor event “Pyrrhus the great” to historical levels (28000 men, but only if Epirus is AI controlled);
- Made Numidia a bit stronger, giving them Cirta province (quite "historical", it seems);
- added an event that lowers relations between Rome and Carthage if Rome invades Syracusae;
- added two starting events for Carthage, giving more flavor and providing a boost to their navy (maybe this can be omitted once the new patch arrives);
- made it possible for Carthage to pick Naval Ethos as a NI from the start (slightly lowered the bonus and the tech requirements for other nations to 3);
- made Kanmi Barcid a starting governor in Baetica (Spain)
- gave the “carthaginian mercenary armies” decision a bit more punch;
- added modifier “Iberian ore” for the nation that controls the mineral supplies in Iberia;
- added a decision for Carthage to grant semi-authority to its colonies in Iberia, giving a considerable boost to manpower, in exchange for a big penalty to tax income;
- added two decisions for Carthage: “Libyan spearmen” and “Numidian horsemen” to give the Carthaginian military a bit more flavor and some punch (inspired by Lofman’s Little Mod);
- added two decisions for Rome: “Samnite Maniples” and “Triplex Acies” to give the Roman military a bit more flavor and even more punch (inspired by Lofman’s Little Mod);
- upped the civilization levels of the starting provinces in Iberia for Carthage (we’ll see what the new patch brings in this regard) to make colonizing possible;
- Added new missions for Rome: “drive the Carthaginians from Corsica and Sardinia” and “break the Carthaginian hold over Iberia”;
- Added new missions for Carthage: “Conquer Sicily” and “Reclaim Corsica and Sardinia”;
- Some tweaks to vanilla missions for Carthage and Rome;
- Reduced Civilization of Rome to 80 ;
- Possibly some other things I can't remember right now.

A big problems that remains, is the lack of good Carthaginian leaders at the start, but Doomdark hinted the upcoming patch should fix this.

Carthage performs better with all this, but still shows a tendency to be plunged into a populist downward spiral. Egypt has to be further contained too.

But overall, I’m quite happy with the progress. As always, any comments welcome.