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[Mod] Playable Dynastic Theocracies

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"The Rock"? (A St. Peter reference, maybe too blasphemous for an actual Catholic ruler?)
"The Humble" (for converting your top title to a bishopric without true dynastic succession?)
"The Renunciate" (again, for giving up dynastic succession)
 
Okay I played a short game in 769 with V2 as a standard feudal ruler (long enough for the pope to fill the college of cardinals) and cardinal choice is a little odd but I don't think it's worse than vanilla. Usually the pope chose virtuous cardinals, one of the 8 was kind of a turd but his learning wasn't bad. He did appoint some cardinals who'd only been bishops (prince-bishops) for a couple of weeks, but it was game start so I suppose everyone was low on prestige and piety. Love the cardinal vestments and hats. There was a nice little bit of papal intrigue, my father was preferatus and died under suspicious circumstances.
 
Oh, that's a vanilla issue. Possibly even intended by Paradox: The Cardinals are always appointed based on their Cardinal-Score, and they get +200 for being italian, a few hundred for their opinion, 70 (?) for being prince-bishop, 1 per ducat invested and only 2 per point of learning and some other stuff. So the AI more or less always appoints some random italians.
While the factors themselves aren't moddable, the values are. So I could scale down being italian to 100, and give more score for a high learning.
 
Yeah. Using the ruler designer to get a Borgia dynasty is the best you can get...
Meanwhile, I've added the decision to form a theocracy to version 2.1. As well as the changes to cardinal selection: You now get +150 for being italian, +75 for latin culture group and a massive 6.6 for each point of learning. In my experience (1066) it still leads to the College being dominated by italians, but there are some others, too. The average Cardinal had from 10 to 20 learning, which seems appropriate.
 
I really want to see a lets play of a huge multiplayer game with a player Pope leading the Christian realms in the Crusades. I would try to set up such a game myself but I've not had much luck with multiplayer (rural connections are sad.)
 
I noticed something strange, leaders of peasant revolts (with no actual land and therefore no temples, just their titular revolt title) sometimes (but not always) are assigned a playable theocracy government type. I could understand a heresiarch going playable theocracy, but it doesn't seem to make much sense for a peasant leader (especially considering they're unlikely to take a temple title in revolt against an ordinary christian feudal realm of their religion.) I have not seen one win to see how it shakes out, maybe next time I see one I'll give him some goodies with the console to give him a better chance.
 
There are a few things you can do:
1) Take seduction focus, sire and legitimize sons all day. People will not approve, and you'll still have to win some land (only prince-bishop+ heirs are playable, so you'll need to set your sons up with such titles.) I'm actually not sure legitimizing your sons is even necessary, but at least acknowledge them so they get your dynasty.
2) Use ruler designer (if you've got it) to either start with some sons (who, again, you'll have to land) or the dynasty customizer trait to adopt the dynasty of another character once you've begun the game. Adopt a populous dynasty, you'll want enough unlanded sons floating around that at least one of them will accept your invitation to court so you can give him a prince-bishopric.
3) Use sketchy cheat menu or a similar mod to spawn yourself some sons in-game.
 
Indeed. It can be a bit problematic if the character you chose is already quite old, because you'll need a male dynasty member which is at least 16 years old -> you'll need to live for at least another 17 years. So if you want to play as this specific character, the easiest way is to cheat yourself a little bit younger with the console command. Personally, I used the ruler designer to make myself a 30 year old character and then used seduction.
When using the seduction focus, keep in mind that choosing the option to not let your love grow gives you the possibility to "spam" the seduction interaction, resulting in more children. That's because you cannot seduce your lovers and the chance having a child with your lover is very low (at least compared to the seduction events).
 
Concerning updates for this mod: I'm definitely planning to update it to Holy Fury, but at the moment I'm to busy doing other stuff (so busy that I haven't actually bought HF yet...). I don't know when I will have more time again, but I hope it won't take too long.
The new modding capabilities (according to the patch notes) will allow a much cleaner succession mechanic (and in case the custom elective succession isn't applicable, there's now a command to switch characters), therefore all the sketchy workarounds can be replaced by a real solution (which should result in "clean" title histories).
HF also adds cardinal clothing, so the current one can be removed (or left there, for those without the DLC).
If they allow to scope to cached traits for elective succession, papal succession could be replaced by an actual voting system (they talked about it in the DevDiary, saying it might be implemented (later)): While I think that I cannot just change the succession of k_papal_state (since there wouldn't be any cardinals then), it should be possible to create some dummy title which uses elective. On succession, the papal title could then be granted to the successor of the dummy title. Of course I don't know anything for sure, but if they implement such a feature, it might be possible.
If the election system allows your liege + your religious head as voters, I could also change the investiture succession to some elective law (which would allow you to kill of better candidates and thereby make sure that your dynasty inherits. At least thats an idea I had.
I don't know if the new crusade/coronation/baptism system works with a player controlled pope, but I do strongly believe that they localised and scripted both sides.

Maybe somebody who already has HF could tell me if the mod in it's current state is playable with HF.
If you got any ideas of what else could be done with HF, please share them.
 
Greetings!

I just found this mod for CK2 and I am very amazed by it and your work! I always wanted to play some sort of Theocracy in this game and with the divine Intervention mod I could play as the Pope but, as already mentioned in this thread, it is just not as fun as being able to have a Dynasty and the challange to fight for control over ecclesiastical institutions lands, goods and moneys. Therefore I really like your Idea and concept! I tested your mod in HF and it worked. No CTD or something like that. And I could play as Bishop of Cologne and make my way up to the Throne of St. Peter. As Pope you can even crown yourself now with HF. This could be fleshed out in the future. Only the Portraits and the Clothing you added for the players were not displayed correctly as in Divine Intervention where they could not be displayed correctly too. I looked up the portraits in the interface folder in your modfiles and by changing the number of frames to 18 in all the Sprites you created for the Bishops clothes for example, I could remedy the situation and all protraits are now displayed correctly although I do not konow why this is and whether or not this works for other players, too. I really hope you keep up the good work!Oh and One error I have found is this: After having made my Son who followed me in Office as Bishop of Cologne when I became Pope a Cardinal, my Pope died and I played on as my Son in Cologne. But unfortunately my Son lost his Cardinal Title during papal succession. I think because your succession mechanic made him Pope too for a short period of time.

A long time ago, I also created a mod of my own to play as pope and to have some funny mechanics. In that mod I made a few events which forced every Bishop (i.e. catholic theocratic ruler) who inherits a Bishopric under papal investiture law to send a letter to the pope asking for confirmation in his office and sending with it a sum of money to the papal throne as was the coustom in earlier times I think. You could accept him and he would remain bishop or you could decline and for a short period of time you would hold his title directly to be able to put another man into it. I also created events in which Bishops with low Learning could spread heresy thereby reducing moral authority. Therefore you should confirm only Bishops whith good learning . And to deal with those who spread heresy I made an event with wich you could force the low learning Bishop to be in regency, almost like a Apostolic Visitation or something, at the end of which you could dismiss him as Bishop. Also I created some modifiers to indicate that a character had different Orders of Ordination: For example Deacon, Priest and Bishop to seperate some temporal and spiritual power. When being Priest oder Bishop, I made some events where you could celebrate Mass in your Church and gain Piety etc. Maybe this system of sacramental, spiritual Status of a character can be used in a society with powers. For example the Power to celebrate Mass. And also maybe one could use the Sysem of Coronation to make somethin like ordained by Pope or Cardinal etc. Perhaps these things could be some ideas for fleshing out the mod and maybe I can help you with it if I can find some of those old events of mine. But again: Nice work and keep going!
 
A little note on the current state of the mod: I'm working on it. :)
Because it takes some time, here is a quick peak into what kind of features might come with the next version.
upload_2018-12-3_22-58-17.png

A chair is a Pope? Well apparently that's a thing now... Maybe you've got some idea what it is for.
upload_2018-12-3_22-59-53.png

I didn't really like that you didn't see why the Pope/Liege did not accept your archdeacon, so this system should make it clearer. Currently, the liege cannot be an elector, but Paradox said that this will be possible with version 3.1. The idea is that you, the Pope, your liege & some of your vassals are valid electors, but only the liege / the Pope will have enough voting power to determine your heir. The others can merely suggest candidates. Theocracy vassals and learned courtiers can be elected.
 
Lordy's said:
A chair is a Pope? Well apparently that's a thing now... Maybe you've got some idea what it is for.
Click to expand...
I can't figure it out... at first I thought it was some secret bears thing, but maybe it's to represent a vacant papacy while the conclave (possibly player included) debates the successor?

Good job with the elective investiture, it fits CK2 to a t.
 
Thingy Person said:
I can't figure it out... at first I thought it was some secret bears thing, but maybe it's to represent a vacant papacy while the conclave (possibly player included) debates the successor?
Click to expand...
I think it's a joke about papal infallibility. It's said that the pope is infallible only "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church." People joke that the papal throne (or sometimes the throne in combination with the mitre) is actually the boss. Though this doctrine was not established until 1870 so it's kind of anachronistic.
 
Thingy Person said:
I can't figure it out... at first I thought it was some secret bears thing, but maybe it's to represent a vacant papacy while the conclave (possibly player included) debates the successor?
Click to expand...
That's right: If the pope dies, the Holy See itself will take over and the cardinals will come together to elect a new Pope through an event chain. Originally, I wanted to make use of the new elective succession for this, but (a) there's no reliable way to know when all electors have voted and (b) I think it doesn't really fit: The votes should be secret and there should be multiple rounds of election until someone gets a majority. So I've scripted the whole election stuff using events: First, each Cardinal can decide whether he wants to attend the conclave (if they can attend - being imprisoned prevents you from going to Rome; the ai will always try to come). After a few days, there'll be the first election, where the player can use a targetted decision to cast his vote and the ai picks the best candidate in it's opinion (himself, their family, someone they like (friends and in case there are homosexual cardinals, lovers), characters of their own culture, etc.). If someone get's a majority, he will become the next Pope, otherwise there will be a new election round a few weeks later. Also there's a chance for a Cardinal who didn't get very many votes to say that he doesn't want to get any votes anymore (guaranteeing that eventually, the college will elect someone).
Speaking of the time it takes to elect a new Pope: Since most of the time it takes many rounds of election, it can take a while. The time in between elections is quite long, so the whole process will be very slow. If however, the election should take unusually long, an event might fire where the cardinals will be locked in a room. From this day on, the cardinals get penalties (bad events) for being in the conclave, therefore the time in between elections will be much shorter.

Oh, regarding papal infallibility: Now, there's a small chance for an event to fire when the college declined the appointment of a new cardinal, in which the Pope will think about why his infallibility. Chairs might be involved...
 
The new version really looks interesting! I just tested it and it works well. I have an Idea for further developement of the sucession law for the bishoprics. Since Medieval times there were often Cathedral chapters in a Bishopric who consisted of expierenced priests and who always had great influence in diocesan matters and sometimes even governed it and also elect their next Bishop. (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_chapter) One could impelment this System by creating the honourary title of Canon (e.g. 6 Canons) and also the title of Dean who is the head of the cathedral chapter (and regent). (This then could be something like the elder succession mechanic in african tribes, but you could appoint the canons as Bishop) The Canons could have the same clothing as the archdeacon now and could also have voting power in the election system. Also this canon title could come with quite an income as these positions often were used to accumulate money as a sinecure. Especially the Dean could have a great income. (A source of income for one's other sons and family members since you do not need to be a member of the clergy to become a canon I think)

Also a way to avoid this normal succession mechanic which could be risky in a bishopric and to ensure the succesion of your heir, one could ask the pope (or the liege) to appoint him a "Coadjutor bishop cum jure succesionis" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coadjutor_bishop) instead of an archdeacon. This Coadjutor Bishop could get +1000 modifier in the electoral system but you would have to pay more money to the pope or the liege to ensure your candidate this way.

Also: The Holy See could be named "Sede Vacante" with this picture: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...b/Sede_vacante.svg/800px-Sede_vacante.svg.png. When the Pope dies the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church together with the holy college manages the affairs of the Church. This title could be a honorourary title for the Pope to give out. (Essentialy same as the designated regent for papacy)
 
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