My game game-over every year, without my character dying. I can still continue playing for I've set my autosave to monthly, but it is quite annoying
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The problem seemed to resolve itself after the third game over, if it will happen again I will report it here.
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I didn't experience that kind of bug yet. What does the game over screen say? Who gets your titles?
If you experience it again, a savegame could be helpful. Has anyone else seen this too?
1.) My fear with such as succession law would be that the player can (assuming his dynasty is big enough) just appoint a bunch of dynasts as electors and he's got a save succession (or does the pope still keep the majority of votes?). From what I see on wikipedia, it sounds a bit like the council, right?
2.) Sounds alright, however I don't know if I want to change the name: Originally, I planned to use vicar, but that seems to be the modern version of the office of archdeacon. So I chose that. Coadjutor Bishop, according to wikipedia, sounds like the office I want to describe, however, for me this title sounds somewhat horrible: Coadjutor Bishop John of XYZ. Archdeacon seems somewhat fine, or is it totally wrong? I don't know -'ve no idea about how the church worked, I'm not christian - my sources are watching the "Borgia" series and a bit of wikipedia and of course the video from CPG Gray on becoming Pope.
3.) I think that's not really possible with the restrictions of the game. Only a vassal / courtier of the Pope/Holy See can be his regent, therefore I sadly cannot arrange that the regent has to be a Cardinal. Splitting the regency up between multiple people would end up in a big mess.
About the picture: I did think about taking this one as well. However I wasn't sure if I liked it. Does someone else have an opinion about this sede vacante picture?
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It was the same game over you get when you become landless. Nobody got the title(Thanks to this I was able to resume playing) and in history there were no "gap" or other indication that something weird happened. But meanwhile I did found a little minor bug, apparently the cardinal designation system does not work too well. In some cases(Not always) I were not able to appoint King-tier theocracy (Precisely the king of Jerusalem) as cardinal, for the voting system worked fine but then I the button to make him go to Rome had no effect and Appoint Cardinal decision also had no effect. Didn't matter how much time I tried, still no success (And I don't think it is linked but he was showed as most probable next cardinal). On three kings I tried to crown cardinal, only with one I succeeded. Another problem of the system is that while I was Pope often the cardinals complained that I didn't appointed enough cardinals, but all the spots were taken.
Anyway, if I may give a suggestion, would be nice a way to ask the Pope to become appointed Cardinal, maybe by trying to bribe him. And if you do not get elected to Cardinal may be nice a way to propose a even bigger bribe (of course, in any case, you should lose your previous one) to make him overrule the conclave's decision.
Absolutely love the way you are taking the mod,and the depth you incorporated so far. However honestly I don't much care about dynasties when it comes to choosing between playing a theocracy or building a dynasty. I know it's considered an "unpopular" opinion here,I know CK2 is all about building your dynasty,but every once in a while I don't mind playing a game the way it's NOT meant to be played.
SO...
I know it is probably too much to ask,but could you possibly provide us with a game rule that disables the "non dynastic inheritance" game over? Of course I also understand that the better part of your mod rests on theocracies being dynastic,heck it's even in the name. But still I decided to give it a shot and ask if this could/will ever be implemented?
Let it be clear that I'm not forcing or demanding anything,just asking.
EDIT: I know about the divine intervention mod,and that it's actually providing what I'm asking for. But the said mod seems to get no updates for some time now,and lacks most of the content and depth provided by your mod (excluding the dynastic inheritance of course).
SO...
I know it is probably too much to ask,but could you possibly provide us with a game rule that disables the "non dynastic inheritance" game over? Of course I also understand that the better part of your mod rests on theocracies being dynastic,heck it's even in the name. But still I decided to give it a shot and ask if this could/will ever be implemented?
Let it be clear that I'm not forcing or demanding anything,just asking.
EDIT: I know about the divine intervention mod,and that it's actually providing what I'm asking for. But the said mod seems to get no updates for some time now,and lacks most of the content and depth provided by your mod (excluding the dynastic inheritance of course).
There was a mod called Infinity in the workshop that allowed to play as your title's inheritor even if he was another dynasty, it should do the trick.
1.) To the chapters: I think it is quite similiar to a council although these people could get a great income from ecclesiastical benfices connected with these seats in the cathedral chapter. I think the problem in regards to succession and the chapter is that these chapters (especially in the HRE where the Bishops often had temporal power) often elected the bishop who would then be known as the bishop-elect but the consecration of the Bishop had to be made by papal command only, that is a papal confirmation. In temporal matters the bishop-elect could govern the diocese immediatley after election but in spiritual matters he had to be ordained or consecrated Bishop first. Therefore he could govern the Diocese in secular matters but had to appoint an auxiliary bishop or something like that for the spiritual tasks until he himfself was made Bishop. You can see the improtant role of the chapters in the time of the Reformation where some cathedral chapters were responsible for the fact that some bishoprics stayed catholic, for example the Archdiocese of Mainz whose chapter always elected catholic candidates. In any case I personally would advise to implement the chapters as honourary titles at least. Their role in succession could be modelled by giving them voting power and use the system of coronation for Bishops. Bishops who could not gain papal confirmation (coronation for kings), and therefore their consecration by divine law, could get a negative modifier like that of an uncrowned King but towards theocratic vasalls which would grow as long as you are not approved by the pope and consecrated. Maybe one could even deny the Bishop-elect the clerical clothing, especially the mitre without papal confirmation and their consecration. This may be complicated to implement but I think it would represent this system quite well but I can only advise or propose it and it is up to you to decide.
2.) To Coadjutor Bishops: The Problem with the Archdeacon title is that the incumbents of that title were not designated to follow the Bishop in his office. In a diocese there would be a number of Archdeacons whose tasks and privileges were to execute some parts of the Bishop's authority and jurisdriction in their respective territory (for example canonical visitation). A diocese was often structered like this: A simple Parish was a the bottom of the structure. A number of Parishes (usually about 10 to 12) formed a rural deanery headed by a rural dean who oversaw the parishes in his territory. A number of deaneries were then observed by an Archdeacon who acted with episcopal authority. The diocese was- the Bishop at the top- therefore splitted in Archdeaconries then rural deaneries and at the end parishes. Archdeacons were quite powerful in the time of ck2 but at the time of the reformation and counter reformation their position was slowly destroyed because the Bishops wanted to exercise their jurisdiction and authority without interference because they saw themselves the sole bearer of these power because of their divine consecration. So the responsebilities of the title of Archdeacon were splitted between the Bishop (and also his auxiliary Bishops) and the rural deans. Therefore I would highly advise and recommend to use the term Coadjutor Bishop because in canon law it would be the only possibility to go around the normal way of succession in the cathedral chapter by papal authority.
3.) I can understand your concern, maybe then just rename the designated regent of Papacy to Carmerlengo? I think this picture would be most apt to describe the status of sede vacante but this is only a humble proposition
2 things I observed during my game: I can confirm that it is not possible to appoint cardinals with a higher rank than duke. And an Idea for naming Bishops who are King tier: Maybe name them Primate or at least patriarch? Because those two ranks were above Archbishop and in the Latin Church there were quite a fewa Patriarchs and Primates (e.g. Lissabon, Venice etc.).
And in regards to sucession: After having been elected pope you have the power to nominate an heir in your former Bishopric. This is because of your claims I think. Unfortunately I cannot nominate anyone of my dyansty members and even the archdeacon system does not work under these circumstances because it is not the normal investiture but the elevtive investiture. I think in the end it may be because of the claims. Maybe remove all claims when being elected pope?
There is another thing I wanted to mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annates. So called Annates. This is a payment of an incumbent of an ecclestical benefice to his superior for granting him the said benfice. This is important in regards to the relation of Bishop-Pope. That incumbent had to pay the sum of his first annual income of his benefice to his superior. In our case that would be the Bishop to the Pope. This could also be implemented in the consecration of Bishops and so on.
It worked,thanks a lot
EDIT: Or so I thought,at the first testing it did work : Starting as the pope after a short reing I died and ended up playing as a prince-bishop (a vasal of the pope) no dynastic relation. I managed to produce an heir and ended up playing as him. However I went to test it out again later and console command killed the same prince bishop at the very start of the game...which yielded a gameover since apparently a "no dinasty" courtier inherited the title
Well like @ngppgn suggested there is a minimod that prevents game over on a non dynastic heir inheritance,and it works like a charm in combination with this mod. Now I can build my dynasty or just let the theocracy go to a random guy. So there's less stress and more variables.
And I would never even dare ask the devs such a thing,firstly because I would be wildly rebuked by the community...since reasons already known.
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I tried out to appoint a King-Bishop cardinal and as you said it has no effect. To my understanding, the give_minor_title command (which only works for religious titles since the last major patch), might be broken for king tier characters and religious titles, since king tier bishops can still be made cardinal by an AI-Pope. If that's the case, only Paradox can fix it.
But you said that you were able to make a king cardinal - how did you do that?
The event were they complain about you not appointing cardinals seems to be broken indeed and fires every 2 years. There's a condition missing in the trigger, which will be fixed. You don't get any negative consequences for not appointing any cardinals, if all spots are taken, right?
About becoming cardinal: I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but the money you use as campaign fund on the cardinal screen will actually help you get elected as cardinal (1 gold => 1 cardinal score), if you are better suited than your best vassal candidate, even though the interface doesn't display this (until you've spend enough to become the next candidate). So there's an option to bribe your way to the red robes. I could make events for this, but balancing the costs could be difficult... Using the cardinal appointment system, the amount of money you need to pay depends on your suitability - if you are already a good candidate, you don't need to spend much (or nothing at all). If you are unpious, young and not italian (or at least latin culture group) however, becoming cardinal is an investment of a few hundred to thousand gold.
Does it work good enough with this mod?
1) That seems to be a good idea. Instead of giving voting power to your most powerful vassals, the election system could give voting power to the holder of the "Canon" title holders. But I think I will make it so that you must give the title to eligible vassal bishops if you have any, in order to prevent you from easily appointing dynasts only.1.) To the chapters: I think it is quite similiar to a council although these people could get a great income from ecclesiastical benfices connected with these seats in the cathedral chapter. I think the problem in regards to succession and the chapter is that these chapters (especially in the HRE where the Bishops often had temporal power) often elected the bishop who would then be known as the bishop-elect but the consecration of the Bishop had to be made by papal command only, that is a papal confirmation. In temporal matters the bishop-elect could govern the diocese immediatley after election but in spiritual matters he had to be ordained or consecrated Bishop first. Therefore he could govern the Diocese in secular matters but had to appoint an auxiliary bishop or something like that for the spiritual tasks until he himfself was made Bishop. You can see the improtant role of the chapters in the time of the Reformation where some cathedral chapters were responsible for the fact that some bishoprics stayed catholic, for example the Archdiocese of Mainz whose chapter always elected catholic candidates. In any case I personally would advise to implement the chapters as honourary titles at least. Their role in succession could be modelled by giving them voting power and use the system of coronation for Bishops. Bishops who could not gain papal confirmation (coronation for kings), and therefore their consecration by divine law, could get a negative modifier like that of an uncrowned King but towards theocratic vasalls which would grow as long as you are not approved by the pope and consecrated. Maybe one could even deny the Bishop-elect the clerical clothing, especially the mitre without papal confirmation and their consecration. This may be complicated to implement but I think it would represent this system quite well but I can only advise or propose it and it is up to you to decide.
2.) To Coadjutor Bishops: The Problem with the Archdeacon title is that the incumbents of that title were not designated to follow the Bishop in his office. In a diocese there would be a number of Archdeacons whose tasks and privileges were to execute some parts of the Bishop's authority and jurisdriction in their respective territory (for example canonical visitation). A diocese was often structered like this: A simple Parish was a the bottom of the structure. A number of Parishes (usually about 10 to 12) formed a rural deanery headed by a rural dean who oversaw the parishes in his territory. A number of deaneries were then observed by an Archdeacon who acted with episcopal authority. The diocese was- the Bishop at the top- therefore splitted in Archdeaconries then rural deaneries and at the end parishes. Archdeacons were quite powerful in the time of ck2 but at the time of the reformation and counter reformation their position was slowly destroyed because the Bishops wanted to exercise their jurisdiction and authority without interference because they saw themselves the sole bearer of these power because of their divine consecration. So the responsebilities of the title of Archdeacon were splitted between the Bishop (and also his auxiliary Bishops) and the rural deans. Therefore I would highly advise and recommend to use the term Coadjutor Bishop because in canon law it would be the only possibility to go around the normal way of succession in the cathedral chapter by papal authority.
3.) I can understand your concern, maybe then just rename the designated regent of Papacy to Carmerlengo? I think this picture would be most apt to describe the status of sede vacante but this is only a humble proposition
2 things I observed during my game: I can confirm that it is not possible to appoint cardinals with a higher rank than duke. And an Idea for naming Bishops who are King tier: Maybe name them Primate or at least patriarch? Because those two ranks were above Archbishop and in the Latin Church there were quite a fewa Patriarchs and Primates (e.g. Lissabon, Venice etc.).
And in regards to sucession: After having been elected pope you have the power to nominate an heir in your former Bishopric. This is because of your claims I think. Unfortunately I cannot nominate anyone of my dyansty members and even the archdeacon system does not work under these circumstances because it is not the normal investiture but the elevtive investiture. I think in the end it may be because of the claims. Maybe remove all claims when being elected pope?
As for consecrations: I will see if I can come up with an idea on how to implement such a system.
2) Okay, you convinced me. As for the naming: "Coadjutor Bishop Joe of Someplace" or "Bishop Coadjutor Joe of Someplace"?
Naming of king bishops: I see your point. I just though that King-Bishops sounds terrible and therefore replaced it with Arch-Bishop... So what would be higher: Primate or Patriarch? Or are there any other factors for the naming convention?
Regarding the succession: The elective succession and switching player characters and all that stuff is kind of bugged. Therefore the game will continue to show you the succession rules for titles that you don't hold anymore, and I cannot do anything against it. Immediately after becoming pope, you are therefore able to appoint an heir using the elective succession system. But a few months later, the new ai ruler should take a decision that will turn him into a normal theocracy with normal investiture succession and you should not be able to nominate anyone anymore. Then, "invest bishop" should work. So, does you former bishopric not change to a normal theocracy (hover over the government of that character), after a few months?
It seems to at first glance,although I did get a game over once when I was playing a count level bishop and my title went to a lowborn courtier.
I've updated the mod, the newest version is 3.1.
It gives the player controlled pope the option to ask for things in exchange for a coronation and adds an event for the pope and baptisms (more details on the front page).
The Archdeacon is know called Bishop Coadjutor.
King Level Bishops are now called Patriarchs.
Theocracies now have up to three Canons (minor title grantable to theocracy vassals), who are the vassal tier electors in the Elective Investiture Succession.
Fixed that bug where the pope receives an event that he didn't appoint enough cardinals, when there are no empty seats in the college.
It gives the player controlled pope the option to ask for things in exchange for a coronation and adds an event for the pope and baptisms (more details on the front page).
The Archdeacon is know called Bishop Coadjutor.
King Level Bishops are now called Patriarchs.
Theocracies now have up to three Canons (minor title grantable to theocracy vassals), who are the vassal tier electors in the Elective Investiture Succession.
Fixed that bug where the pope receives an event that he didn't appoint enough cardinals, when there are no empty seats in the college.
I love your mod! But I think there's still many rooms for improvement. Maybe you can make the Holy See as immortal character instead? It's weird when I see Pope Holy See II and so on. I also think the bribes can be improved, maybe promise a cardinal the post of cardinal dean if they vote for you and he can accuse you of simony if you give the office to someone else.
Bribes for offices are definitely a thing I'm considering. (Although the question is: How to enforce bribes? However, enforcing the Cardinal Dean title is actually very possible.. But the title of dean is not really worth that much...). Spymaster is the only valuable office in the game...
The Holy See is already an immortal character. But where should he reside, when there's a Pope? That's why I always kill him after he's not needed anymore. I could name him Vacant Holy See / Sede Vacante, then the naming would be Sede Vacante II, which could be interpreted to be more plausible (second vacant see since the beginning of the game).
The Holy See is already an immortal character. But where should he reside, when there's a Pope? That's why I always kill him after he's not needed anymore. I could name him Vacant Holy See / Sede Vacante, then the naming would be Sede Vacante II, which could be interpreted to be more plausible (second vacant see since the beginning of the game).
I was originally going to post this on the steam workshop page (as that's where I found the mod on), but figured it was a bit long for there.
Anyways, I decided to try out the mod and started with playing as the Pope. A few issues popped up during this time.
First, I am constantly getting events telling me to add more bishops to the college of cardinals or I will face 'dire consequences'...this is regardless of the actual vacancies in the college. Indeed, the majority of the time the negative event(s) fired (both lose piety and get a negative modifier for 20 years) I had the college of cardinals full. I would hope you'd turn down the frequency of this event, or just have an option for the college to be auto-filled with eligible bishops (don't know how feasible this is).
Second, I am also being constantly spammed with events relating to mercenary companies of various kinds, all telling me their populace is up in arms about the Jews. It is quite annoying, and I'm not sure what selecting either of the two options actually does.
Third, a bunch of random rulers around the map seem to be using theocratic titles...even when they aren't one. A couple examples would be Castille being called a Patriarch, and Seville being a prince-bishop when he only owns a castle. Not sure what is causing this, but it doesn't seem to cause any major issues.
Other than those, I've been having a good time so far. Much better than many of the various attempts at making theocracies playable in the past have been.
Anyways, I decided to try out the mod and started with playing as the Pope. A few issues popped up during this time.
First, I am constantly getting events telling me to add more bishops to the college of cardinals or I will face 'dire consequences'...this is regardless of the actual vacancies in the college. Indeed, the majority of the time the negative event(s) fired (both lose piety and get a negative modifier for 20 years) I had the college of cardinals full. I would hope you'd turn down the frequency of this event, or just have an option for the college to be auto-filled with eligible bishops (don't know how feasible this is).
Second, I am also being constantly spammed with events relating to mercenary companies of various kinds, all telling me their populace is up in arms about the Jews. It is quite annoying, and I'm not sure what selecting either of the two options actually does.
Third, a bunch of random rulers around the map seem to be using theocratic titles...even when they aren't one. A couple examples would be Castille being called a Patriarch, and Seville being a prince-bishop when he only owns a castle. Not sure what is causing this, but it doesn't seem to cause any major issues.
Other than those, I've been having a good time so far. Much better than many of the various attempts at making theocracies playable in the past have been.
About that dire consequences event: I got it at one point, but apparently I messed it up again. Working on that. (edit: fixed now in 1.2)
Mercenary Company Events: I didn't write them, they are Paradox events for the Pope. Thus the weird options. If you give me the EventIDs (use console + charinfo command then hover over the event and it will show its id), then I will change it so that it is less frequent ( and I might have a look at the description and options.)
Third: Haven't seen this. What is their government type? Are they theocracies? Are you using any other mods? Save or at least screenshot could be helpful.
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hey this is thearcmage with the problem that i wasnt able to elect anyone for a time, i think i might have figure it out, it might have something to do with the fact that i was married, but later on even when i wasnt married it was still quite sporadic whether i could elect or not which led to some interesting things happening such as ending up as the antipope of asturias somehow
Ah, I see. Somehow your succession turned into the real bishopric succession, instead of "Elective Investiture". Try using the console command "succ playable_bishopric_succession".
I will include a decision to reset your succession that pops up when your succession changed unexpectetly in the next update. I don't believe that I will find the cause of that error, since weird things can happen, when you inherit other titles, etc.
Can't you elect your heir since you are antipope? That might be an explanation...
I will include a decision to reset your succession that pops up when your succession changed unexpectetly in the next update. I don't believe that I will find the cause of that error, since weird things can happen, when you inherit other titles, etc.
Can't you elect your heir since you are antipope? That might be an explanation...
The event asking you to appoint more cardinal seems to fire pretty often, even if I already have nine cardinals, which leads to the untrustworthy pope.
Sounds pretty fun until that event fires for the third time while I have all nine cardinals appointed.
Sounds pretty fun until that event fires for the third time while I have all nine cardinals appointed.