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Of course you can imagine scenarios in which they might want to oppose their own co-religionists in a Holy War even if winning would reduce the moral authority of their faith, but it doesn't seem like intended behaviour and certainly shouldn't happen as often as it does. Would imagine in real life the pope would take a dim view of a Catholic king fighting against the reconquest. So while not a bug exactly I think the weighting on whether or not they join needs some sort of tweak to reflect their likely actual religious position on the war.
So it's not a bug, but just not working as you'd like it to.
If Navarra joined because they were vassals, tributaries, allied for whatever reason or done so due to a defensive pact,
then that's how it works in the game and was/is intended, as far a i know.
Reality wasn't exactly always very zealous either.
If it works that way in vanilla CK2, then it should here.
At least this mod started as more or less script optimisation version of the game and not an overhaul mod that does its own thing.
Just my opinion of course. I'm just a user in the end.
Would still be sad if it begins to randomly change things just because.
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But they're none of those things. It is a bug or at least sub-optimal and immersion breaking. The notion that tiny Navarra thinks it is in its interests to help the threatening blob next door against a religious champion is silly.
First, you had just said in your former post that it is not a bug.
Now it is again.
Hmm...
Second, it has to be one of the things i mentioned, how else could they join a war ?
If it is indeed not, and they joined like coreligionists would for exactly religious reasons, then that sounds like a bug indeed,
assuming that Navarra is not ruled by a muslim. So what is the reason then and why ?
In the case of the myaphysites being tributaries you delivered the reason, it makes sense and similar happened historically.
Being suboptimal and immersion breaking for you should be irrelevant, if that's how it is in the game and to a degree in history
and is not obviously based on an error.
Maybe i was the only one who understood this mod as an optimisation mod first of all and not an overhaul, but i think Whizzer wold have
corrected me already. If i misunderstood something or look at it a bit too narrow, then i wouldn't mind at all being corrected.
If i misunderstood, then my disagrement with you would be gone, but as far as that is not the case it will stand.
For the assumption of a bug it could be helpful (at least for me), if you could either attach the save where it happens or a better
description on the situation and why in this example Navarra helps the Ummayads.
Then it would be easier to comprehend the situation in-game and your impression of what happens.
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I'd be happy to clarify that you understand the intention perfectly. CleanSlate is meant to fix vanilla bugs and optimize the script in such a way that the game's performance is (hopefully) improved and mod makers can more easily make whatever their hearts desire. Rather like an unofficial patch but much larger in scope. The only changes made to vanilla behavior are in unbreaking things that were broken by bad scripting and fixing dev oversights (such as mechanics from the base game not taking mechanics from a later expansion into account). Anything beyond that (e.g. gameplay changes, overhauls, etc) is what CK2Plus is for. I hope this eases any anxiety you may have over the intention of the mod.
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Thanks for clarifying. I think i'll better bookmark this post.
It was less anxiety (i'd prefer 'concern' if at all) over the intention of the mod, than worry i'd be criticising any suggestions of posters in
here wrongfully and hence be seen as presumptuous and looking rude and stupid in return.
Cheers
For the record, Navarre joining the ummiyads in a reconquista is vanilla intention if not vanilla realization.
I think there may be a bug in the "Convert to Outremer Culture" decision that is available in the character menu with 10,000 prestige.
The player's character as well as the capital county change to Outremer culture, but courtiers of the player's dynasty do not change culture as described in the decision.
The player's character as well as the capital county change to Outremer culture, but courtiers of the player's dynasty do not change culture as described in the decision.
Just two quick observations that i'm not sure about enough to post as bug reports and i would like feedback and advice,
so that i'll know if i should test this further or if it's just a misconception on my part.
1. Using the ambition "Groom an heir", but no decision on heir
As a catholic count with 7 vassals, at peace, a 12 yer old son and apparently all conditions fullfilled
i still don't get the option to "Introduce Heir to Realm" on the firstborn.
Is that known ? I don#t see anything i miss looking at the files, but i might misunderstand something.
Are there comon misconceptions on how that works and i experience that as well or is maybe a bug, which as far as i recall is also in vanilla ?
What do i miss or should do ?
2. Using the "Business" focus as the same feudal, catholic male character, but not much happens
I got the mint coin events, but not much else, not trade route or anything else. Havne't been in seclusion or busy most of the time.
Didn't have a look at the files yet.
Did you maybe change mtth for the events and i have to wait longer or have i been just been unlucky or is there maybe a bug ?
so that i'll know if i should test this further or if it's just a misconception on my part.
1. Using the ambition "Groom an heir", but no decision on heir
As a catholic count with 7 vassals, at peace, a 12 yer old son and apparently all conditions fullfilled
i still don't get the option to "Introduce Heir to Realm" on the firstborn.
Is that known ? I don#t see anything i miss looking at the files, but i might misunderstand something.
Are there comon misconceptions on how that works and i experience that as well or is maybe a bug, which as far as i recall is also in vanilla ?
What do i miss or should do ?
2. Using the "Business" focus as the same feudal, catholic male character, but not much happens
I got the mint coin events, but not much else, not trade route or anything else. Havne't been in seclusion or busy most of the time.
Didn't have a look at the files yet.
Did you maybe change mtth for the events and i have to wait longer or have i been just been unlucky or is there maybe a bug ?
Thanks for your continued testing and scrutiny.
1. Found the issue:
is_parent_of = player_heir solves it. Looks like FROM can't be used in from_potential. I trust you'll know what code needs to vacate. The fix will be included in the next update.2. Changing MTTH reeks of heresy for CleanSlate. Sounds like a case of bad luck, but I'll admit I've not tested if these events still function properly.
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Ah, great. Love that. Nice. Good to know i wasn't just suffering an oversight.
Having had a look at ze_decsions.txt i wouldn't have guessed that in a million years, while i had my suspicions in that direction.
Indeed ! (though it depends....)
Have a non-heretical smilie for that
Might be. Haven't really tried to test or verify it in comparison to the earlier 'introduce heir to realm'issue.
Will see further on if i don't get the other focus events. Maybe i just did too many feasts and smith stuff that prevented them from firing
in that particular play.
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Heritage - Child may adopt the educator's culture and/or religion feature not working with this mod, no events for culture/religion change even if you play as a child.
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I've found the same, though I have had the event fire but without the actual effect.
1) Event MNM.78009
Perfom statecraft not working outside realm
Playing in 785 as a tribal suomenusko duke my chancellor with the perform statecraft job repeatedly tells me that he "can find no ruler
who does not already hold" me in the highest regard, despite many other independent rulers close by and directly neighbouring me
having barely a positive opinion of me. Once i had a vassal , the vassal got opinon modifiers through the chancellor , but still no ruler
outside my realm. Same as soon as when the vassal had a 100 opinion of me. Seems bugged.
2) Event ZE.4120
Opinion malus wrongly applied
Circumstances as above.
The abuse_of_office malus gets applied on the marshal towards the ruler, even though the ruler should have that opinion malus
towards the marshal.
Where in vanilla its
In CL it's
That's a bit weird.
Perfom statecraft not working outside realm
Playing in 785 as a tribal suomenusko duke my chancellor with the perform statecraft job repeatedly tells me that he "can find no ruler
who does not already hold" me in the highest regard, despite many other independent rulers close by and directly neighbouring me
having barely a positive opinion of me. Once i had a vassal , the vassal got opinon modifiers through the chancellor , but still no ruler
outside my realm. Same as soon as when the vassal had a 100 opinion of me. Seems bugged.
2) Event ZE.4120
Opinion malus wrongly applied
Circumstances as above.
The abuse_of_office malus gets applied on the marshal towards the ruler, even though the ruler should have that opinion malus
towards the marshal.
Where in vanilla its
Code:
reverse_opinion = {
who = ROOT
years = 3
modifier = abuse_of_office
Code:
reverse_opinion = {
name = abuse_of_office
who = job_marshal
years = 3
}That's a bit weird.
Thanks, both have been fixed. 1) This was caused by merging two events, so it was looking for vassals and independent neighbours of the chancellor, and checking opinion against the chancellor as well. 2) Oversight, plain and simple.
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Something else i observed....bug-alarm !
1)
Peasant revolts in nomad lands on success become nomad and create a new nomad empire/khaganate.
They also spawn as feudal, as in vanilla, but they should become tribal once they won the war.
Lots of "Lowborn Khaganate"s instead.
Please fix.
Tested on nomad provinces with tribal holdings and different religion.
Probably an issue caused by the rewrite of the peasant_revolt or religious_revolt CB
or..don't know..aliens..solar radiation..bad coffee.., well the usual culprits.
2)
The heritage focus events are not firing or not working correctly,
as mentioned above by Intyrist and FifthMonarchy.
They worked under the same circumstances in vanilla (here children being imprisoned or in house arrest), so i take it's a bug.
If i saw correctly, that was also talked about in the CK2Plus bugs thread, but i'm not sure if you have fixed that for CL already ?
PS: Hmmm....i see in a changelog posted on 21st Jul, 2020 by schwarherz that
"All childhood events are now restricted to non-imprisoned".
Why that change ? Wouldn't that also mean they recieve no education and other events anymore ?
Looks working as intended in the vanilla event file (ZE.12999). Makes at least also sense while in house arrest.
One of those 'fixes' that in the past seemed to take the off-vanilla-road...*grumble*
Would seriously prefer that to work as in vanilla again.
1)
Peasant revolts in nomad lands on success become nomad and create a new nomad empire/khaganate.
They also spawn as feudal, as in vanilla, but they should become tribal once they won the war.
Lots of "Lowborn Khaganate"s instead.
Please fix.
Tested on nomad provinces with tribal holdings and different religion.
Probably an issue caused by the rewrite of the peasant_revolt or religious_revolt CB
or..don't know..aliens..solar radiation..bad coffee.., well the usual culprits.
2)
The heritage focus events are not firing or not working correctly,
as mentioned above by Intyrist and FifthMonarchy.
They worked under the same circumstances in vanilla (here children being imprisoned or in house arrest), so i take it's a bug.
If i saw correctly, that was also talked about in the CK2Plus bugs thread, but i'm not sure if you have fixed that for CL already ?
PS: Hmmm....i see in a changelog posted on 21st Jul, 2020 by schwarherz that
"All childhood events are now restricted to non-imprisoned".
Why that change ? Wouldn't that also mean they recieve no education and other events anymore ?
Looks working as intended in the vanilla event file (ZE.12999). Makes at least also sense while in house arrest.
One of those 'fixes' that in the past seemed to take the off-vanilla-road...*grumble*
Would seriously prefer that to work as in vanilla again.
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..and more.
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Imprisonment opinion malus (-30) remains and i get no released "merciful" bonus either
with a character after releasing them after a war.
Experienced when i went on subjugation war as tribal ruler with children and wife of the enemy ruler, having them imprisoned during
the siege and finally released after having won the war.
In vanilla the malus goes away on release and when released through option than it's replaced with the "merciful" opinion modifier.
Event HF.25407
Martial improvement event keeps firing even after the child became an adult with education trait
and while already left and married to another court.
Experienced that with several children by now. I haven't joined warrior lodges in vanilla much, so i can't say if this also happens in vanilla,
but it doesn't appear to work as intended or rather it appears questionable when already adult.
edit reason: changed some text after testing in vanilla
1)
Imprisonment opinion malus (-30) remains and i get no released "merciful" bonus either
with a character after releasing them after a war.
Experienced when i went on subjugation war as tribal ruler with children and wife of the enemy ruler, having them imprisoned during
the siege and finally released after having won the war.
In vanilla the malus goes away on release and when released through option than it's replaced with the "merciful" opinion modifier.
Event HF.25407
Martial improvement event keeps firing even after the child became an adult with education trait
and while already left and married to another court.
Experienced that with several children by now. I haven't joined warrior lodges in vanilla much, so i can't say if this also happens in vanilla,
but it doesn't appear to work as intended or rather it appears questionable when already adult.
edit reason: changed some text after testing in vanilla
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Something else i observed....bug-alarm !
Music to my ears!
A veritable symphony!
1)
Peasant revolts in nomad lands on success become nomad and create a new nomad empire/khaganate.
They also spawn as feudal, as in vanilla, but they should become tribal once they won the war.
Lots of "Lowborn Khaganate"s instead.
Please fix.
Tested on nomad provinces with tribal holdings and different religion.
Probably an issue caused by the rewrite of the peasant_revolt or religious_revolt CB
or..don't know..aliens..solar radiation..bad coffee.., well the usual culprits.
Well, that doesn't narrow it down much, does it? Issues with governments can be so annoying to deal with. I suspect this won't be any different.
Edit: I can't reproduce this.
This should be fixed now, the problem was indeed in CleanSlate.
PS: Hmmm....i see in a changelog posted on 21st Jul, 2020 by schwarherz that
"All childhood events are now restricted to non-imprisoned".
Why that change ? Wouldn't that also mean they recieve no education and other events anymore ?
Looks working as intended in the vanilla event file (ZE.12999). Makes at least also sense while in house arrest.
One of those 'fixes' that in the past seemed to take the off-vanilla-road...*grumble*
Would seriously prefer that to work as in vanilla again.
If memory serves, this only affected a few of the old childhood events that the game launched with, although I could indeed extend those to children in house arrest.
I recall we considered this an oversight. Characters should remember that you imprisoned them, even if you released them afterwards, just as they remember that you declared war on them, even if you surrender right after.
I'll look into it.
Edit: This appears to be functioning identically to vanilla. It specifically requires the child to be under 20 years of age.
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It can reproduce by
- Play as an Khagan with feudal vassal
- Trigger a revolt on a realm province of that vassal, it should be peasant revolt if other types are unavailable
- Surrender
revolt 658(IASI) for demo
It seems
usurp_title_plus_barony_if_unlanded used in peasant_revolt: on_success_title allowing a character holds county titles with empty capital holding.After the cb executed, the rebel title is destroying and hardcoded HL mechanism will spawn a clan and khanate for whoever holds a county title with empty capital holding.
Possible fix:
I tried to catch the clan title on_create_title or on_new_holder, but no luck.
So a cb modding is possibly required to mend this problem.
If you're going to use other revolt_cb as base template, there's a bug to beware of.
Code:
occupy_minors_of_occupied_settlements = defender
gain_all_occupied_titles = {
who = defender
type = revolt
}
...
vassalize_or_take_under_title = {
title = PREV
enemy = defender
same_religion = yes # Only vassalize rulers of my religion
is_religious = yes
type = holy_war
}While religious/heresy/national revolt has another problem with horse lords...