New beta: C.O.R.E. v0.91 ***General Discussion Thread***

[shnuskis]

Those free transports must be CORE .9 because I sure didn't get a single one in .84.

While I agree that it is cheesy to parahop arround I believe that the tax shoud have been applied to the paratrooper unit instead of the transport. If you want to curb paratrooper use, then charge 40 IC for the paratrooper. That would remind you to use them as such, and not as leg infantry (Monty anyone?)

Oh well, I guess is time to get gauged because the game can be gamed. Gah, I stopped playing WWII online because the devs answer to any imbalance was to hit things with the nerf stick. It's just sad to see the same philosophy applied here, specialy on the eve of HoI2

Thanks for the quick replies everyone.

Once they are on the ground they are as leg as any other leg unit and WERE used as such, I believe. I like the extra tax on the transport since the only use for the transport is paradrops.

IRL it only takes three weeks to train any unit to jump out of a plain(faster than that during war). Seems unrealistic to put a huge cost on the paratrooper when it is just a leg unit falling out of a plain letting gravity do the work(just joking, I know a little extreme.)


Former 10th MTN leg and 5 jump chump from Ft. Benning, GA.

(my face as I fell to the ground.)

 

[unmerged(35783)]

The problem with agreeing with the tax being applied to the transport planes is that you totally forgo using transports for supply purposes and moving non paratroop units between airfields.

Granted these features are not in the game right now, but I was looking forward to seeing them on HoI2. Now, I know that the devs think of air transports as a broken unit that can unbalance the game and must be nerfed, rather that as a unit with a huge potential.

-Imagine supplying a surrounded unit by air, like the 6th army in Stalingrad.
-Imagine transporting supplies by air convoy, like "the hump" over the Himalayas.
-Imagine transporting specialist divisions by air, from airfield, to airfield, like moving your mountain trops from Austria to the Caucasus in hours instead of days.

We'll never see these features while the devs think the air transport is problem that needs fixing, rather than as a oportunity to add more layers of content.

Bolter

 

[Permanganate]

-Imagine supplying a surrounded unit by air, like the 6th army in Stalingrad.

They tried. They failed. The Luftwaffe put most of its transport planes into attempting to resupply 6. Armee. They weren't able to supply more than a small fraction of what was needed, and they took such heavy losses that they were only able to launch, AFAIK, one paratroop attack in the entire remainder of the war. Remember, the Berlin Airlift is still many years in the future; that airlift had the airlift capacity of the entire Western Allies behind it, and it faced zero opposition. Even a single division requires a fantastic amount of supplies and fuel each day; there's no way that either side could have had enough planes to resupply a decent force by air in this timeframe.

-Imagine transporting supplies by air convoy, like "the hump" over the Himalayas.

This is represented perfectly well by events in CORE 0.9.

-Imagine transporting specialist divisions by air, from airfield, to airfield, like moving your mountain trops from Austria to the Caucasus in hours instead of days.

Given how much space in an aircraft bulky equipment takes up, the many sorties required, and the disorganization that would ensue, I think strategic redeployment represents this quite well already, except for possible movement across bodies of water. Much of the equipment of a standard division is too big to fit in any aircraft of the time. There were divisions that could be transported entirely by air, such as the 22. Infanterie-Division (Luftlande), but those were specifically designed to have nothing but light equipment. Perhaps a standard pattern mountaineer, paratrooper, or militia division could be airliftable, but nothing else is remotely possible.

We'll never see these features while the devs think the air transport is problem that needs fixing, rather than as a oportunity to add more layers of content.

There's a difference between "let's add new content" and "let's make stuff up to put into our historical wargame because it's cool"...

Also, those two air transport groups Robert Koop mentioned are in the 1939 scenario, either Vanilla or CORE. Unfortunately, you only have one para division to put in them and it'll take months to train three more.

 

[Pro_Consul]

I had this problem in the past. After some research I located the problem. When you have a SATA disk that you want to use as c drive for windows then you first have to remove (unattach!!!!) every other hard drives!!! then you install windows and after that you can reattach the other non sata hard drives. so it is a sata related problem.

Well, SATA does appear to be related, but is not the whole problem. I made sure the SATA controller was disabled and confirmed that it already had been disabled the whole time. So I skipped to the next two steps and formatted and reinstalled Windows. This time I did not allow the Nvidia (I have an NForce chipset) unidriver to install the IDE drivers. I installed HoI, then patched it up to 1.06c, confirming at each point that the game was operable and on the proper version. When I went to install CORE 0.9 this time I did NOT get the Windows error like I had on all previous attempts. I did, however, still get the checksum and TOC errors, so I am still unable to install CORE.

I now suspect that there is some core chipset driver incompatibility that I am not going to be able to fix without sacrificing motherboard functionality, and that is something I am unwilling to do. That said, I have a few questions related to potential workarounds:

1. Is there any way to manually extract and install the files for CORE 0.9?

2. If not, is there any way to get access to the files in a standard zip format instead of the executable installer?

3. Is there any way to get access to v0.85, since it appears to be unavailable on the Coremod site? (The most recent version available on the previous versions page is 0.71)

 

[unmerged(3221)]

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.usaaf.net/ww/vol4/vol4pg6.htm.

In the hour and one-half from 1025 to 1155 Sunday morning, 17 September,
the greatest troop carrier fleet in history took off. Approximately
one-half of 3 divisions became airborne. Elements of the British 1st
Airborne Division and corps headquarters, with their equipment, were
lifted from the Newbury region by 145 United States parachute aircraft and
354 British and 4 American gliders towed by 358 British tugs. The troops
of the American 101st Airborne Division, coming from the same area, were
transported in 424 United States parachute aircraft and 70 United States
gliders towed by American tugs. From the vicinity of Grantham came
elements of the United States 82d Airborne Division in 480 United States
parachute aircraft and 50 American gliders towed by United States tugs.
The total force, including the pathfinder aircraft that led the way to
each drop and landing zone being used that day, was made up of 1,544
airplanes and 478 gliders.

Don't you think that 1.5 air transports divisions which had 2000 planes should be very expensive?

All major air operations like Crete, Market Garden, and D Day used lots of gliders. Gliders are basically 'one shot and lose them' items. Sometimes gliders were used to carry vehicles and larger guns, but these were very limited.

The air transports in HOI are and should be expensive. You probably should need to use supplies to help them regain org rather than just resting them to regain org (to represent the loss of gliders).

Parachute operations were complicated and took a lot of time to set up and execute. While jump school might just be three weeks, setting up entire paratrooper divisions and getting all the extra training that they needed was a lot more than just 3 more weeks of training. Para were expected to operate on their own a lot, to improvise, and to handle extreme situations. You need a lot of good men doing a lot of training in order to do that.

Or if you don't like our text responses, buy or rent the TV version of the Band of Brothers and see what we are writing about. Para were and are a lot more than just inf. Air transport fleets in WW2 were expensive to assemble and they did not fulfill a lot of other missions like air supply. Strategic redeployment and shipment in naval vessels to overseas locations were how the paratroopers moved around in WW2 and this is handled well in the game.

 

[unmerged(35783)]

"let's make stuff up to put into our historical wargame because it's cool"

None of the things I mentioned is a-historical.

-The air relief of the 6th army kept that army fighting longer that it would otherwise. No, it's no substitute for the real thing, but it was effective never the less. The 6th was a huge army, it would be difficult to adecuately supply it by land, let alone by air. The Luftwaffe's inability to keep them suplied then, does not mean the concept did not work in smaller scale. Example, the air relief of the Bastogne pocket. If you recall, that one worked just fine, and no, it did not require the entire western powers air assets to realize.

-A scripted event that helps a country under one situation, the hump event, is no substitute for a capability that could help any country under any circumstance. If you cannot see any potential to air convoys, a historical fact of WW2, then I won't convince you no matter what.

-Strategic redeployment works fine for territory you control, but it wouldn't work with military access in regions where you can't deploy in. Again, if you see no potential to this, I can't help you see it. Some will though.

I would just like to point out that this game is about capabilites, not historical aplications. I never heard anyone complaining about non-US countries having nukes, nor have I heard complains about jets in '42, nor Panthers in '40, or ICBMs in '45, yet you talk about "our historical game"?

I thought that the whole point of the game was to change history. If it wasn't, then Germany would never win, yet it does, a lot too.

Bolter

 

[coreymas]

None of the things I mentioned is a-historical.

-The air relief of the 6th army kept that army fighting longer that it would otherwise. No, it's no substitute for the real thing, but it was effective never the less. The 6th was a huge army, it would be difficult to adecuately supply it by land, let alone by air. The Luftwaffe's inability to keep them suplied then, does not mean the concept did not work in smaller scale. Example, the air relief of the Bastogne pocket. If you recall, that one worked just fine, and no, it did not require the entire western powers air assets to realize.

-A scripted event that helps a country under one situation, the hump event, is no substitute for a capability that could help any country under any circumstance. If you cannot see any potential to air convoys, a historical fact of WW2, then I won't convince you no matter what.

-Strategic redeployment works fine for territory you control, but it wouldn't work with military access in regions where you can't deploy in. Again, if you see no potential to this, I can't help you see it. Some will though.

I would just like to point out that this game is about capabilites, not historical aplications. I never heard anyone complaining about non-US countries having nukes, nor have I heard complains about jets in '42, nor Panthers in '40, or ICBMs in '45, yet you talk about "our historical game"?

I thought that the whole point of the game was to change history. If it wasn't, then Germany would never win, yet it does, a lot too.

Bolter

Actually Bolter alot of members have complained about certain "features" of HOI and they were rewritten in HOI2.

Examples

Strategic redeployment was totally rewritten and is much more difficult to do/maintain.

Research - Totally rewritten to avoid all of the things that you mentioned (super heavy tanks in 42, etc)

Yes the whole point of the game is to change history, but within reason -- and I think you will find (if you purchase HOI2) that all of your observations about HOI1 have been corrected.

Corey

 

[unmerged(35783)]

Are you a HoI2 beta tester?

I just want to know the skinny on the new game. I read plenty of gossip on it, but some solid info would be nice.

I used to play Axis and Allies: Iron blitz, but I stopped precicelly because my strategic options were few.

I hope HoI2 doesn't take all the flexibility out in the altar of accuracy. Games, after all, are supposed to be fun.

 

[coreymas]

No I am not - but i did apply to be one

All the information I have is based on the HOI2 forums.... If you have not been there yet you should go -- the game gets released on Jan 4th in North America.

There are lots (tons) of FAQ's, screenshots, game explainations (by Johan the almighty HOI god himself)

I think that you will like HOI2, very realistic, and enjoyable to play from what I have seen

Corey

 

[unmerged(35783)]

Cool, I'll head out there to read up on it.

 

[Permanganate]

-The air relief of the 6th army kept that army fighting longer that it would otherwise. No, it's no substitute for the real thing, but it was effective never the less. The 6th was a huge army, it would be difficult to adecuately supply it by land, let alone by air. The Luftwaffe's inability to keep them suplied then, does not mean the concept did not work in smaller scale. Example, the air relief of the Bastogne pocket. If you recall, that one worked just fine, and no, it did not require the entire western powers air assets to realize.

Not to denigrate the 101st, but the air resupply at Bastogne helped just one division hold just a tiny fraction of a HoI province for just five days (21-26/12/1944, and the air resupply only started on the 23rd). I can think of one more successful air resupply occurence, in Burma just before the tide turned, but IMO these incidents are so rare, such small scale, and for such a short period of time that they're not worth putting in a strategic-level game covering the entire world.

-A scripted event that helps a country under one situation, the hump event, is no substitute for a capability that could help any country under any circumstance. If you cannot see any potential to air convoys, a historical fact of WW2, then I won't convince you no matter what.

I see potential to air resupply as part of a game of much smaller scale than this one. But air resupply AFAIK did not successfully resupply an area the size of a HoI province, so it has no place in a game this large. I see potential in the idea of airlanding divisions, like the 22. ID I mentioned before, but the great majority of division types cannot possibly fit on any aircraft of the time.

-Strategic redeployment works fine for territory you control, but it wouldn't work with military access in regions where you can't deploy in. Again, if you see no potential to this, I can't help you see it. Some will though.

I agree that strat redeploy would be better if you could railroad units into an ally's territory or across a country that's granted you mil access. That was done a few times, like the Germans railing in units to fight Croatian partisans, or railing across Sweden to help out Finland. But it doesn't require messing with transport planes.

I would just like to point out that this game is about capabilites, not historical aplications. I never heard anyone complaining about non-US countries having nukes, nor have I heard complains about jets in '42, nor Panthers in '40, or ICBMs in '45, yet you talk about "our historical game"?

Apologies, I haven't played vanilla HoI in such a long time that I forgot ridiculous stuff like this is still in there. Play CORE and watch the ridiculous research disappear.

I thought that the whole point of the game was to change history. If it wasn't, then Germany would never win, yet it does, a lot too.

Changing history in HoI is using the technology and resources of the age differently than they did at the time. It doesn't mean units should have abilities that were pie in the sky at the strategic level.

 

[unmerged(35783)]

Permanganate,

This is CORE v.84 that I'm playing. The title of the thread kind of hints it, and the first post spells it out.

Just to set the record straight, I never suggested that all types of infantry divisions should be air-transportable. Neither did I suggest than an entire HoI province could or should be supplied by air, nor did I suggest that transport planes startegic contributions were war winning.

I didn't say any of that. I just suggested that they could help if we were allowed to use them as air convoys, to also keep Org levels from plumeting in temporarily cut off units, and as flying transports for leg units that only have their weapons to carry. Non of that stretches reality or history in any way.

If there was any ambiguity in my posts that made you draw conclusions, that's my fault.

Bolter

 

[unmerged(8319)]

Whatever the issue, you deserve a medal for including 'CORE' in the thread title. If just everyone would do that when they post about CORE

 

[unmerged(9366)]

Hoi2

IN HOI2

Reserach has been changed so I can't get super heavy tanks in '42?
Stra redploy altered so it's harder to do?

Man HOI2 will be naff.

No fun at all, if all you can do is exactly as the real war went, if tech is linked to date or hugely mroe expensive!!

Games are susposed to be a an alternate reality that resembles reality.

Not an exact copy!

POOO

 

[Permanganate]

This is CORE v.84 that I'm playing. The title of the thread kind of hints it, and the first post spells it out.

Then why were you referring to vanilla HoI to help win an argument? We both know the standard research tree is junk.

Just to set the record straight, I never suggested that all types of infantry divisions should be air-transportable.

Yes, I know; I didn't disagree with you about it, either.

Neither did I suggest than an entire HoI province could or should be supplied by air...

Yes, you did, 6. Armee in Stalingrad. If the Axis had managed that, it would have shown that air resupply of a HoI-sized unit in a HoI-sized province was possible...however, since they failed, and even the Allies probably didn't have enough planes at the time to resupply an army that size against opposition, IMO air resupply in WW2 isn't a big enough deal to bother putting in a game covering the whole world. AFAIK there was never a successful air resupply of a HoI-sized unit covering a HoI-sized province.

I didn't say any of that. I just suggested that they could help if we were allowed to use them as air convoys, to also keep Org levels from plumeting in temporarily cut off units, and as flying transports for leg units that only have their weapons to carry. Non of that stretches reality or history in any way.

The first isn't really possible on a HoI-scale for the period, IMO, for reasons I've now stated twice. The second, like we've both said, would be nice for mountain, para, and militia units.

 

[unmerged(9366)]

take it back

IN HOI2

Reserach has been changed so I can't get super heavy tanks in '42?
Stra redploy altered so it's harder to do?

Man HOI2 will be naff.

No fun at all, if all you can do is exactly as the real war went, if tech is linked to date or hugely mroe expensive!!

Games are susposed to be a an alternate reality that resembles reality.

Not an exact copy!

POOO

Just read the forum btis on explanation of new bits and pieces think it sounds good!

 

[gzav]

Whatever the issue, you deserve a medal for including 'CORE' in the thread title. If just everyone would do that when they post about CORE

True, helps me move stuff a lot faster, everyone should do it...(well, everyone except those that put CORE in the title when it's actually a general issue)...

*moved

edit: crappy Safari...am on uni MacOS X computer now, and for some reason, the "move thread" option won't work...will do it when i'm back home.

 

[unmerged(29126)]

I'm writing this as I read post by post so don't expect anything coherent ...

- Core 0.84 AND 0.9 do not have airtransports at that point in time, especially because they are so expensive and would give a lot of IC-hours for free ... with careful planning one can have 1 para-brigade/division and 1 Airtransport-Wing by 1939 ... they still can be decisive but will not allow you to exploit them

- Paras were used a lot as leg-inf: Cassino, Sicily, Germans on D-Day, 101st at Bastogne etc. certainly more often than in airborne operations ... so making paras relatively cheap and Air-transports massively expensive is the right way ...

- Paras were at the same time more and less than regular leg inf ... I can only speak for Fallschirmjaeger ... but they lacked in medium and heavy artiller, anti-tank and had fewer regiments per division, on the other hand there was a certain esprit-du-corps

- Airsupply has made it into HOI2 ... as to how effective it is : ???

- Transporting non-para troops by plane (gliders already are included in para-divisions) simply did not take place on divisional scale ... your regular german (sorry, that's the army I read up upon) leg inf division would have to airlift 5000+ horses and 72 medium and heavy artillery and anti-tank pieces ... even Mtn-divisions and "light" Jaeger had organic artillery up to 105mm plus all the transport (horses, mules, trucks etc.) ... unless there's a way to simulate a dribble of reinforcements over a period of time it should have no place in the game

- with all the reviews and threads on HOI2 there's plenty of confirmed info available on how this will pack out

- HOI2 will behave a lot more realistically ... for me that's where the fun lies ... no more Battleships for Bhurma ... but having to do the best with the resources at hand ... you'll still be able to change history ... a cut-back in a certain area might give you enough of a boost to be unhistorocally successfull in another area ... all a question of attributing the right priorities (like not researching rockets)

 

[Amona]

Great work again at CORE.
I am encountering one or two problems though.
I have run about five test games, and the Germans not even once declared war on the Soviet Union. Whats up with this?
Second, it seems as if its no longer possible to load a save game as another country. Have tried about 20 times with different countries and save files, and the game always crashes.
Any help out there?

Eeermmmhh.... I would really appreciate if someone of CORE could address these problems.

 

[unmerged(19501)]

Supplying through air is hard. It's hard to gather the planes, organize them to fly there, land, unpack and take off, even without enemy fighters. Of course, if the planes can't land they'll have to drop the supplies, just like the soviets did in Winter War to their pocketed divisions. And what became of this? Let's just say that many finns ate well after such supply drop tries...