Onin war question

[Sandam]

I not really know much about it but i had an idea that Onin war was quite small in scale... were there really 2 big clan alliances fighting each other like in sengoku?

were Takeda fighting Hosokawa and similar?

 

[Mauso]

What are saying is for the most part correct. The fighting was centered around Kyoto with a lot of the clan in the game not really being of any great importance. The consequences of the war most certainly did effect everyone.

 

[Jak9090]

but did everyone start blobbing irl?, like did the yamana absorb all of hosokawas territories or something similar?

 

[Sandam]

but did everyone start blobbing irl?, like did the yamana absorb all of hosokawas territories or something similar?

that for sure is no, 1550 is much more fragmented. the thing i dont like... is that there are 2 alliances here.. and not separate wars...

 

[Jak9090]

that's a shame, I wish the game realistically depicted the period abit more..

 

[Einigkeit]

Well, the game begins with a realistic starting point, but what happens from there is purely random, so what is "realistic" does not really factor into it. That said, "blobbing" does seem to come into play in some games quite early on... if it can be waylaid until later in the game it might slow down the frantic pace a little, so it will be interesting to see how patches will affect this phenomenon.

 

[gsp_rooster]

From what I've seen, they won't. The devs are essentially calling the blobbing an intentional feature, saying the game is intended to be smaller and faster than their other titles. :-(

 

[timetogetaway]

Then modders will fix it. Besides, what is a paradox game without a few mods that exponentially add to the game's depth?

 

[Julyan]

Blobbing isn't bad, the fact that it's so easy to keep that huge blob alive is. Vassals never get rebellious because you constantly have fresh lands to gift them, honor never drops below 100 because you've got all the money in the world to gift to the emperor and to your vassals and because everyone loves you, you can choose the best diplomacy heir you've got and further guarantee that everyone will think you're a god.
I would like to see more clans break apart, including my own. The changes wouldn't even need to be anything very major. Just fiddling with how easily honor and money is made and some opinion modifiers would do the trick I think. Clans already break apart quite nicely when the ruler have low honor and vassals from multiple dynasties but the problem is those big clans that have passed the 75 honor threshold, those clans will never break apart from the inside and if they're big enough like Yamana is at game start or after they've grabbed some lands from Kyogoku, Akamatsu and Hosokawa, they can start kicking everyone around them and grow more stable with each conquest.

The only time I've seen Yamana sort of break apart is right in the beginning when the vassals don't love the clan leader and thus some of them vote for pretenders. If Yamana Sozen dies fast enough, those unhappy vassals might just decide to form their own clan. After the first succession I have never seen anyone in Yamana get rebellious.

 

[Captain Gars]

were there really 2 big clan alliances fighting each other like in sengoku?

Yes and they were called the "Western Army" and the "Eastern Army".

The fighting was centered around Kyoto with a lot of the clan in the game not really being of any great importance.

The problem is that a game ilke this can't really depict the fighting in one city, other than hard-coding that you only can fight in one specific province, which wouldn't lead to very good or fun gameplay.

the thing i dont like... is that there are 2 alliances here.. and not separate wars...

Eh... separate wars is exactly what we do have. And there are no alliances in the game.

 

[Sandam]

Yes and they were called the "Western Army" and the "Eastern Army".

havent seen "western army" and "eastern army" terms used for Onin War anythere... unlike Sekigahara..

The problem is that a game ilke this can't really depict the fighting in one city, other than hard-coding that you only can fight in one specific province, which wouldn't lead to very good or fun gameplay.

one alliance destroying other isnt fun too. it forces game to crate blobs a bit to fast, as by 1550 where the real action should start, there are usually 10 clans left. i actually would suggest giving low honor to ouchi, yamana, hosokawa and uesugi at game start. it would encourage their breaking apart. and thats pure gameplay suggestion.

Eh... separate wars is exactly what we do have. And there are no alliances in the game.

yes there is theoretically no alliance, but if you put one group of clans fighting everyone in other group of clans its basically alliances.

 

[Cybvep]

Blobbing isn't bad, the fact that it's so easy to keep that huge blob alive is. Vassals never get rebellious because you constantly have fresh lands to gift them, honor never drops below 100 because you've got all the money in the world to gift to the emperor and to your vassals and because everyone loves you, you can choose the best diplomacy heir you've got and further guarantee that everyone will think you're a god.
I would like to see more clans break apart, including my own.

This. Blobs are OK in this game, but one would expect dynamic rise and fall of various clans, too.

 

[Captain Gars]

yes there is theoretically no alliance, but if you put one group of clans fighting everyone in other group of clans its basically alliances.

And that's what happened, you had two power blocks at the start of the Onin War. I'm not sure what you want here, that we should ignore this historical setup? Because I'm pretty sure that would have rendered the critisism that we are ignorant of Japanese history.

 

[Captain Gars]

This. Blobs are OK in this game, but one would expect dynamic rise and fall of various clans, too.

That already happens. Just this morning me and Birken looked at a game where Yamana grew big and then disappeard through plots and other clans attacking them. Same thing happened to Uesugi, and four province Satomi grew to become the second biggest clan in Japan.

 

[Cybvep]

It happens, but very rarely. Usually, the game ends surprisingly quickly, while in most cases it should end in the last decades of the game's timeframe IMO.

 

[Captain Gars]

It happens, but very rarely. Usually, the game ends surprisingly quickly, while in most cases it should end in the last decades of the game's timeframe IMO.

We're working on tweaking and ironing out a few bugs with plots so they should work a bit better with the first patch.

 

[Birken]

It happens, but very rarely. Usually, the game ends surprisingly quickly, while in most cases it should end in the last decades of the game's timeframe IMO.

Having the game end in the last decades is a delicate balance, since apart from ikko-ikki and arquebuses we have nothing that really changes at certain dates. What we had 2 weeks ago was that in hands-off games the ai usually became shogun somewhere 1585-1610 and that the biggest clan around 1550 usually broke down as a cause of internal or external plots. The ai has gotten better at winning the game since and now wins 50 years too early. Hopefully we'll get it balanced for the patch.

 

[Cybvep]

Good to hear that you are working on it. I'm really enjoying the game so far. Just joined a Toki-devised plot against the Uesugi and completely crushed them. Now I'm plotting against the Toki in order to preserve the balance of power and the odds look good. It's sooooo much fun when plots work as intended.

And it's a quite polished product for an early release. It has some issues, of course, but it's nothing compared to Vicky2's rebel spams or HOI3's performance and AI issues at the release day.

 

[DarthJF]

And it's a quite polished product for an early release. It has some issues, of course, but it's nothing compared to Vicky2's rebel spams or HOI3's performance and AI issues at the release day.

Yeah, I can't remember when a newly released game was this playable right away. Hopefully the first patch is arriving soon and we can have an even better game.

 

[Enravota]

but did everyone start blobbing irl?, like did the yamana absorb all of hosokawas territories or something similar?

AFAIK the Hosokawa “won” the Ōnin war.