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Opening the can of worms......(Timurid Empire)

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Ok, after thinking about it for awhile, I came to the following conlusions:

1. Timurid Empire never really disintegrates - sure some province turn into Persia, but Uzbeks never do anything but sit there forever;
2. Persia forms well too early - shi'ia never had much of a power until a wide spread figting started in late 1480s.
3. Uzbeks - they didn't occupy the territories they do in EU2 (Khwarizm was conquered in 1430 etc). Uzbeks were vasslas of the Siberian Khan, when they decided to separate and move south.
4. Kazakhs didn't even exist in 1419. They split in mid 1400s from Uzbeks, in other words they settled north of where Uzbeks settled.
5. I have a big problem understanding what is uzbehk culture is! Uzbeks were mongols, their culture was mongol. The places they moved to were either of mongol of turkish culture. Maybe assign uzbehk and kazahk culture (Gee someone had a big problem with spelling :D ) after they occupy certain provinces?

Anyways, that's what I am thinking.

Herat - we don't really have to create a new state, or we also can. But Herat was definitely an independent entity, and deserves to be represented.

Start with Uzbeks only in the lands of Kazaks, and give the rest to the Timurids. When the revolts start, the lands should go to their neghbours. Safawid revolt was and should start in 1480s, not earlier. Give Uzbeks a little bit more power, after all they were pretty strong.
When Uzbeks control Khiva and a couple more former Timurids provinces, split Kazaks from them.

Khanate of Khiva was founded in 1511, was a big rival of Bukhara shouldn't it also be in?

That's all for now..
 
Originally posted by Crook

2. Persia forms well too early - shi'ia never had much of a power until a wide spread figting started in late 1480s.
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This is true. Shi'ia became the majority faith only during the last decades of the 16st Century.

A suggestion: Wasn't Georgia a vassal of Persia during the 16th century?

Before that they were vassal of one of his neighbours (Northern Kuyunlu kingdom or Timurid Empire).
 
Herat - we don't really have to create a new state, or we also can. But Herat was definitely an independent entity, and deserves to be represented.
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We were talking about making herat a possible revolter, after the capital moved back to Samarkand.
 
Well the Timurids had so many capitals for various members of the family that to represent them all would take some doing! I agree that there is a good argument for making Herat the capital of the empire (it was Shah Rukh's main residence), but there is just as good an argument for Samarkand. Having an independent Herat state for the 50 years from Shah Rukh's death to the Uzbek conquest in the early 1500s may be historically correct, but would it be worth the work that would have to be put into it?

Persia's formation is indeed historically inaccurate, but trust me, it is better by far now that the alternatives that occured early in beta testing. After trying various proposals, the way it is now was just about the only way to consistently get a decent Persia into existence without letting the Timruds run wild everywhere in the second half of the 15th century. The best scenario would be to get the Aq Koyunlu to move east and let Persia form from them, but they don't seem to want to move in their historic manner...

The problem with the Uzbeks is that Bukhara and Samarkand provinces aren't national provinces for them. This needs to be changed so that they will be likely to move south more often. I will bring this up in the beta forum - I don't know why I didn't notice it before...

In game, the Kazakhs in 1419 reresent the remanants of the old White Horde, which was still in existence at the time and later developed into the Kazakh Horde (The Kazakh rulers in the game from this period are actually the Khans of the White Horde). The Uzbeks were just a branch of the White Horde, but had a semi-separate existence at this point. Later there was a nasty fight over the leadership of the White Horde, and the Uzbeks split of definitively; the remainder of the White Horde became the Kazakhs. This history could easily be modeled through events...

I tried to persuade Greven and others at Paradox that we should have Khwarizm/Khiva in the game (there was a semi-autonimous Khwarizm state for most of the 15th century, then a brief period of Uzbek occupation before independence again as the Khanate of Khiva, so the nation could be in from the beginning of the game), but by that point there was too little time and too much to do to get them in. However, several other nations from the list that I submitted did get into the game, so it wasn't a complete loss... :)
 
Demetrios,

is there any way to change the Uzbek avatar and flag to a more historic one? I don't mean to be mean :D , but why the 1991 flag was chosen is beyond me...


The same goes about Khiva - I mean, how much work would that be? Flag and avatar?

I'm trying to change the formation of Persia anyway, mostly carving up Timurids through revolts and defecting provinces. I'll see if that's gonna work.

And Kaliphate should definitely go!!
 
I have a suggestion about the Kaliphate if it is eliminated from the GC.

What about doing possible to any SUNNI country that conquer the province of Iraq (Bagdad) to claim the title of Caliph with the following options:

A) Accept the title of Caliph, change the country's name to "The Kaliphate" and move the capital to Bagdad

B) Accept the title of Caliph, change the country's name to "The Kaliphate" but don't move the capital city

C) Accept the title of Caliph, move the capital city to Bagdad but not change the country's name to "The Kaliphate".

D) Reject the title of Caliph, don't create "The Kaliphate" and don't move the capiital city.


Any thoughts about this suggestion?
 
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more than bagdad, I suppose the event must be triggered to the country wich have own and control of Meka (province wich has Meka and Medina) and Jerusalem, the three holy cities. Bagdah, specially after mongol destruction, is not more a important region and lives a decadency of irrigated fields that, in the past, support a large population...
Remember that dispite the broken of the khaliphate - ottoman claims never tottally recognized - the title of guardian of holy places was ever important, because who controls them control the pilgrimage (hajj)...
 
Well the Timurids had so many capitals for various members of the family that to represent them all would take some doing! I agree that there is a good argument for making Herat the capital of the empire (it was Shah Rukh's main residence), but there is just as good an argument for Samarkand. Having an independent Herat state for the 50 years from Shah Rukh's death to the Uzbek conquest in the early 1500s may be historically correct, but would it be worth the work that would have to be put into it?
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Well the way we had discussed it, was to have the capital start in Herat, but move after his death to Samarkand and then perhaps make herat a possible revolter after that.
 
Originally posted by Crook
Demetrios,

is there any way to change the Uzbek avatar and flag to a more historic one? I don't mean to be mean :D , but why the 1991 flag was chosen is beyond me...


The same goes about Khiva - I mean, how much work would that be? Flag and avatar?

I'm trying to change the formation of Persia anyway, mostly carving up Timurids through revolts and defecting provinces. I'll see if that's gonna work.

And Kaliphate should definitely go!!
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I don't know why, but getting Paradox to change avatars is like trying to pull teeth. They really don't like doing it, so there must be more work there than we think. The same with creating a new country - tag and avatar creation seems to be the problem there...

As I've said before, I just look at the Kaliphate and think "Qara Koyunlu - Baghdad Branch". Hmmm, maybe I (and the rest of us) should go into the countries.csv file and change the name officially. When I got my belated entry into the beta team, I tried to persuade them to get rid of the Kaliphate except as a revolter, but a certain individual was very stubborn in his defence of it, so I just gave up after awhile.
 
uzbeq culture

Uzbeq was a high culture language, wich produce a literature and mix a lot of arabic and persian elements. Primary language of uzbeq domains was the persian, wich produce a different culture from others mongols and turkish culture, but at time of khwarizm dinasties (about XII and XIII, contemporary to crusades) they produce a High culture language. Event the turkish culture was, in a larger part, a derivation of Uzbeq, since when the uzbeq was invaded by mongols some hordes go to Middle East and they are the basis of the turk principalities of Anatolia.
About Khazaqz, I suppose they do not have strong diferences with the mongol culture, but not so much similarities with the Uzbeqs, either physically
 
Uzbeks were definitely mongols. When they got down south and decided to settle there and mix with local population, they became Uzbeks. I'm planning to write an event for that, and they will definitely start as mongols. Kazaks were a different branch of Uzbeks, which split from them in mid-1400s and refused to settle, but rather remained nomadic.
 
Well for Herat, are we going to move the capital there for the first 50 or so years and then have an event to move it to Samarkand? I'd perfer that as its more historical and Herat would only be able to revolt after that.

Anyway Iraq and Qara Koyonshu (i prob spelled it wrong) should be vassals or revolters under the Tims until the movement of the capital...adter that there could be some events to break them away.
 
Samarkand now gets a fine arts academy in the Ulugh Beg's Observitory event...

I agree that Khiva should definitely be in!
 
What province #s for each...and as for Herat how long should it last because i want to use it and Quandahar for a new nation for my remake of the Afghan event...

Hmm well i redid the Afghan event (stupid me i had the wrong person), but it seems kinda awkward the way i did it, espically as sleepleader doesn't work. If you want, I can post everything and see if you think it warrants the creation of a new country...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
Samarkand now gets a fine arts academy in the Ulugh Beg's Observitory event...
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Ummm.no i meant at the begginning of the game, january 1st 1419...
 
Well its been set down to 2% now i think in the latest patch...if nothing else we could make an event to destroy it if you think it needs to be destroyed.

If you can describe the flags or point them out i can do them.

Herat should be just Herat. They should last from 1449 until 1507 and then have that option.
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don't understand that part.
 
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