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paradox anti-drm? not from my experience.

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this is my first post i know but hey well all start somewhere. anyways i found this article and was wondering if someone could enlighten me.
if i'm not mistaken, steam is one of those DRMs that the CEO of paradox is talking about. and the games i've bought from these guys are indeed steam protected.
i was looking forward to buying impire from these guys for months but i've recently turned away from steam. they're unsupportive, don't allow free speach in their forums... and their flawed software keeps hanging even crashing and i've a beast of a computer i'd say. enough toting. read this article (had to type it out because the site doesn't allow copy and paste!)


PARADOX VOICES OFF ON DRM USELESSNESS

another publisher has joined the anti-drm ranks. paradox interactive - who can be found among the companies who'll be offering their wares on EA's origin service - says the anti - piracy method doesn't make sense, is a hassle for the legitimate customer and creates work for the company deploying it.

"i'm so suprised that people still use DRM, we haven't done that for seven or eight years, and the reason is that it doesn't make sense." CEO fred wester told gamespy.

"no one should have to purchase a product that they're unable to install because of the DRM. people who purchase the game should have just as easy a time as those who pirate the game, otherwise it's a negative incentive to buy a legal copy"
"i see no reasonable explanation for why people keep on adding it" he added and singled out ubisofts highly controversial always connected approach. "especially the kind where you have to be online all the time, like ubisoft. i think that's to me, that's 2003"

wester all finds it a 'waste of money' saying it will only keep the company protected for only a few days but creates a lot of techical support and it will not increase sales.

"and i know this for a fact because we tried it eight years ago and it never worked for us"
http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2012/01/25/paradox-voices-off-on-drms-uselessness/

Me: as i said before, isn't steam a drm? you are explicitly required to be on the internet even when physically buying a game that needs it when you first try and play it. is that not exactly what this guy's on about? and people are always pirating and cracking steam games. it doesn't stop anyone. to me, no DRM is what gog.com does, no DRM is what witcher 2 is even.
 
Well Paradox publishes many games that run only on Steam, but it's internally developed titles, like EU3, CK2, EUR, HOI3, can all be purchased, installed, and played without Steam.

I can't really fault them for publishing other games, but I won't buy the Steam-only ones.
 
No, Steam is not DRM . Steam allows games to incorporate DRM, as they did for instance with EU3 up to the release of DW (5.0). But with the 5.1 patch this DRM was removed and the game is identical whether you buy it from Steam or anywhere else. The same is true of CK2, you can run it without the Steam client - you only need that to install. The Steam client is just a client, it does not automatically enforce DRM on all content obtained through it.

DRM = Digital Rights Management ... no current Paradox Design Studio game incorporates that at all. I can't speak for non-PDS games that PI publish, I don't know them all well enough.
 
micky111 said:
...
if i'm not mistaken, steam is one of those DRMs that the CEO of paradox is talking about. and the games i've bought from these guys are indeed steam protected.
i was looking forward to buying impire from these guys for months but i've recently turned away from steam. they're unsupportive, don't allow free speach in their forums... and their flawed software keeps hanging even crashing and i've a beast of a computer i'd say.
...
Me: as i said before, isn't steam a drm? you are explicitly required to be on the internet even when physically buying a game that needs it when you first try and play it. is that not exactly what this guy's on about? and people are always pirating and cracking steam games. it doesn't stop anyone. to me, no DRM is what gog.com does, no DRM is what witcher 2 is even.
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Firstly free speech is a contract between US government and the people who live there, what companies or individuals do in the spaces they provide is in no way covered by it.

Secondly, Steam as paradox uses it is no DRM. You can play most Paradox games offline, and without starting up Steam even if you bought it there. However, a few do use Steam facilities and might not run without it, but that is mostly because fundamental parts of the game rely on those facilities. The problem with the latter ones is that they would not exist without steam (to expensive to develop some things independently and still make a profit)
 
AndrewT said:
No, Steam is not DRM . Steam allows games to incorporate DRM, as they did for instance with EU3 up to the release of DW (5.0). But with the 5.1 patch this DRM was removed and the game is identical whether you buy it from Steam or anywhere else. The same is true of CK2, you can run it without the Steam client - you only need that to install. The Steam client is just a client, it does not automatically enforce DRM on all content obtained through it.

DRM = Digital Rights Management ... no current Paradox Design Studio game incorporates that at all. I can't speak for non-PDS games that PI publish, I don't know them all well enough.
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I believe micky's complain lies with installing 3rd party software in order to install the game.

This is why I prefer GamersGate over Steam, GG has moved away from installing applications on your computer and moved to a much less invasive method of storing and installing your games. Unfortunately, I now need to be careful what I buy from GG, since it now sells games that require Steamworks be installed before they can be played.
 
micky111 said:
then why am i obligated to subscribe to their client without choice in the matter, isn't that being given the digital rights to play the game? it is drm.
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As I said, only to install the game, not to play it - having installed the game you can copy it elsewhere and uninstall the Steam client if you like. It's no different than GamersGate requiring you to create an ID on their website and log in with it in order to install the game.

EU2 had DRM (copy protection) right on the CD, Paradox removed that with patch 1.09. With EU3 only the Steam version had DRM up to 5.0, then that was removed too.

DRM means "modifying the game so as to prevent certain actions by the user", such as copying, running it on more than one machine at once, running it offline etc. No PDS game does any of those things on Steam, therefore they HAVE lived up to Frederik's words.
 
AndrewT said:
Fine, but that is not remotely DRM.
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Well I guess it would make the game harder to pirate, since you'd need to have a Steam account set up to get the game properly installed.

I was agreeing with you though, Paradox's internally developed games don't even require Steam and can be bought in non-Steam versions. Those are the ones I buy. :)
 
TheLoneGunman said:
Well I guess it would make the game harder to pirate, since you'd need to have a Steam account set up to get the game properly installed.
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The same is true of buying a game from GG.

I was agreeing with you though, Paradox's internally developed games don't even require Steam and can be bought in non-Steam versions. Those are the ones I buy. :)
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Not with EU4, which will be Steam only - CK2's GG sales were so tiny it's just no worthwhile supporting a second version with extra features (ie the in-game store).
 
AndrewT said:
Not with EU4, which will be Steam only - CK2's GG sales were so tiny it's just no worthwhile supporting a second version with extra features (ie the in-game store).
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EU4 is going to be Steam only?!

:(

Edit: I should really browse the EU4 forum more often...
 
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micky111 said:
well 'frederik's words' should not be so vague in that regard. it should be explained that ONLY paradox's inside games are free of DRM which is the minority of what they 'publish' is it not?
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I don't know whether PDS games are or are not a minority of Paradox's overall sales. But they have no control over whether the game designer and Steam implement DRM on games Paradox didn't write ...

TheLoneGunman said:
EU4 is going to be Steam only?!

:(
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Johan has explicitly said so, yes. PDS were strongly encouraged by forumites to make a non-Steam version of CK2 available, but it was a waste of time and money - the sales just are not there, showing that the campaigners for this were in fact a loud but tiny fraction of their customer base.
 
AndrewT said:
Johan has explicitly said so, yes. PDS were strongly encouraged by forumites to make a non-Steam version of CK2 available, but it was a waste of time and money - the sales just are not there, showing that the campaigners for this were in fact a loud but tiny fraction of their customer base.
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Well that stinks. I was really looking forward to playing EU4.
 
AndrewT said:
Why? You want them to waste more money on an unrewarding market segment?
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This thread wasn't about my opinions on Steam or how rewarding it is for every gamemaker and their mother to jump on the Steamworks bandwagon.

But if you must ask, Steam has kept me from buying a number of games, most notably from the Total War series, the Elderscrolls series, the latest Fallouts, and now it appears EU4. I simply don't want that application installed on my computer, I had some negative experiences with it and I think it is monopolizing the gaming industry.
 
TheLoneGunman said:
Steam has kept me from buying a number of games, most notably from the Total War series, the Elderscrolls series, the latest Fallouts, and now it appears EU4. I simply don't want that application installed on my computer, I had some negative experiences with it and I think it is monopolizing the gaming industry.
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+1
 
AndrewT said:
Fine, but that is not remotely DRM.
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Sure it is, it's an external gateway program that checks your digital rights prior to installation (as there's no necessity for an external vendor download app as an integral part of digital delivery, see GOG for example where the only external app is a genuine 3rd party browser and there is no check at all prior to installation) and if you happened to call the software "Tages" "Origin" "SecuROM" or whatever it'd be DRM, it's only really Steam that isn't considered DRM for that behaviour because fans tend to get... upset at people using 'nasty' words about it.

It's irrelevant anyway, steamworks integration means the client will be required to run EUIV anyway.
 
Steam is still DRM, same as Gamers Gate since you have to be online to install the game. And it look like Paradox will utilize Steamworks feature in their upcoming titles, so Steam (the client) set to be a fixed requirement.
 
Steam is not DRM.

DRM either
- Limits the number of installations
- Requires for you to be online to play the game
- Prevents you from using 3rd party software that modify the executable when it's running (like trainers)

EU4 will require none of these.
 
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