Paulus HAD to take Stalingrad (he couldn't bypass it)

[Riekopo]

It has been argued that Paulus should have bypassed Stalingrad, block the Volga to the south of the city, then ride off to Astrakhan. However, the evidence weights heavily against this. In this video, we build upon our discussions from last week ( Battlestorm Stalingrad S4/E12 https://youtu.be/V87miKech6I ) and, using YOUR amazing comments, we discuss the logistical situation, the alternative tactics and strategies that the 6th Army could have taken during the Stalingrad campaign, and see if there was any alternative to Paulus going into the city of Stalingrad. Overall, it appears that Paulus HAD to take Stalingrad. But if you disagree, let me know!

 

[Herbert West]

Wait, are you TIK?

 

[Kovax]

One of the books I read a couple of decades back suggested that Paulus had the ability and possible intention to cut off Stalingrad first, THEN taken the city, but orders were changed and that quickly became impractical or impossible. By NOT isolating the city first, it was left open to reinforcement across the Volga. Either way, the city could not be left in the way of the German supply route, as the rail routes beyond all passed through the city.

 

[Riekopo]

Wait, are you TIK?

No

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Stalingrad, as mentioned, is the logistical core of the rail infrastructure though the area.

Hitler's gamble to detach Manstein to seize the oil prior to taking the city should be rethought, and yes I am aware of Hitler's view on this matter that the generals were stupid and oil was everything. When it all collapses, Manstein's retreat, returning to German lines with his army largely intact, was one of the greatest feats of the war.

 

[Director]

Germany really had the troops and fuel to either take Stalingrad or push to the Caucasus oil fields. In trying to do both, and thereby having resources to do neither, they 'fell between two stools' and lost in both.

Little known fact, but the Axis lost more troops in the surrender of Tunisia than at Stalingrad. Yet the former is passed over and the latter is hailed as the great turning point of the War in the East... very curious.

 

[bz249]

Germany really had the troops and fuel to either take Stalingrad or push to the Caucasus oil fields. In trying to do both, and thereby having resources to do neither, they 'fell between two stools' and lost in both.

Little known fact, but the Axis lost more troops in the surrender of Tunisia than at Stalingrad. Yet the former is passed over and the latter is hailed as the great turning point of the War in the East... very curious.

I guess the largest Axis surrender is 8.05.1945... but at least it is celebrated. ;-)

 

[WhiteKnight77]

He made some very good points, but one has to remember that the German Army was not set up for more than tactical success. Hit fast and overwhelm your opponents for a quick victory. They expected the Red Army to be easily rolled over, but that was not the case. Add the distances involved with the war in The East and you have even bigger issues such as supplying said army. A seige of Stalingrad would have been better and would have allowed for better movement of units to defend the seige, but Hitler's idiocy prevented that due to him wanting to wipe Stalingrad off the map (much like Leningrad, though they did lay seige there).

Oil was the big impetus for war to the Caucasus to begin with. Not blocking Stalingrad would have allowed a large flank needing to be defended and we see what happened with the encirclement of the Sixth Army there. The Italians and Romanians were not up to the task. Hoth would have been cut off himself. I wonder if Hitler had just given a general order as to his intent and wants and let his generals determine the path they took would have led to a different outcome in The East.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

He made some very good points, but one has to remember that the German Army was not set up for more than tactical success. Hit fast and overwhelm your opponents for a quick victory. They expected the Red Army to be easily rolled over, but that was not the case. Add the distances involved with the war in The East and you have even bigger issues such as supplying said army. A seige of Stalingrad would have been better and would have allowed for better movement of units to defend the seige, but Hitler's idiocy prevented that due to him wanting to wipe Stalingrad off the map (much like Leningrad, though they did lay seige there).

Oil was the big impetus for war to the Caucasus to begin with. Not blocking Stalingrad would have allowed a large flank needing to be defended and we see what happened with the encirclement of the Sixth Army there. The Italians and Romanians were not up to the task. Hoth would have been cut off himself. I wonder if Hitler had just given a general order as to his intent and wants and let his generals determine the path they took would have led to a different outcome in The East.

Yes, Hitler giving the Prussian Generals control of the War in general, and the War in the East in particular, would have yeilded far different results.

But who says Hitler was fighting the same war the Werhmacht was?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Little known fact, but the Axis lost more troops in the surrender of Tunisia than at Stalingrad. Yet the former is passed over and the latter is hailed as the great turning point of the War in the East... very curious.

The German army at Stalingrad was the finest available with the best equipment, it was the backbone of army Group South.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The German army at Stalingrad was the finest available with the best equipment, it was the backbone of army Group South.

I'll up the ante.

The assault of the highly trained German infantry, engineers, and assault weapons on Stalingrad's peasant defense was the primary selling point of Avalon Hill's Advanced Squad Leader and the PLETHORA of wargaming titles that have followed in its wake. Every assault team in the world today was given a crash course in how to assault a multi-story building by holding the stairways, racing to the top at all costs, and working top down with SMGs, demo packs and flame throwers.

Legendary. Homeric.

it might even make a good movie or two.

 

[WhiteKnight77]

Yes, Hitler giving the Prussian Generals control of the War in general, and the War in the East in particular, would have yeilded far different results.

But who says Hitler was fighting the same war the Werhmacht was?

I didn't. Hitler really wasn't as great as he thought he was. He always thought of the war as an economic war and wasn't really interested in chopping the head off the Soviet giant. He was not one who thought in strategic goals, just tactical goals and in essence, hoped to achieve a strategic end.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I didn't. Hitler really wasn't as great as he thought he was. He always thought of the war as an economic war and wasn't really interested in chopping the head off the Soviet giant. He was not one who thought in strategic goals, just tactical goals and in essence, hoped to achieve a strategic end.

You are 100% correct assuming WWII is a diplomatic/industrial/military campaign, at which point Hitler is little more than a charismatic bungler mishandling a world class team of horses.

Unfortunately, the smoke rising from the Death Camps form shadows that tell of more esoteric forms of Grand Strategy.

 

[WhiteKnight77]

You are 100% correct assuming WWII is a diplomatic/industrial/military campaign, at which point Hitler is little more than a charismatic bungler mishandling a world class team of horses.

Unfortunately, the smoke rising from the Death Camps form shadows that tell of more esoteric forms of Grand Strategy.

To him, getting rid of the Jews and other unwanteds, was economic. When you think about it, lebensraum was economic. The need for more land to grown more food as well as use resourses is all economic.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

To him, getting rid of the Jews and other unwanteds, was economic. When you think about it, lebensraum was economic. The need for more land to grown more food as well as use resourses is all economic.

If you want to discuss this further, open a thread or pm me. My thoughts in this area are well known, and I don't want to sidetrack Paulus and Zhukov.

 

[Easy-Kill]

To him, getting rid of the Jews and other unwanteds, was economic. When you think about it, lebensraum was economic. The need for more land to grown more food as well as use resourses is all economic.

No. Hitler's motivation for murdering ethnic groups was motivated by the racial thinking around the superiority of the Germanic people and the desire to exterminate certain ethnic groups. That there are still people in the world who would so openly deny this is a concerning prospect.

 

[Herbert West]

The very fact that the Nazis managed to alienate and then exterminate the demographics they were dependent upon for food production in the new Lebensraum (namely ukraininans and to a lesser extent belorussians) shows that economic thinking was not at the forefront. An economically minded Nazi Germany would have left the Ukrainian peasantry in peace and reaped a lot more wheat than they did by indiscriminate extortion and killing.

 

[bz249]

The very fact that the Nazis managed to alienate and then exterminate the demographics they were dependent upon for food production in the new Lebensraum (namely ukraininans and to a lesser extent belorussians) shows that economic thinking was not at the forefront. An economically minded Nazi Germany would have left the Ukrainian peasantry in peace and reaped a lot more wheat than they did by indiscriminate extortion and killing.

By which means would they have achieved it? Lending them oil for their tractors or at least horses from the Wehrmacht stock?

 

[Herbert West]

By which means would they have achieved it? Lending them oil for their tractors or at least horses from the Wehrmacht stock?

That is not what I implied. Simply letting the Ukrainian peasantry farm and taking less than Stalin did ten years ago would have been sufficient. Indeed, in the beginning, the Ukrainians were relatively positive about the whole exchange, and could have provided the same manpower and supplies in late 43 as they did in late 41, were it not for sterotypical Nazi overzealousness.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

The White Russian population was also rather found of the Wehrmacht at first. This quickly changed when the Wehrmacht left and the Reichskommissare showed up.