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I'm worried that if 2.6 does not mitigate the performance issues, the game's future may be at risk.
Of course it wouldn't.
I mean, really - are we supposing that it's supposed to be fixable by some little time of developer work? Stellaris is damned heavy (very) game, script-heavy at first place, with A LOT of variables which should be tracked in real-time, not to mention graphical issues. It is possible, I think, to streamline all this calculation, but if we want simulation be precise, they should be done, and they should be done in real-time. And any new feature adds insult to injury; and I don't think game in current state doesn't need new features.
And, as it's art (engineering art, but art!), nobody can say - yes, we're starting developer cycle when we're planning to make a miracle and somehow fix everything in one cycle; we created such task in Jira, so our developers would necessary finish it in Monday. "Just sorry nobody supposed to think about it before." Sorry for kind of sarcasm, but I never actually got demanding "declare it to be fixed". Of course, if they know a way to fix it, they would fix it. Performance checks and optimization is the default part of any decent development cycle.

like. no one is saying "we need to have it fixed".
I'm not sure it needs to be spoken. Optimized performance without actual quality drop is always good.
Still, they do say it.

o, when people say things like 'performance is hella bad' and theres no counter line..
Yes, there is no counter line. I mean, it isn't existed. Performance for this people is hella bad.
 
Performance has been an issue since 1.0. At this point, I don't think even they know what is causing it in Stellaris but not in their other games.

I honestly agree. A lot have happened the last few months. The mobile game that was announced and then recalled. We have heard very little about it and why it was made. It is so far from what the fanbase want. At first I thought it was maybe a tongue in check joke. Developers not responding to the devdiary any longer. It isjust like all the dialog have disappeared and instead we are only getting talked to.

There's nothing to say: they hired a mobile game developer to make a Mobile Game inspired by Stellaris, that Developer proved to be your average mobile developer who doesn't understand the meaning of word "Copyright" (PDS is not the first company to learn the lesson in trusting Mobile Game Developers), and now they need to either completely scrap it or remake it (with a different developer) to avoid potential legal issues.
 
They did Ancient relics after that

They did Lithoids after that

They are working on Federations

AND THEY DO A LOT OF COMMUNICATION, but they do not communicate about the performance issues
I can't even emphasis how infinitely simpler it's to make Ancient Relics, even Federation and ESPECIALLY Lithoids (which are, actually, kind of expanded good mod) then to solve a problem "ok, on thousands pops in game, which of them have some dynamic stats, influencing each other, with dozens of other variables, desktop setup of the mortal man is sluttering".
What can they say, actually? They knows how they're going to make lithoids, relics or federation (going to, not offering to discuss; ideas they're not going to make isn't on our tables usually, and that's normal). How can they do a lot of communication about the problem they didn't have a solution (yet or ever, I don't know)?

CK2 had the same problem for a long time and the devs promised to solve it and they solved it
Yup. Do you know how? They just cull every minor character which "isn't important" (and it gave birth to memes like "Tamerlan isn't important", because he sometimes hadn't "special" flag). So, less calculations per second.
Also, CK2 scripts are simpler.

HOI4 also has a end game problem, but the devs there are always open, what the problems are and how next patch will bring an increase in performance
Oh! Can somebody tell HoI4 team that they're always open about which performance issue they would fix in next parch, and how exactly?
They're telling (sometimes): hey, we localised one issue that make game lag, and we're going to improve it, so, look on our great increased performance charts!
 
I like the "For instance". Any dev that tries to comment on such a thing would be bombarded with 200 replies. And it would be just as alienating if they do not reply to each and every one of them...
Sounds like you want to think the worst of fans. “Thank you, that’s helpful, we’ll see what we can do to make job calculation more rational” would do the business nicely. This issue isn’t a simple “things are bad” compliant, this is someone going out of their way to provide constructive feedback!

Or this issue. This seems to always happen, so it’s a consistent mid-scale bug. Developers seemingly ignore it.
 
Because they did not introduce a new pop system without testing it ;)
Actually, no. Because Stellaris engine is more advanced. Stellaris engine was more complex even on release.
Still, surely, new pop system in (my honest opinion) infinitely better, but, surely, heavier on processor.

Or this issue. This seems to always happen, so it’s a consistent mid-scale bug. Developers seemingly ignore it.
I haven't it in my last game. Should I check it right now?
 
Actually, no. Because Stellaris engine is more advanced. Stellaris engine was more complex even on release.
Still, surely, new pop system in (my honest opinion) infinitely better, but, surely, heavier on processor.


I haven't it in my last game. Should I check it right now?
I think this happens if you have purge policy allowed. Still, other people had the issue and it always happened in the save.
 
But they did do this - in a DD even. And now they repeated it on twitter... So, what do you really want? A promise of when it will be solved? They don't know - they haven't figured it out yet.


I like the "For instance". Any dev that tries to comment on such a thing would be bombarded with 200 replies. And it would be just as alienating if they do not reply to each and every one of them...

It'd be too much work so they just should do nothing? It doesn't have to be the devs, they have PR people right? Also, which Dev Diary was this? Can't have been recent - there isn't anything recent on Twitter either. Sounds like maybe everyone who's saying they're being silent has a point. What I want is communication about why Ancient Relics, and Lithoids, released with their own problems, while the problems from Megacorp continue to roll forward, and why they're now only marketting their new expansion - with the problems just piling up and up and up and up.
 
It'd be too much work so they just should do nothing? It doesn't have to be the devs, they have PR people right? Also, which Dev Diary was this? Can't have been recent - there isn't anything recent on Twitter either. Sounds like maybe everyone who's saying they're being silent has a point. What I want is communication about why Ancient Relics, and Lithoids, released with their own problems, while the problems from Megacorp continue to roll forward, and why they're now only marketting their new expansion - with the problems just piling up and up and up and up.

Ancient Relics and Lithoids don’t have many problems, since they are quite light additions, but it’s still a bit embarrassing that there are any at all.
 
If anyone hasn't watched it yet, it's worth sitting through the PDX talk with John Wordsworth (Technical Director) and Mark Dickie (Engine Team Lead), it covers a lot of PDS history, the current situation and covers the anatomy of a frame, what each thread contains, engine dev team sizes and much more.

https://twitter.com/JohnWordsworth/status/1194910120506998784

As the person who discovered that it is the vacant jobs that cause the performance drop, I can give a bit more of an insight given the presentation and the slides given through twitter.
Disclaimer: I am a software developer and do this for a living (Working on games, not just web or back end development that is). However anything I say is to be taken with a grain of salt and as an approximation to what's going on as I could still be wrong. Only by looking at the actual code and trying tests can anyone draw conclusions, What follows is simplified:

https://t.co/Ijk4mKh3bd

So, with that out of the way the important slide is slide number 36. Right in the middle of that 16ms span the engine does "Game updates/Process Commands" and it does so in a multithreaded manner as well. So why don't we experience that and instead the game crawls to a halt with low CPU utilization?

Answer: As you can see, each thread deals with a seperate game subsystem. Checking for the pops is part of a single task that takes a single "slot" if you like others deal with ships, gates, migration and so on. These taks have different performance profiles, based on what memory and what other subsystems they touch, so it's impossible to expect them all to finish at the same time. The whole system was designed with a specific "workload budget" in mind, even before v1.0 was shipped. Back then we had the tiles system and economy.

Now here comes the new economy update and throws that budget out of whack. Once population in the galaxy sprawls, the thread responsible for the economy, needs more time to finish. Sure, it splits planets and only does a subset of it's work on each frame, postponing work for the next frame and so on, going through all colonies every month and doing a myriad other things related to the economy as well. It works perfectly - otherwise you wouldn't be able to play, and the resulting data changes the "delta" if you whish, must be sent through the multiplayer layer on each tick (every 16ms or so) to keep all the game clients in sync - this is also done for job placements, because it affects the reality on the colonies and the resulting resources - in single player games this does not happen, but in general it's not causing the slow down - I'm just mentioning this here because it's important.

As that wokload increases with more pops, that specific task completion time dominates all work and all other tasks in all other threads wait for it to finish, essentially making the game "single threaded". Also, as the AI or player introduces more subspecies through xeno compatibility or otherwise, that task performance slows down, since it has to access the subspecies data and its single cache becomes overloaded, swapping lines repeatedly (cache thrashing) increasing memory access time for most operations. This explains some of the graphs that people produced in the previous performance exploration discussions. You have 1 thread overloaded while most other are asleep so you get about 12.5% utilization on an 8 threaded CPU.

UI slowdown is completely seperate, since UI data must be populated from the game state *each* time you open any pannel or window. (eg pop resettlement window)
FPS issues are somewhat irrelevant, as a seperate thread was always responsible for doing the OpenGL/DirectX stuff. Only thread resource starvation can explain issues here with an unpaused game and remember that modern drivers and graphics stacks are multithreaded as well and so they are sensitive to your CPU total load.

Yes, the engine is multithreaded, but the workload distribution is not balanced. What people really want to happen when they say "make the game engine multithreaded", is to make a change where all cores can be used to proccess the economy - or *any* other task whose computational workload increases as population count (or any entity count) increases. This means splitting the workset into seperate partitions and have each core completing that work in parallel. For example, divide all colonies by the number of cores and have each CPU core calculate though each set. This requires significant re-engineering effort and it won't happen - I will be extremely surprised if it happens. But expect something like that in Stellaris 2 under Clausewitz 2 or such, because the industry is going towards budget 16 core/ 32 thread CPUs.

And don't forget multiplayer where we have another upper cap limit: as you reach a specific large number of pops and you manage to calculate them in parallel as suggested, you may get many pop reshufling changes per second and the game state delta (all the changes that must be sent to other clients) can reach into the megabytes per second, clogging your internet connection upload capacity and bringing everything to a halt regardless of CPU,GPU or anything else.

The only reasonable quick and cheap solution is either optimization of the workload or reduction of the data set. The mod "Stellaris Immortal" is an attempt towards reduction, while mods that mess with job check scheduling (or de-scheduling) is an attempt towards optimization, as is having no vacant jobs which is kind of both.
 
The mod "Stellaris Immortal" is an attempt towards reduction, while mods that mess with job check scheduling (or de-scheduling) is an attempt towards optimization
Actually, Stellaris Immortal does *both*. I have set up prerequisites to eliminate as many pops as possible from the job checks as early as possible, while still preserving the behavior of pops working their way into more optimal job positions over time :)
 
Actually, Stellaris Immortal does *both*. I have set up prerequisites to eliminate as many pops as possible from the job checks as early as possible, while still preserving the behavior of pops working their way into more optimal job positions over time :)

That's even better! Please PM me once you release Gestalts.
 
Of course it wouldn't.
I mean, really - are we supposing that it's supposed to be fixable by some little time of developer work? Stellaris is damned heavy (very) game, script-heavy at first place, with A LOT of variables which should be tracked in real-time, not to mention graphical issues. It is possible, I think, to streamline all this calculation, but if we want simulation be precise, they should be done, and they should be done in real-time. And any new feature adds insult to injury; and I don't think game in current state doesn't need new features.
And, as it's art (engineering art, but art!), nobody can say - yes, we're starting developer cycle when we're planning to make a miracle and somehow fix everything in one cycle; we created such task in Jira, so our developers would necessary finish it in Monday. "Just sorry nobody supposed to think about it before." Sorry for kind of sarcasm, but I never actually got demanding "declare it to be fixed". Of course, if they know a way to fix it, they would fix it. Performance checks and optimization is the default part of any decent development cycle.
I'm sorry I didn't make the sentence clearer. What I meant is that some people are starting to leave the game and stop buying DLCs altogether due to various issues with the game. That could lead to less revenue for PDX, which means that they would have fewer resources to continue development of the game. That's what I am worried about.
 
And this is why people need to stop buying DLC.
Not ready? They're just stringing their customers along at this rate.

Yep, that's what I'm doing - didn't bought Ancient Relics, Corporations nor Lithoids and won't buy until late game lag will be resolved.
I remeber playing 1000 star galaxy late game in Stellaris 1.0 with 3 different FTL types and dynamic borders on my 7+ years old laptop with no problem.
Now I have brand new laptop, yet the game run worse in late game :(.
No, I won't play on smaller galaxies, because they are claustrophobic.

I think the problem is that the Stellaris is like a drug - it was perfect 4X game for me, only ancient Master of Orion 2 could compare with Stellaris.
Seeing Stellaris bad state make us having withdrawal symptoms, as we don't have proper replacement (Endless Space 2 is nice, but too casual for me).
 
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Has anyone noticed improved perf when assigning higher than normal priority to the game via task manager? I have played around with doing so and I think I see an improvement but I also feel as though it might be in my head.
 
Nah. I bought Lithoids, I'll buy Federations. Performance on my crappy laptop is slow, but I've seen people with pretty decent performance and I don't mind waiting until Paradox optimizes stuff on their own timetable (which, likely, will be "after the major diplomacy overhaul so we don't fix things and then break them").
 
Nah. I bought Lithoids, I'll buy Federations. Performance on my crappy laptop is slow, but I've seen people with pretty decent performance and I don't mind waiting until Paradox optimizes stuff on their own timetable (which, likely, will be "after the major diplomacy overhaul so we don't fix things and then break them").

That is assuming that they are not running a fix concurrently with Federations testing. With player testing showing that the lag is being caused by inefficient job checking, you would think they would be working on optimization but I could also see that fix needing a lot of testing to make sure it didn’t break something else.
 
That is assuming that they are not running a fix concurrently with Federations testing. With player testing showing that the lag is being caused by inefficient job checking, you would think they would be working on optimization but I could also see that fix needing a lot of testing to make sure it didn’t break something else.
Paradox are always working on AI improvements and game optimizations, and I'm sure that Federations/Verne will include some. I'm more saying that I wouldn't expect any deep-dive bugfixing periods until the game's underlying mechanics are more stable- and Verne is the last of the planned Big Three Overhauls.
 
Ok, it seems pretty clear from the number of threads that just about everyone has problems with late game performance; even the best PCs seem to grind to a halt. That, and the fact a restart helps (for a bit) shows this is just poor coding.

So here's a suggestion: a general user strike. Let's not buy any more stellaris expansions until they fix it. That way Paradox has to prioritise this issue above new bells and whistles.

This posts feels kind of 6 months late to the party.