Playing as "Courtiers"

[Duke of Bavaria]

Well basically loyalty in CK 1 is all you need to make this work. You could introduce such "loyalty" between all cahracters and call it "relation". Then make it possible to change this "relation" between 2 characters , the money a characger has, traits etc. of any character by another character so effects of events can take place and you have an endless possibility to write great strings of events.
If it it to complicated to have relations between all characters it could also work to have just relations to your liege for a start perhaps. If a county or duchy becomes avail. the Liege should decide to give it to the landless or not guy that has the best relation with him.
I mean with this realtively simple thin you could write great adventures for your character, like he gets a misson from his liege, like say bring a letter to another court. In a string of decisions this mission then takes place like an old pen and paper roleplaying adventure. Given the outcome of the event chain the character then gets or looses some money, traits or better /worse relation to his liege. (with Liege meaning the leader of the court he is at)
Seriously wouldnt that be somethign that would take the game to a whole new level and a dreamland for modders?

And basically all you need is:

-Make the game allow you to play a non land owner

-Make event chains with different decisions possible where one decision lead to another siutaion with new decisions or an end

- Give modders access to those and to mod effects to all traits , relation and all other things that define him. Dont know how it is in CK1 but basically something like: Event effect = character ID 321131 -50 gold 30 LGR (liege relation) trait = stubborn

P.S. That gave me another idea to make it more complicated: Some event chains should only come up for characters with certain traits, prestige , etc. . so that you would need a variety of things a character has to be so an event fires.

 

[Keinwyn]

How about if you as a courtier, when appointed as a marshal etc gained control over that aspect of the AI's country? So as Marshal I would control my liege's armies...

 

[Duke of Bavaria]

Nice idea, but i can see it being a little complicated to implement.

 

[Galle]

It also could cause problems for people playing the game "properly" p) in that they wouldn't be able to command their own army if they appointed a marshal.

Perhaps it could be a sort of automated thing, where the marshal has command but the liege can override him? So if you were the King of England or what have you you could appoint a marshall to handle military matters for you, but if you wanted you could give orders overriding his.

 

[Oriental Despot]

This feature is in some of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms - the best installments of that series. I think VII, VIII, and maybe X have it and it was a huge improvement for those games (they're also grand strategy games.) You could play as a general or minister in the service of a warlord and try and gain influence and prestige to rise higher in the ranks of their court.. scheme with or against rivals, assassinate them, etc.

Playing as a courtier would definitely make for a more challenging game.. the player has less influence over their state of course, so you'd have to adapt to things beyond your control like inept higher ups. Adding the feature would really flesh out the palace intrigue side of the game too, with all the courtiers competing for power. Some more plot hatching, and more opportunities to stick knives in people's backs would really hit the spot.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

It would be a very interesting way to play the game, I expect they could do something along the lines of Governments in exile ala HOI3.

Yep, problem is GiE in HoI3 are awfully boring - you got nothing to do and it's basically "spectator mode".

For "courtier mode" to work, you would need significant effort from the devs to ensure, that player controling the landless character is kept:

1) busy,
2) entertained,
3) when he obtains the land, decent part of his former options vanishes/is automatized, so he won't be overwhelmed by excessive micromanagement.

It would make poor courtier game to just sit and click some option every 5 min. or so, hoping for events to pop up...

 

[Sam L]

This sounds more like pure role play. I don't think that this will work because remember this game is still grand strategy/role play. And I think we want to keep it that way.

It's not about how some minor noble family in a court is living their day to day lives but how the Capets and Plantagenets are running their Kingdoms.

 

[Sam L]

Although I want to see more actions/events around courtiers that are not part of your family.

Sometimes you have these courtiers with mid to low DNA who never gets a job, who never marries, who never does anything of note in their entire lives except that they were born, had an education and dies.

I'm not saying everyone needs to have events happening to them all the time but it would be good to have more events that affect all people.

 

[pirt]

They shouldn't necessarily make it available to start as landless characters. All they need to do to satisfy some demands in this thread is; if you lose your title at one point, you should be able to go on as a simple courtier (in your liege's or maybe in a rival court as an exile) to accumulate some power and plot for an opportunity to get your title back. There may also be a time limit for that. Not in terms of years, but say until the son of the character who held the title ones dies. If the grandson is still landless, the issue is dropped; end of the game.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

All they need to do to satisfy some demands in this thread is; if you lose your title at one point, you should be able to go on as a simple courtier (in your liege's or maybe in a rival court as an exile) to accumulate some power and plot for an opportunity to get your title back.

Doesn't it make game of its own though?

My point is, experience of such option in HoI3 (where you can in fact become exiled) shows, that such option is useless, when not supported by dedicated functionality.

Basically, it's all fun and dandy to have "courtier game" if it's indeed fully fledged game, not some ersatz, like GiE in HoI3. If landless character doesn't have anything to do and just sits and waits for the fortune to change, maybe occasionally clicking some random option that pops up, then what's the point?

Decent courtier game would give player viable, non-random options, like training skills of choice, spending money on equipment/education/connections/bribes, earning money in various ways (possibly via ladder of professions/occupations that would give him sense of direction).

Awful courtier game (comparable to HoI3 GiE) would be just sitting there, watching piety and gold reserves rise (without any means to control them) and waiting for some event to pop up.

 

[pirt]

If landless character doesn't have anything to do and just sits and waits for the fortune to change, maybe occasionally clicking some random option that pops up, then what's the point?

Totally agree. My idea in that regard is providing the governing posts (spymaster, steward) some game play options. Think for instance, being in charge of treasury and depending on your character's skill, secretly peculate some money either to be able to build up a rebel army or get caught and end up at the pole. Or a spymaster's game where you seem to serve your liege but follow your own secret agenda. May require more than events and decisions though; I think its up to the game designers to decide if it's worth it.

 

[Sam L]

They shouldn't necessarily make it available to start as landless characters. All they need to do to satisfy some demands in this thread is; if you lose your title at one point, you should be able to go on as a simple courtier (in your liege's or maybe in a rival court as an exile) to accumulate some power and plot for an opportunity to get your title back. There may also be a time limit for that. Not in terms of years, but say until the son of the character who held the title ones dies. If the grandson is still landless, the issue is dropped; end of the game.

Being exiled to another court could work and under those circumstances (which basically means getting a second chance) but there is absolutely no way you could lose your title and stay in the same court and serve as a courtier.

 

[pirt]

My idea above is not much like a game within a game; it is rather about designing some various accessibility levels for game decisions according to the posts that the characters you control hold. It could similarly work for the landholding players; you make your brother the steward, you have access to all treasury decisions (sliders etc); you put some x guy in your court with a high skill there, most of it is AI controlled. I believe this would add a lot to game depth, as well as making playing with courtiers interesting without adding extra features specific to them.

 

[pirt]

but there is absolutely no way you could lose your title and stay in the same court and serve as a courtier.

What about if it's not lost by war, but your liege just wanted to revoke it you were in no position to say no? Or you were part of a rebellion against him, but then changed sides and helped defeating disloyals, so he revokes the title but pardons you to reward your penitence and lets you stay? I don't know how accurate these are historically, but make sense to me in game terms.

 

[Orinsul]

or if you had your title though your mother and died, that title returns to her brothers son, you continue as your fathers brother who is the martial.
or if the succession passes to your daughters son not your nephew, so you become a member of that court.
Or if the succession if elected not hereditary.
or your country gets invaded by Normans and you end up shipwrecked in scotland, begging for scraps and the kings table and given to marrying your sister off to him in the hope to getting his aid in restoring your throne
or likewise situtations

always in the Things you'd like to see if a sequel ever got made, the ability to continue playing as a courtier as Head of the Dynasty has been chief among my list.

if youre not playing an Individual Count, but head of a Dynasty, things like setting up marriages and commanding the fortunes and prestige of your Family. Those things could occupy you while you waiting for someone in your family to gain land again.

and it'd be fun
and something to avoid, but more important something that would be a great challenge to recover from

 

[ROCKS]

for the people who say it would be boring to just sit there and wait for something lucky to come up, you should know that it doesn't have to be like that. Yes there could be lots of events that help your

character (or not help your character) while you play as a courtier, there could also be personnel options for your character where you can interact with other characters, influence, so on and so forth,

and also job options where if you are a chancellor you have your personnel options but also chancellor specific options etc. This shows that you don't just have to sit there and wait for something lucky

to happen but you have lots of options for your own character. I also like the ranks of like knight baron etc. Maybe if you are a knight you have to fight in wars or go into tourney's for prestige.

Although to become a knight you have to be knighted. If you are a king knighting a character should have positive and negative effects. Like it costs some money, and other things. I like the idea of

being a landless character buttt..... i think if they do put this feature in they should have atleast some of the ideas that i said to make the game as a landless character streamlined and always

something to do/not boring.

 

[Galle]

I have no idea why people are still claiming that playing as a courtier would necessarily consist of sitting back and waiting for events to fire. They are manifestly wrong, I've provided examples of possible interesting gameplay dozens of times, and if they're not going to bother to read the thread I'm not going to bother to correct them.

I've been thinking more about the relationship between generals, marshalls, and lieges with the military, and I think I've struck on an interesting system:

- The commander of an army (who may be a player courtier or the AI) directly controls it.

- The marshall can give orders to armies (except the one commanded by the liege, obviously) that the army's commander will usually carry out. Usually.

- The liege, again, whether AI or not, can do the same thing as the marshall. His orders supersede the marshall's.

This should have the net effect that the game normally plays like CK - you can give all your armies orders and they will carry them out - but the autonomy allows for the AI to demonstrate general personalities. If you order Count Bloodthirsty McGloryhound to guard the rear, don't be surprised when he rushes to join the front at the first possible opportunity instead. It would also allowed for player generals to disobey orders in an attempt to win favor through their daring battle skills.

 

[EvilCartyen]

I think people are probably hung up on the fact that it'd be boring in CK1.

This is a new engine, and a new game, and if you stop to consider the possibilities of CK2 - and not the realities of CK1 - you'll see that playing as a courtier could be extremely entertaining and rewarding.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

I have no idea why people are still claiming that playing as a courtier would necessarily consist of sitting back and waiting for events to fire. They are manifestly wrong, I've provided examples of possible interesting gameplay dozens of times, and if they're not going to bother to read the thread I'm not going to bother to correct them.

Good for you.

Now, if you could keep up with sceptics - what you basically want from Paradox, is for them to make two games, both engaging and fun for the player - one, more or less based on what we had in CK1 and second one, based on your ideas.

While it's not neccessary an issue (on the contrary, I would love to see such medieval roleplaying myself), I'm not exactly sure if devs are really going to follow such line of thinking...

Note, that you have just asked for generals to directly control troops (unless you just mean moving army to the province?). Have you seen such option in any of the Paradox games? You basically request whole new combat system - but such system can't simply involve dice rolls and simplified battles (that is a trademark of every single Paradox game with Clausewitz engine), as that would make "marshalling" very simplistic.

Good example is, again, HoI3 by Paradox, where you can be sort of a courtier without the land - its called Goverment in Exile there. It's basically great idea (like courtier gameplay, mind you) done wrong - you have nothing to do, because devs didn't have time to make dedicated options of gameplay for such mode.

So, courtiers can be much, much more, then just "sitting and waiting for events". But it would require lots of work from devs just to cover this special niche.

 

[Galle]

Yeah, I only meant that the general would be able to order the army to move between provinces. I was talking about semi-autonomous strategic decisions, not some kind of tactical battles.

I fully admit that this would be a considerable undertaking, and that it almost certainly won't be in the base game. But I think it's worth considering for an expansion, at least.