Playtesters Needed

[MattyG]

I can conferm this. Set up a TP in talahassee and got contact with the Cherokee.

Gotten 1560 with the maya, so far I let the Euros have the lessers Antills, but I took all the Greater and most of Columbia, and Panama. Just waiting for the conversion events. Some minor problems I have so far:

- Plague was bad, but could have been alot worse, maybe several events that get worse as time goes on over several years. Also it did not hit any of my colonies that I had set up. Maybe some -1 in the provance IDs to do some random provance would help this. I guess I just think that this should be a really massive event that causes really big problems. Seems the Zap did not get hit that bad either.

- After Zap take Yucatan, shouldn't the provance lose most, or at least some, of its population when it is taken. The mayan event talks about people fleeing, but nothing happens to the yucatan population.

- Incans done yet, they don't seem to have much happening to them.

Hmmm. Interesting thoughtson the smallpox. I felt it was pretty bloody nasty. Everything takes a whollop, and a hard one at that, MP, infra, population, monarch stats, treasury, the lot. In terms of how much it would hammer the Maya in MP or if they are ai run, I think its devestating. Who wouldn't attack them at that point? And they will be easy easy pickings. Troops dead, no MP, stab -3, monarch worthless etc etc etc. I imagine its only in SP - where you have no real enemy! - that its easy to recover from that event. But I could be wrong.

It will be a simple matter of adding a lot of close provinces to the pop hits. If you don't end up owning them, then that part of the event is irrelevant. I did this with the Dichali, IIRK, but didn't go back and do it to the others. Of course, it won't matter for the ai, as they do not colonise until after the small pox plagues have come and gone.

The Yucanatan event needs some changes. There is a loss of 1500 people (the wealthy and attendants ) to Guantanamo. That's about 4% of its size only.

I have done nothing with the Incans. They are essentially a country without leaders, monarchs and events.

I have taken Talahassee, Biloxi, Bayou and the others out of their set up.

The Euros will still be tough. Their tech advantage shoudl give you a run for your money.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[unmerged(33565)]

The reconquest event gives you 2000 art , think thats alittle much.

Oh are, the zap set to furious, cause there is no way to get them to sign peace, I had them up to -30 war score and offered them a great peace that they reject.

Sure the plague event is bad, but really I only know 2 or 3 euro powers at that time and most of them really did not have much power by me, (only 3 or 4 colonies, and thats with me not really trying to toss that many out) so they were not much of a threat. Who else was going to get me, the Zap, my navy was far above theirs, so that it would have been massively difficalt to get to me. Othedr then that, no one. Maybe give them a boast for surviving it. I was also thinking about making it a little worse, but spreading it out so that you can recover alittle between.

I was just thinking that it took several years for the epidemic, in real life, to truely take out the amount it did, so why not do that in the game.

 

[MattyG]

The reconquest event gives you 2000 art , think thats alittle much.

Oh are, the zap set to furious, cause there is no way to get them to sign peace, I had them up to -30 war score and offered them a great peace that they reject.

Sure the plague event is bad, but really I only know 2 or 3 euro powers at that time and most of them really did not have much power by me, (only 3 or 4 colonies, and thats with me not really trying to toss that many out) so they were not much of a threat. Who else was going to get me, the Zap, my navy was far above theirs, so that it would have been massively difficalt to get to me. Othedr then that, no one. Maybe give them a boast for surviving it. I was also thinking about making it a little worse, but spreading it out so that you can recover alittle between.

I was just thinking that it took several years for the epidemic, in real life, to truely take out the amount it did, so why not do that in the game.

Really, 2000 artiller are too many? I originally had it set to 5000.

Joking. That should have been 20. I doubt there would be 2000 pieces of artillery in Europe at the time. Thanks, will make that change.

Zap are set to furious. I guess you feel this is too much, but that was the way the Aztecs were in the real world. They simply did not concede until their warriors were all wiped out, and the Zap have taken over their mantle. I should probably write another ai change for when they chose to be more of a trading nation or for when the Prosperity period comes along. But if you feel strongly that furious is toomuch, it can be ditched.

You are right about the epidemics, of course. A more realistic portrayal will require a lot more events. And once you try the Euros you'll see there are individual events for every Pagan-country provinces in the new world (the terra nulius provinces have a built-in small pox action). That would be a lot of events for me to write. However, I can see th sense in having it done more meticulously for the main minors, Zap, Aztec, Maya and Dichali (and one day Chimu and Inca. I'll add it to the list.

I don't think your game is necessarily typical. The times I have played there were a lot more European colonisers about and I was at war with Brittany (relentlessly) every time the event struck. Good thing it was played by the ai.

 

[Incompetent]

Zap are set to furious.

You do have to be very, very careful about this one, because it completely screws the AI over. It's only really suitable when a) the AI is guaranteed to be fighting feeble enemies who can be crushed or b) you want the AI to be destroyed by war exhaustion. Since the Maya are far from feeble, the Zapotec are not going to be helped by their fury.

AFAIK the Aztecs didn't have much of a 'fight to the last man' tradition in warfare - rather, they were used to pretty light casualties on the battlefield, thanks to primitive weaponry, their history of winning and their desire to take prisoners rather than kill enemies.

Of course, the Aztecs fought extremely tenaciously in the siege of Tenochtitlan of 1520-21, but that's a bit different. Looked at from an Aztec point-of-view, Cortes' invasion was more like a supernatural Apocalypse than a mere war; under these circumstances even the French would be set to 'ferocious'. But this is quite a different scenario to a border scuffle between the Zapotec and Maya in which the Maya are only trying to take their own lands back. In any case, fury seems to be irrelevant in the situation where an AI controls nothing, which is what we're talking about with the destruction of Tenochtitlan.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

I figured out why I did not see alot of euros. I columbus in 1750 (game was winding down) just to see what happened in europe. Burgondy ate all of france, west germany, and parts of iberia. Genoa was taken by Tuscany, sicily was taken by the papal states, and the league was eaten by baveria down to two provances or so. That was why there were so few euros in my area, none of the main colonizers were left. Oh and the golden horde actual servived and took large chunks of land in Russia, Hungury owned east germany, poland, and south to greece, and the Kaliphant was its usally massive self.

I am going to do a zap game just to see how they do next, I will come back to the mayans and try to play as I would if I was in a mulitplayer game, since as of right now they are the only vivable MP nation as I see it.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Game as Brittany. VH/N. Goal to move sliders towards all naval, all narrowminded, all quality

1st turn ally with eire and kalamar, kalamar dows norway
i crush scotland to 1 province. then assist kalamar take over all of norway
lend 100 gold for 1 turn at 10% to kalamar and dump them after they refuse to pay. they were useful to get scotland, but they keep getting into scuffles in the part of the world not interesting to brittany. making kalamar stronger would keep hansa possibly off my back.

make good with burgundy untill division of gaul. Choose the lesser path. cores are nice to have but savoy and burgundy are tough nut to crack.
ally strategically to take out the coast for myself, once normandy is inherited burgundy is allied and eire is taken down to 1 province. on their island.

it helps to capture eire rudders. wastes a lot of ships though. after trying to capture rudders while loosing 20 warships iceland rebelled. i quickly allied them and traded some 400 gold for the maps they inherited from eire. eire recaptured iceland after that. of well a rock int he middle of nowhere.

around columbus times i get first explorer and first get azores and then bermuda and then find maya and trade maps to them. I figure that 400 gold to get on their good side woudl outft 8 caravels. 8 caravels for their maps seem not too outrageous.

30000 horsemen and 15000 footmen at land tech level 5 make quick work of zapatecks making them vassals and freeing aztecks to make them vassals too. once conquistadore comes i will move and do same with inca and chimu.

 

[MattyG]

You do have to be very, very careful about this one, because it completely screws the AI over. It's only really suitable when a) the AI is guaranteed to be fighting feeble enemies who can be crushed or b) you want the AI to be destroyed by war exhaustion. Since the Maya are far from feeble, the Zapotec are not going to be helped by their fury.

AFAIK the Aztecs didn't have much of a 'fight to the last man' tradition in warfare - rather, they were used to pretty light casualties on the battlefield, thanks to primitive weaponry, their history of winning and their desire to take prisoners rather than kill enemies.

Of course, the Aztecs fought extremely tenaciously in the siege of Tenochtitlan of 1520-21, but that's a bit different. Looked at from an Aztec point-of-view, Cortes' invasion was more like a supernatural Apocalypse than a mere war; under these circumstances even the French would be set to 'ferocious'. But this is quite a different scenario to a border scuffle between the Zapotec and Maya in which the Maya are only trying to take their own lands back. In any case, fury seems to be irrelevant in the situation where an AI controls nothing, which is what we're talking about with the destruction of Tenochtitlan.

Right. Furious not working the way I thought it would. Furious will be removed.

 

[MattyG]

I figured out why I did not see alot of euros. I columbus in 1750 (game was winding down) just to see what happened in europe. Burgondy ate all of france, west germany, and parts of iberia. Genoa was taken by Tuscany, sicily was taken by the papal states, and the league was eaten by baveria down to two provances or so. That was why there were so few euros in my area, none of the main colonizers were left. Oh and the golden horde actual servived and took large chunks of land in Russia, Hungury owned east germany, poland, and south to greece, and the Kaliphant was its usally massive self.

I am going to do a zap game just to see how they do next, I will come back to the mayans and try to play as I would if I was in a mulitplayer game, since as of right now they are the only vivable MP nation as I see it.

The Zapotec and Aztec are not meant to be viable MP countries. I hoped that the Maya would be interesting in MP, and could acheive good results if the MP environment and 'victory conditions' were appropriate. Likewise Dichali. Interesting, fun, cool story arcs etc etc and maybe fun for MP to in the right environment. And of course, the Maya and Dichali will prove entertaining in SP, and no doubt worthy of a WC attempt.

The main thing for the Maya/Zap/Aztec/Dicahli is to make the Caribbean more intriguing and difficult for the Europeans, which is where most of the MP games will be set. At the moment the whole of the New World is a pointless cake walk.

That said, I can see a really fascinating MP environment based entirely on the Dichali/Zap/Maya/Inca/Chimu. It would need a couple more nations in there. The intrigue and fighting as all countries build toward the inevitable tide of European powetthat will sweep over them.

Finally, of course, there's the alternative history aspect of the Aberration setting. These nations are all where they are because of their alt-histories. Making a Zapotec nation that is as powerful and potential rich as the Maya and Dichali would - for me - be event more of a stretch.

 

[MattyG]

Game as Brittany. VH/N. Goal to move sliders towards all naval, all narrowminded, all quality

1st turn ally with eire and kalamar, kalamar dows norway
i crush scotland to 1 province. then assist kalamar take over all of norway
lend 100 gold for 1 turn at 10% to kalamar and dump them after they refuse to pay. they were useful to get scotland, but they keep getting into scuffles in the part of the world not interesting to brittany. making kalamar stronger would keep hansa possibly off my back.

make good with burgundy untill division of gaul. Choose the lesser path. cores are nice to have but savoy and burgundy are tough nut to crack.
ally strategically to take out the coast for myself, once normandy is inherited burgundy is allied and eire is taken down to 1 province. on their island.

it helps to capture eire rudders. wastes a lot of ships though. after trying to capture rudders while loosing 20 warships iceland rebelled. i quickly allied them and traded some 400 gold for the maps they inherited from eire. eire recaptured iceland after that. of well a rock int he middle of nowhere.

around columbus times i get first explorer and first get azores and then bermuda and then find maya and trade maps to them. I figure that 400 gold to get on their good side woudl outft 8 caravels. 8 caravels for their maps seem not too outrageous.

30000 horsemen and 15000 footmen at land tech level 5 make quick work of zapatecks making them vassals and freeing aztecks to make them vassals too. once conquistadore comes i will move and do same with inca and chimu.

You are scary.

However, this write-up reveals that one thing at least is working: as a player you saw more advantage to working witht the Maya than simply gunning them down. That was one of the design elements. A richer response to the New World than metronomic conquest.

MattyG

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Well Maya are next. I kept to them being last for the sole reason that they have many a warship and i had mine tied down in europe. Also early on they make for fine staging area for exploits in the carribean.

NA is a cakewalk still. setting up large profitable empires in there just makes it easy to have those provinces explotied by natives at better efficiency for those countries that are more "land slider" positive.

 

[MattyG]

Well Maya are next. I kept to them being last for the sole reason that they have many a warship and i had mine tied down in europe. Also early on they make for fine staging area for exploits in the carribean.

NA is a cakewalk still. setting up large profitable empires in there just makes it easy to have those provinces explotied by natives at better efficiency for those countries that are more "land slider" positive.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean. What does 'exploited by natives' refer to?

And of course, even other European countries are a cakewalk for a disciplined player in SP! The ai just cannot match human ingenuity. (Well, not the EU2 ai .....)

 

[unmerged(30761)]

a vassal country that exploits its land has 100 percent efficiency at collecting taxes on the land where main population is contry's own

a colonizing country with land slider tilted heavily towards land would have horrible enaty on taxes collected overseas. so a native country left intact as a vassal would send 50% of their taxes overseas wiothout the penalty, while the same country conquered woudl have much lower efficiency if not all "populism" and all naval

 

[Incompetent]

a vassal country that exploits its land has 100 percent efficiency at collecting taxes on the land where main population is contry's own

a colonizing country with land slider tilted heavily towards land would have horrible enaty on taxes collected overseas. so a native country left intact as a vassal would send 50% of their taxes overseas wiothout the penalty, while the same country conquered woudl have much lower efficiency if not all "populism" and all naval

But if you make them a vassal rather than conquering, you miss out on all that sweet, sweet sugar cane...

Seriously though, if we put in 'Maya/Zapotec/Dichali revival' events after they've been conquered, it may be a good idea for colonial powers to leave them independent.

 

[MattyG]

But if you make them a vassal rather than conquering, you miss out on all that sweet, sweet sugar cane...

Seriously though, if we put in 'Maya/Zapotec/Dichali revival' events after they've been conquered, it may be a good idea for colonial powers to leave them independent.

They all do have some nice events if the survive samllpox and invasion. Check the files.

 

[Incompetent]

They all do have some nice events if the survive samllpox and invasion. Check the files.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'Scottish revival' - ie their culture reemerges in the provinces after having been annexed. At the moment, once they've conquered the Pagans, the player will whip out the missionaries and never have to worry about their cultures again - but if provinces suddenly started turning Maya/Hindu in the 18th century as the locals learnt about their ancestry, it might make the player think twice.

 

[Imrryran]

Hello

I've just started a game with the mayas.

Two things disturbed me :
- we get the yucatan event even if we don't own yucatan
- the chance for colonisation to succeed in south america and antillas is realy low though the natives are culturally quite close to mayas, this could be compensate by a higher number of colonists and more money

Maybe some events should give colonisits from time to time, and lower population in main islands.

PS: if you need to host files just send them to d_imrryran[[at]]hotmail[[dot]]com
I'll put them quickly on my ftp.

 

[MattyG]

I was thinking more along the lines of 'Scottish revival' - ie their culture reemerges in the provinces after having been annexed. At the moment, once they've conquered the Pagans, the player will whip out the missionaries and never have to worry about their cultures again - but if provinces suddenly started turning Maya/Hindu in the 18th century as the locals learnt about their ancestry, it might make the player think twice.

That will partly happen if the Maya change religion. A European player will have to defeat them before they become Catholic, or that chance is lost.

However, your idea is a fine one and I will start thinking of a scripting for it.

 

[MattyG]

Hello

I've just started a game with the mayas.

Two things disturbed me :
- we get the yucatan event even if we don't own yucatan
- the chance for colonisation to succeed in south america and antillas is realy low though the natives are culturally quite close to mayas, this could be compensate by a higher number of colonists and more money

Maybe some events should give colonisits from time to time, and lower population in main islands.

PS: if you need to host files just send them to d_imrryran[[at]]hotmail[[dot]]com
I'll put them quickly on my ftp.

The Yucatan comment has been made earlier and I have drafted the alternate event to replace it ( it now happens to Guantanamo). Thanks anyway.

I can't do much about the colonisation chances without also improving the chance for the Europeans. However, I really like your suggestion for colonists, as it makes sense for the Maya (only). However, the maya will strictly not be colonisers if ai, as this will always screw things up if the players are playing Euro countries, as the whole of the Caribbean will be colonised. maybe this isn't such a bad thing, but I currently think it is. Please feel free to comment. However, for the Maya as a player country, its a pretty good idea. The problem though with the cash for it is that its open to abuse. Players can grab the cash and screw the Colonists.

 

[Imrryran]

Sorry for the Yucatan problem, I missed it when I read the thread.

Concerning the colonist, I mostly think about MP games. In SP it does not mind cause we can play at Extremely Fast speed and don't have to wait too long for the next colonist. But in MP games it may become really boring for a human player.

If you give colonist you have to give cash too because colonising this part of the world is really expensive compared to Russian Siberia on Portugese Africa. The Maya are a small country without big income. They can't afford more than 1 colonist a year by themsleves. I agree that it should be a human-only event.

To make this part of the game more attractive for a human player you could change the original setup. If most of the island had less than 1000 inhabitants the player would be "forced" to use cash to colonise them. It may lead to a choice by event between keeping a foot on the continent or colonising the islands.

Another point of low importance : the CoT icon and the Army's one are on the same point in Guantanamo.

 

[MattyG]

Sorry for the Yucatan problem, I missed it when I read the thread.

Concerning the colonist, I mostly think about MP games. In SP it does not mind cause we can play at Extremely Fast speed and don't have to wait too long for the next colonist. But in MP games it may become really boring for a human player.

If you give colonist you have to give cash too because colonising this part of the world is really expensive compared to Russian Siberia on Portugese Africa. The Maya are a small country without big income. They can't afford more than 1 or 2 colonists a year by themsleves. I agree that it should be a human-only event.

Another point of low importance : the CoT icon and the Army's one are on the same point in Guantanamo.

I believe that I cannot control the placement of icons on the map. Maybe it is something we can control, but if so I do not know how. o The same problem occurs with small islands. Yes, it can be frustrating.

Maybe the way we can do the colonist thing is that once a colony is established by the Maya in the Caribbean, then it triggers and event that gives an immediate pop boost of, say 500. This way colonization becomes cheaper overall for them.

They can also print money. It isn't in there yet, but I am writing a random event which gives deflation to all pagan countries in the Americas, because the economics are so different.