The Maesters did it. They secretly rule the world, answering only to their Illuminated brethren.
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From the reforms of marius to the reforms of Diocletian, the roman army looked remarkably similar.
But... how do you know that westerosi armies fought the same way during the invasion of King's landing as they did during the war of 5 kings? I mean, do we have references to the arms and weapons they utilized? The basic army composition in 1100 and 1400 for medieval europe would, for example, be pretty much the same. Heavy knights as the professional striking force, levied or less wealthy men at arms as the foot, a focus on siege warfare. The difference is that armor got heavier and better, and weapons adapted to deal with heavier and better armor.
I agree with this. The series spans a few years, so why are some so certain that technology is static? And even if we did have references for this, the point of view of the character is limited; they don't know how things were hundreds of years before their time.
Deepwood motte was AFAIK a castle built from wood. Technology doesn't really figure into it. It was bad at withstanding sieges because its builders didn't have the resources of, say, the Winterfell Starks, or Harren the Black, who built strong castles 100s or even 1000s of years before the story starts.
Stagnant tech is all fine by me.
Because, in the middle ages, your average peasant farmer knew perfectly well how to forge steel and build a castle.
tech has always been relegated to specializations. Heck, the formation of guilds was entirely based on keeping technology and techniques secret to the benefit of a small group of knowledgeable craftsmen. It is modern systems of education that broke that. SoIaF is absolutely no different.
Just as modern corpo-slave can construct tanks, and satellites and computers and so on. Technology use in all games and reality too always was viewed as used by country/realm/whatever-you-will-call-it. So if Reach have better engineers and architects available to the lord, he can build better castles. No guild would ever refuse it's realm ruler, unless they have more power than him (and actually want to refuse).
To the topic: Lhazareen are also tribal.
If you need proof that the world of ASOIAF is static and makes no sense at all, just look at language in Westeros. Someone who lives a mile south of the wall speaks the same language as someone who lives in the far end of Dorne (not just the nobles but also the commoners), they don't even speak in different dialects, only in slightly different accents, while in reality a Parisian, and a Occitanian couldn't understand one another beyond a basic level, and in England every village has it's own accent. Now before you say "now a Parisian and a Occitanian speak the same language and dialects, just remember that languages "unified" only on the 19th century, it was intentional, and it was because two things that are absent from ASOIAF- nationalism and a universal education system. And I haven't even began talking about the wildlings, Who speak the common tongue of those south of the wall do they have been seperated for three thousand (!) years, with only a minimal amount of interaction, one which consists mainly of killing one another, an activity that doesn't require much dialogue.
GRRM is a great writer, but when it comes to building a logical world, he is horrible. I'm OK with dragons and seasons that take years, I'm not OK that there is no fundamental social, technological, economic, linguistic or military change across so many years. Sure there is some technological innovation, some military innovation, but nothing fundamentally changes.
GRRM is a great writer, but when it comes to building a logical world, he is horrible. I'm OK with dragons and seasons that take years, I'm not OK that there is no fundamental social, technological, economic, linguistic or military change across so many years. Sure there is some technological innovation, some military innovation, but nothing fundamentally changes.
I am not sure, which is exactly why I am asking.
If you can prove me wrong, please do
I write some fiction that happens on GRRM's world, so more info on it is always good.
Actually... the main series isn't the only thing GRRM has written. We have the Dunk and Egg series, set 150 or so years before the main series, and we're due for a book that will explain the world of ASoIaF in a couple weeks, a few excerpts of which have been released (including one dealing with Aegon's landing), so... we have a fair number of sources, and as far as I can see... the technology of Westeros has, by large, remained static for at least the three hundred years of Targaryen rule.
Technology would probably not be entirely static (First Men = Bronze, Andals = Steel), but assuming that the -12,000 AL year for the First Men invasion is accurate, then Westeros has had bronze for 12,300 years. By comparison, the earliest time that we know of humans casting bronze is 4500 BCE, so we've had Bronze for ~6500 years.
Going by these figures, technology is at least going very slowly in comparison to our own world.
Going by these figures, technology is at least going very slowly in comparison to our own world.
I know about Dunk and Egg, but the first in that series is 90 years before ASOFAI, not 150. Besides, as stratigo touched on, even as technology developed in the real world, similar equipment and tactics were in use across centuries, as well as systems of government. As for the new book - can you really get that clear a picture from a couple of excerpts? I gave it a skim, but it didn't seem to go into detail.
I agree with Necal though. Perhaps tech should develop and spread more slowly.
I agree with Necal though. Perhaps tech should develop and spread more slowly.
Ah, you're right. 90 years, not 150. I was thinking of the Blood of Dragons MUSH that I was on for a little while. My apologies for the error
And... I guess you might be right that the excerpts thus far don't give enough detail to be sure, but... in my personal opinion, given the political staticness of the world of ASoIaF, I'd be much more willing to believe that there's a relative stagnativity of technology as well, rather than otherwise.
And... I guess you might be right that the excerpts thus far don't give enough detail to be sure, but... in my personal opinion, given the political staticness of the world of ASoIaF, I'd be much more willing to believe that there's a relative stagnativity of technology as well, rather than otherwise.
Well, that the same noble houses have remained in power, with the exact same lands, for at least three hundred years. There are a few cases of houses going extinct or having their lands taken from them, but they are in the vast minority.
Those houses have been in power for much, much longer than 300 years, the Tyrells being one notable exception. Even so, though. In our world, in the past 90 years, technology has changed and grown exponentially. In the past 150-300years, we've gone from considering bows and arrows a viable threat to having warships that can shoot at each other from upwards of 20 miles away.
Westeros, by comparison, still considers Harrenhal, a ruined, 300 year old castle, an incredibly defensible position.
Westeros, by comparison, still considers Harrenhal, a ruined, 300 year old castle, an incredibly defensible position.
Using your same logic, bows and arrows were viable threats for multiple thousand years.
They were and they still would be today (just not against guns
) but arrows and bows changed tremendously during the middle ages.And please, no need for reductio ad absurdum in a friendly conversation, even if it is a legitimate discution technique.
We're all fans here, of both the mod and the books that made it possible. If you can make us see your point we'll listen and you do have some good arguments to use (like GRRM's not being really a battle writter, so most advancement would be hidden from the readers).
Besides the castle design (and over the course of a few thousand years that isn't really that big a deal) the only thing that I could suspect as being slightly more recent is crossbows, so let's see if those existed when Aegon I was around.
Anyways, here's hoping the Dothraki get a lot of love this update.
Anyways, here's hoping the Dothraki get a lot of love this update.
Tribal Realms cannot become feudal if their not apart of a "organized relgion" aka christianity etc etc and reformed pagan in the game mechanics. This does allow for more advanced feudal realms to conquer tribal realms and with enough "investment" which is considerable (I think its somewhere around 800+ gold at least over a period of many years) to make a tribal holding feudal. I think this is adequate just make a mechanic preventing Dothraki from becoming one of the organized religions at start or reforming there. Its only slightly cheaper to convert a tribal holding into a feudal one (by an already existing feudal overlord conquering it) than colonizing a ruined territory. I dont think the existing game mechanic is not that far away from the original intentions of the colonization mechanics in AGOT.
In fact you could in my mind with some adjustment make all ruined territories tribal and have the colonization process happen over a period of years into a true feudal holding given the changes in 2.2.
Benfitis of this include 1. less reliance on events and province modifiers to spur investment 2. colonies can be handed over to "governors vassals" to manage things on behalf of their lord which is kinda fitting for a colony more than the colonizer having direct control. 3. thanks to the 2.2 patch changes the "governor vassal" liege can invest in their realms to develop them slowly over a period of many years.
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Most techs in Crusader Kings only represent a little bonus in armies, vassal opinions, etc. you are not really inventing nothing in the game...
I think holdings like grey water watch is a perfect example of the tribal holdings, since it is described as moving from place to place: "Finding Greywater watch doesn't mean you will find it again, since to moves."