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I think holdings like grey water watch is a perfect example of the tribal holdings, since it is described as moving from place to place: "Finding Greywater watch doesn't mean you will find it again, since to moves."
It's still a castle, and presumably Howland Reed rules the neck from it. The Reeds have been lords of the neck for some time, this does not fit with a tribal rulership.
 
While Westeros still fights it's wars in a medieval style, its medicines, finances, some sciences go into Renaissance and beyond levels. The main thing holding back development seems to be the lack of gunpowder to make individual martial prowess less relevant and the lack of a printing press to make the dissemination of knowledge and literacy on a large scale a thing. However, if you note Bravos's ability to produce a ship a day through standardized parts, you see that their is a great potential for an industrial revolution to arise if this was applied to industry as a whole. If that were to happen, I would imagine rapid and significant technological development would occur.
 
I think that another major factor in ASOIAF being technologically impaired is magic - Up until about 200 years ago, iirc, dragons appeared to be powering the world's magic somehow. (Dunk's mentor, Arlan of Pennytree, mentions that the winters have been longer and colder since the last dragon died.) I can easily see how this could have stunted tech growth, and the Maesters are also mentioned as being against the return of dragons. (I forget who, but another character states that dragons have no place in the world the Citadel is trying to build.)
 
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The basic army composition in 1100 and 1400 for medieval europe would, for example, be pretty much the same. Heavy knights as the professional striking force, levied or less wealthy men at arms as the foot, a focus on siege warfare. The difference is that armor got heavier and better, and weapons adapted to deal with heavier and better armor.
Depends on which region of Europe you are talking about. Highland Scotland and Ireland might have the same basic army composition in 1100 and 1400 (but wouldn't fit your description of what warfare looked like), but the armies of France, ENgland and the HRE was different in 1400 compared to 1100. That's the very reason some people (me included) are calling for late game DLC for vanilla, a system that properly represents 12th century warfare cannot also be used to represent 15th and 16th century warfare, without being so abstracted it fits 1th and 19th century warfare as well.

To sum the differences up, armor in the 12th century was maille, which is not as balanced with plate as popular culture and fantasy would have you believe. A suit of maille that covers the entire body is heavier than a full suit of 15th century plate, less protective and more expensive (because it takes longer to make). The advantages of maille over plate is that it doesn't require as much technological/metallurgic infrastructure and knowhow and that it is much quieter than plate.

However, to sum up the differences in French and German warfare between 1100 and 1400, the 12th century had the type of armies represented in CK2 and ASoIaF, the core of the army was a landed warrior elite and the small household retinues of high nobility that fought the same way (in the field of history these are called "Men-at-Arms", but popular culture calls them knights and uses men-at-arms for a different thing*), this core would be supported by militia levies and possibly a few sellswords.
By the 15th century, not only was gunpowder (in form of both handgonnes and cannons) ubiquitous in the French and German armies, but the way troops were raised was to a large extent different. In the mounted and highly armoured core of men-at-arms there were fewer of the lowest nobility, their role mostly replaced by commoner men-at-arms serving in the retinue of hig nobility. The levies of peasants were replaced by better drilled town miltias, the 15h century saw no French, German or Italian ruler arming their peasantry for use on the battlefield (the only role untrained peasants had in warfare was as foragers, harvester, builders and laborers), instead the larger towns were expected to either supply a militia that had regularly drilled and trained in warfare, or money in the form of a war tax to hire mercenary companies (in Italy the Condotta "Companies" were not really companies as much as complete armies, while in France and the HRE the mercenary companies were legit companies).
By the second half of the 15th century (it started in the 1440's in France), some of the "retinues" of independent rulers were far larger than they had been before. For example, the standing Ordonnance Companies of the King of France (i.e. his retinue) was larger than entire armies fielded by the Hohenstaufen emperors during the 13th century.

A last example of what 15th century armies looked like, during the Hussite war Regensburg supplied troops to fight the Hussites, what they supplied was not 200 light infantry and 50 pikemen, but:
73 Horsemen, 71 Crossbowmen, 16 Handgonners and 6 cannons. And that's generally what true of warfare Europe during the Late Middle Ages (i.e. from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500), not a single conscript to be found among the armies of France, Italy and the HRE. It's all men-at-arms, mercenaries and drilled town militias.
 
I'm pretty sure the apparent stasis of technology isn't just an oversight - I'd speculate that the Maesters deliberately work to inhibit progress in Westeros, at least, but we'll wait and see. Also, when magic was still around, presumably people had less need of technology - you just used magic instead.
 
Depends on which region of Europe you are talking about. Highland Scotland and Ireland might have the same basic army composition in 1100 and 1400 (but wouldn't fit your description of what warfare looked like), but the armies of France, ENgland and the HRE was different in 1400 compared to 1100. That's the very reason some people (me included) are calling for late game DLC for vanilla, a system that properly represents 12th century warfare cannot also be used to represent 15th and 16th century warfare, without being so abstracted it fits 1th and 19th century warfare as well.

To sum the differences up, armor in the 12th century was maille, which is not as balanced with plate as popular culture and fantasy would have you believe. A suit of maille that covers the entire body is heavier than a full suit of 15th century plate, less protective and more expensive (because it takes longer to make). The advantages of maille over plate is that it doesn't require as much technological/metallurgic infrastructure and knowhow and that it is much quieter than plate.

However, to sum up the differences in French and German warfare between 1100 and 1400, the 12th century had the type of armies represented in CK2 and ASoIaF, the core of the army was a landed warrior elite and the small household retinues of high nobility that fought the same way (in the field of history these are called "Men-at-Arms", but popular culture calls them knights and uses men-at-arms for a different thing*), this core would be supported by militia levies and possibly a few sellswords.
By the 15th century, not only was gunpowder (in form of both handgonnes and cannons) ubiquitous in the French and German armies, but the way troops were raised was to a large extent different. In the mounted and highly armoured core of men-at-arms there were fewer of the lowest nobility, their role mostly replaced by commoner men-at-arms serving in the retinue of hig nobility. The levies of peasants were replaced by better drilled town miltias, the 15h century saw no French, German or Italian ruler arming their peasantry for use on the battlefield (the only role untrained peasants had in warfare was as foragers, harvester, builders and laborers), instead the larger towns were expected to either supply a militia that had regularly drilled and trained in warfare, or money in the form of a war tax to hire mercenary companies (in Italy the Condotta "Companies" were not really companies as much as complete armies, while in France and the HRE the mercenary companies were legit companies).
By the second half of the 15th century (it started in the 1440's in France), some of the "retinues" of independent rulers were far larger than they had been before. For example, the standing Ordonnance Companies of the King of France (i.e. his retinue) was larger than entire armies fielded by the Hohenstaufen emperors during the 13th century.

A last example of what 15th century armies looked like, during the Hussite war Regensburg supplied troops to fight the Hussites, what they supplied was not 200 light infantry and 50 pikemen, but:
73 Horsemen, 71 Crossbowmen, 16 Handgonners and 6 cannons. And that's generally what true of warfare Europe during the Late Middle Ages (i.e. from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500), not a single conscript to be found among the armies of France, Italy and the HRE. It's all men-at-arms, mercenaries and drilled town militias.

You have an odd idea of what conscription is :p. Specifically, the men that a town was required to send to the monarch would be considered a militia, it isn't like they went around picking up random peasant farmers and shoving a sword into their hand. But that never really changed drastically. Now society would certainly shift plenty meaning, say, the independent small holders no longer represented the bulk of your levy and the bulk now comes from the more organized town and city militia. Depending on the society (the english had their love affair with the longbow and bent backwards to provide the social means for longbowmen to exist for example. While Italy decided to go with mercenary armies)

But the essence of my original post was that the way war was fought and the basic troop compisitions would not change. I mean the CK2 thing of "light infantry" "heavy infantry" is silly of course, but the way armies fought would not be revolutionized until the 15th century progressed. Once again, a heavy striking force of cavalry (I say knights, but men at arms is technically correct, I just find the term overbroad). Foot would be less trained and less wealthy segments of society, who would have the duty of supporting the striking arm, eg pinning a force in place to allow for a decisive action from the shock element. And pitched battles are extremely rare, siege warfare is the impetus of conflict. And yes, it is still a levy if that refers to town militia. As a note, men at arms usually represent a levy too. Mercenaries aren't.

An army in the 12th century would fight, on the field, very similar to an army of the 14th century, with a similar composition, because the heavy cavalry dominated the field. It isn't until the decisiveness of heavy cavalry is broken (in the 15th century) that there is a drastic change in field conflicts.
 
Another way of explaining the technological status could simply be that GRRM wants things that way in the setting and that at the end of the day might be all the reason required, I for one would find the series far lest interesting if everything was at a Europa Universalis or Victoria level of technological development although it could still have the great game of thrones and the rivalry's and ambitions of the nobility playing out but it's not the same somehow, eg Jamie Lannister's prowess with a sword means nothing in a world of guns and cannons unless melee ensures which wouldn't be likely.
 
Well, it would be kinda hard to have city militia regiments in Westeros, as i get a feeling that only real cities there are Oldtown and King's Landing. Rest of them are really only castle towns (and few market towns apparently), with their levies already counted as castle retinues.
 
Well, it would be kinda hard to have city militia regiments in Westeros, as i get a feeling that only real cities there are Oldtown and King's Landing. Rest of them are really only castle towns (and few market towns apparently), with their levies already counted as castle retinues.

Lannisport is possibly the third largest settlement in Westeros, since it's said to be bigger than White Harbor. White Harbor is also quite sizeable. But I think that's it - King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport and White Harbor are probably Westeros's only cities. The Free Cities are another matter, of course.
 
Just make the final building that de-tribalizes a province (the level IV castle / city building mentioned in the DD?) cost 9999999 gold and no one will ever be able to build it.
I have always been scared to do these kinds of things. Wouldn't the AI set his sights for it and save up a lot of money, never truly doing what they're supposed to?
 
Lannisport is possibly the third largest settlement in Westeros, since it's said to be bigger than White Harbor. White Harbor is also quite sizeable. But I think that's it - King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport and White Harbor are probably Westeros's only cities. The Free Cities are another matter, of course.

Ah, i forgot Lannisport. Although i don't see how it would be a prosperous city, being razed by Ironborn few years back, and, most importantly, who will they trade with? Lannisport location on the west shore of Westeros seems really bad for trading, considering length of trade routes they will easily be outmatched by traders from Oldtown or Arbor in freight cost and length. I guess it was more war and fishing port than trade city.
White Harbor... not so much, from description in book it clearly seem like castle town, only with trade port. Although it is undeniably biggest town in the North, being their only true port.

The other towns get razed / massacred too often to have any sort of traditions or civic organizations.

Not really. Most wars in Westeros from Conquest to War of the Five Kings were waged on the fairly small area of Crownlands. For example Highgarden (and other places in Reach too to an extent) was never sacked and with plenty of food and money there it should be known as big city, which it isn't.
 
Ah, i forgot Lannisport. Although i don't see how it would be a prosperous city, being razed by Ironborn few years back, and, most importantly, who will they trade with? Lannisport location on the west shore of Westeros seems really bad for trading, considering length of trade routes they will easily be outmatched by traders from Oldtown or Arbor in freight cost and length. I guess it was more war and fishing port than trade city.
White Harbor... not so much, from description in book it clearly seem like castle town, only with trade port. Although it is undeniably biggest town in the North, being their only true port.



Not really. Most wars in Westeros from Conquest to War of the Five Kings were waged on the fairly small area of Crownlands. For example Highgarden (and other places in Reach too to an extent) was never sacked and with plenty of food and money there it should be known as big city, which it isn't.

Highgarden is a castle though so it can't be a city and as for Lannisport it's probably trading gold and other goods plus sea trade is always cheaper and more efficient then overland trade as for the settings level of advancement and development, your right about it been sacked though it should still be recovering unless the Ironborn were driven out quickly or were more focused on burning ships and taking sex slaves... sorry salt wives.
 
Ah, i forgot Lannisport. Although i don't see how it would be a prosperous city, being razed by Ironborn few years back, and, most importantly, who will they trade with? Lannisport location on the west shore of Westeros seems really bad for trading, considering length of trade routes they will easily be outmatched by traders from Oldtown or Arbor in freight cost and length. I guess it was more war and fishing port than trade city.
White Harbor... not so much, from description in book it clearly seem like castle town, only with trade port. Although it is undeniably biggest town in the North, being their only true port.

They probably trade with... well, Oldtown and the Arbor. :p Remember that the Westerlands produce a lot of gold.

White Harbor is still considered a city by people in Westeros, but to quote Jaime, "White Harbor is to King's Landing as my brother Tyrion is to Ser Gregor Clegane."

Gulltown in the Vale of Arryn is the other, which I forgot about; it's the fourth largest 'city' before White Harbor and after Lannisport.

Not really. Most wars in Westeros from Conquest to War of the Five Kings were waged on the fairly small area of Crownlands. For example Highgarden (and other places in Reach too to an extent) was never sacked and with plenty of food and money there it should be known as big city, which it isn't.

Highgarden is, though, by all accounts, a truly massive castle - this is apparently a reasonably accurate representation.
 
Ah, i forgot Lannisport. Although i don't see how it would be a prosperous city, being razed by Ironborn few years back, and, most importantly, who will they trade with? Lannisport location on the west shore of Westeros seems really bad for trading, considering length of trade routes they will easily be outmatched by traders from Oldtown or Arbor in freight cost and length. I guess it was more war and fishing port than trade city.
White Harbor... not so much, from description in book it clearly seem like castle town, only with trade port. Although it is undeniably biggest town in the North, being their only true port.

From my understanding they produce a massive amount of Goldwork; several pieces of jewlery are, I believe, specifically mentioned as being from there.
 
I was under the impression that Lannisport wasn't razed per se, just that the Ironborn destroyed the fleet at harbor. I'd assume most of the city itself was protected by walls. Besides, even if trade is sometimes threatened by Ironborn (although note that for most of the past several centuries it's been protected by the Iron Throne, and beforehand the Kings of the Rock seemed to have launched several successful punitive strikes against Ironborn raiders), it's still probably safer and cheaper than overland travel. Even trade along the coast of the Westerlands themselves (and they probably traded with the Reach, and even the Ironborn when at peace) would have been significant.

For that matter, mining itself could be a major industry employing lots of people; Potosi in colonial Bolivia was for a while one of the largest cities in the Americas, simply because of the massive silver mines.

I'm frankly surprised there aren't more significant cities at the mouths of the Trident and the Mander; both would seem to be prime real estate for trading centers.
 
I'm frankly surprised there aren't more significant cities at the mouths of the Trident and the Mander; both would seem to be prime real estate for trading centers.

It would appear that merchants and sailors prefer Gulltown over trying to get deeper into the Bay of Crabs; perhaps goods are transhipped there from Maidenpool and Saltpans to avoid troublesome waters of larger vessels? It is a bit of a mystery though.
 
It would appear that merchants and sailors prefer Gulltown over trying to get deeper into the Bay of Crabs; perhaps goods are transhipped there from Maidenpool and Saltpans to avoid troublesome waters of larger vessels? It is a bit of a mystery though.
Well from what it seems of the Bay of crabs, some areas get pretty shallow. Recall when Brienne was walking to the Quiet Isle, the path to it was a shallow area of the bay. So possibly the bay becomes really shallow at some areas, causing trade with larger vessels up the bay to be practically impossible. Nothing kills an investment like a beached ship.

And these large cities probably have more things going for them than "located near a big river". Gulltown is a natural bay and the wealth of the Vale goes through it. White Harbor is the same situation. Lannisport has artisans who turn the gold and silver into masterpiece jewelry. Old Town is a natural bay, has great protection under Hightower, and has the wealth of the Arbor across it (I would also add the rest of the Reach because overland trade in the Reach is very safe even during the war). King' Landing was made into a city practically by the conquest. It's where Aegon put his throne and has been a capital. Plus Blackwater Bay is a natural bay as well.
 
Highgarden is a castle though so it can't be a city and as for Lannisport it's probably trading gold and other goods plus sea trade is always cheaper and more efficient then overland trade as for the settings level of advancement and development, your right about it been sacked though it should still be recovering unless the Ironborn were driven out quickly or were more focused on burning ships and taking sex slaves... sorry salt wives.

Well, unless actively opposed by ruler, castles tend to swiftly gather various servants, craftsman and all other kinds of people. Which usually leads to creation of town, remember Edo, for example?
Ironborn rather didn't stayed long in Lannisport, as they were crushed by Stannis.

They probably trade with... well, Oldtown and the Arbor. :p Remember that the Westerlands produce a lot of gold.

White Harbor is still considered a city by people in Westeros, but to quote Jaime, "White Harbor is to King's Landing as my brother Tyrion is to Ser Gregor Clegane."

Gulltown in the Vale of Arryn is the other, which I forgot about; it's the fourth largest 'city' before White Harbor and after Lannisport.



Highgarden is, though, by all accounts, a truly massive castle - this is apparently a reasonably accurate representation.

Well, it's really massive castle, probably biggest in Westeros. So again, not being sieged ever plus massive amount of food and gold would draw really, really LOTS of people. And i somehow can't imagine Mace Tyrell going for safety rather than comfort (and lower maintenance costs) and chasing off those people.

From my understanding they produce a massive amount of Goldwork; several pieces of jewlery are, I believe, specifically mentioned as being from there.

That's a good point, that kinda things probably sells well in Oldtown.
 
With regards to the Westerlands:


The Output from the Gold Mines (The Lanaster's mines at least) was drastically decreasing, and thus there must be more and more unemployment. Due to the war of the Five Kings there would be a smaller population, and thus the issues of unemployment would be lessened, however, in a situation the war did not happen or once it ends, unemployment will plague the westerlands for some time.