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Revenger97

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After Patch 1.25 and Rule Britannia are released, the buffing of provinces in Britain, France and the Low Countries means that there will be several areas of the map which will be severely in need of improvements. Indeed, this patch, coupled with previous changes and expansions have left several regions sorely under powered. Specifically, areas like Spain, Italy, which have not been updated since patch 1.12, and Austria, which has not been changed since the beginning of the game, are underdeveloped and the nations that inhabit them somewhat nerfed compared to neighboring regions. With this in mind, I have made a number of suggestions as to how the map of Europe should be updated in future patches.

Iberia (Spain, Portugal, Aragon and Granada)
Many on this forum have clamored for a Spanish immersion pack and for the Iberian peninsula to be improved upon. Indeed, several of Iberia's provinces are still blocky in shape, and the region remains less detailed in comparison to regions like France and England. With that in mind, I suggest the following provinces could be added to give Iberia a little facelift.

EUIV Spain.jpg


As you can see, this map adds in a few coastal provinces for Castile, such as Huelva, and splits the province of Galicia into three, potentially making its own state, and is no less smaller than the new provinces in Yorkshire are. These port provinces will boost Castile's sailor pool and naval force limit, allowing them to challenge other European powers for control of the seas. Furthermore, they benefit from greater detail in the interior, with provinces like Avila, Merida and Albacete to break up blocky provinces like Toledo and La Mancha. To compensate for this buff to Castile, her neighbors also benefit from increased provinces. Granada gains the province of Malaga to give it a little more staying power against Castile, and Aragon gains the provinces of Calatayud (to prevent bordergore if Navarra or Castile only take Zaragoza in a peacedeal) and Castellon. Portugal should also get more provinces in the Algarve region and potentially Viseu, to counter the increase in provinces elsewhere.

Italy
Though Italy has been improved in the past, by today's standard, the region is sorely lacking when smaller regions like England and even the Middle East are more detailed. Historically, Italy was the most densely populated region in Europe and an increase in provinces should reflect that. In particular, this thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/administrative-subdivision-of-italy.1075123/) contains several good ideas for Italian provinces as well as historical reasoning)

EUIV Northern Italy.jpg


As you can see, Northern Italy would increase in density, with cities such as Ravenna, Padua, Bergamo, Pavia and Saluzzo being added to the map. Milan would also benefit from the province of Ticino to buffer against the Swiss, as well as Savoy gaining the Val D'Aosta so that they don't lose access to Savoy if Switzerland takes Wallis.

EUIV Southern Italy.jpg


Southern Italy should also get some new provinces as well, splitting Abruzzi and adding the province of Benevento, as well as adding Capua as a buffer between Naples and Rome. The Papacy itself would also benefit from splitting Umbria between Perugia and Spoleto, increasing the power of the Papacy in the area. Personally, I think adding these provinces would balance these powers as well as make the area more interesting to play in.

Austria
Austria is perhaps one of the only regions that has not seen any real changes to the map since the game was released. As a result, it looks really bare in comparison to it's neighbors and rivals and can create problems in regards to liberty desire, seeing as it's junior partners, Hungary and Bohemia, have seen map updates and increases in development. To counter this, Austria could get a few more provinces.

EUIV Austria.jpg


As you can see, large provinces like Tyrol should be split. In particular, the province of Karnten should be split between Villach in the west and Klagenfurt in the east. Also adding in provinces like Celli make it a little more difficult for invaders like the Ottomans to fully occupy Austria. Many suggestions in this thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rian-region-nis-dhes-and-suggestions.1001758/) would also go a long way in making the area more interesting to play in, adding nations like the Archbishopric of Passau and the Free City of Rothenburg. In conclusion, the region would be as detailed compared to the rest of Europe.

The Balkans
Whereas Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia have seen many changes to better represent the area, Bulgaria is somewhat under-detailed despite being the largest Balkan power. Admittedly, any changes to this area would arouse concerns about buffing the Ottomans, however, I believe this is offset by buffing other nations as well.

EUIV Wallachia.jpg


As you can see, splitting the provinces of Tarnovo, Plovdiv and Silistria allows Bulgaria to be better represented in game. The number of states in the region can double (adding the area of Dobruja). Concerns about this being a buff for the Ottomans are placated by buffing Wallachia and Moldavia, as these nations have their provinces doubled and could potentially counteract the increase in provinces to the Ottmans. Also, the coast of Zeta should be split off to form the province of Kotor, owned by Venice in 1444, which can also assist in delaying Ottoman expansion in the Balkans.

EUIV Greece.jpg


Also, Greece could also use a few more updates to further counterbalance the Ottomans. Whilst Thessaloniki is slit from the rest of Macedonia (Venice should have a core on it), Thrace should also get two new provinces: Komotini and the fort of Gallipoli, representing the importance of Gallipoli to crossing the Dardanelles. in response, Byzantium is also slightly buffed, with Achaea split between Patras and Korinthis, and Athens being split between Athens and Thebes. Also, Epirus would be present on the map in the province of Aetolia, and Venice and Genoa both get an extra province in the region, with Crete split between Candia and Iraklion and Genoa gaining the island of Lesbos. Whilst the Ottomans gain three provinces in this region, the other powers would counterbalance this by gaining five new provinces.

France
Finally, France should also get a few more provinces in the south, to counterbalance changes made to Spain and Italy, just as the north has in response to changes in Britain.

EUIV France.jpg


Basically, Southern France would gain an extra province in Foix. Also, Drauginan would lose it's coastline back to Provence, which would be split between Marseilles (more relevant in this timeframe) and Toulon (and important French naval base in the Mediterranean)

Those are all the changes I can suggest. If anyone has any other ideas, feel free to share!
 
Upvote 0
The notion that increasing the size of Wallachia is a detriment to the Ottomans is redicilous. Wallachia is othodox and usually has no allies. So not only are you buffing the ottomas with their own provinces, you are also buffing one of their easy expansion targets, so in essence you are buffing them twice.

I do agree that the region needs more detail, but it should come with some serious nerfs to the ottos, because those provinces are already extremely low dev, so you cant even balance by splitting that around.
 
Corsica needs to be split in two, along the big mountain range that splits the Island in two.

Neither province would be particularly well developed, but I think the North was at the time a tad better off with some decent agriculture like olives.

Cyprus should be split in two as well. And get rid of the silly Mamluk guarantee on them, so Venice can actually get them.
 
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Thank you for Greece part, I also suggested some for Greece (nearly similar) also added even further improvements for Anatolia in my post,(new tags, releasable, formable) mostly targeting Ottoman's opponents, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Venice. (Ofc not all to be added)

I am also planning to do one for Syria-Iraq but I couldn't find much time. Its best to collect all around here for next patches.

Hello, I am back with more information and potential suggestions for enrichment of geography, from Aegean to Anatolia and Eastern parts until Caucasus (Armenia & Kurdistan regions) in game. There are things to be compiled here.

This post was very useful for Cradle of Civilization patch and added great depth to game, I still think there might be things to do here for fellow Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Georgian and Shia friends too. Of course not all will be added but I wanted to write guide for future mechanics of game.

Last time it didn't satisfy many Armenian friends, also Kurdish friends asked more.
And I wanted to add some surprises for underrepresented Greeks and Georgians too:

I will quickly describe lacking parts with latest patch and what could be done in future.

>Still some missing provinces:
I described what could be done there to add depth all around forums so map and provinces list:
rOJWlz.png

76y90r.png

Summary:

18 new provinces.

Countries:
a. 5 new provinces for Ottomans
b. 3 new provinces for Aq Qoyunlu
c. 2 new provinces for Trebizond
d. 2 new provinces for Genoa
e. 2 new provinces for Ramazan
f. 1 new province for Venice
g. 1 new province for Cyprus
h. 1 new province for Dulkadir
i. 1 new province for new tag Alaiye

Cultures:
a. 7 new Turkish provinces
b. 6 new Greek provinces
c. 2 new Armenian provinces
d. 2 new Georgian provinces (1 possibly Laz)
e. 1 new Kurdish province

Religions:
a. 8 new Orthodox provinces
b. 5 new Sunni provinces
c. 3 new Shia provinces
d. 2 new Coptic provinces

>New tags in region and more claims/cores
1. Alaiye as "alive" new tag in 1444. Vassal under Karaman. They were alive in 1444!

These guys were conquered just before 1444:
Karesi as new tag having core in Karesi province.

Artuqids as new tag having core in Artuqid. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Artuqid-dynasty

All of them are Turkish beyliks. Should have Turkish ideas. Artuqid may differ a bit only.

>New formable nation for better gameplay and cultural representation

Kingdom of Cilicia

m2JVp1.png

I believe this Armenian Kingdom should be formable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See_of_Cilicia
http://www.armenianorthodoxchurch.org/en/history

They are very similar to Jerusalem and I think they deserve to be included as reformable country, they died just around 1375 (not so past).
Capital: new Sis province
needed provinces to form: new Sis, new Alaiye, İçel, Adana, new Cebeli Bereket, Ayntab, Marash.

Armenian culture and Coptic religion is needed, too. Could be good reward for Coptic nations.

This will also be reward for players playing Armenian country.

Sis might be holy city for Coptics.

>New mechanics for Ottomans
My suggestion for future Ottoman gameplay:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sultanate-of-women-era.1068546/#post-23823772
 
Agree with most map changes, they're very good.

Would maybe cut down the provinces in eastern balkans a fraction, 5 provinces each for Wallacia and Moldavia would probably enough and nicer to keep them as one area each.

Also your Trieste province looks a bit weird, it's shouldn't include the west coast of Istria, as Trieste was a free city within the Habsburg realm, like most of interior istria, while the istrian coast was controlled by venice.
Could also be a province for Fiume, which was ruled semi-independently by a noble family under Habsburg suzerainity and be inherited by the Habsburgs entirely in the 1470's. Fr hyper detail a seperate province for the islands of the Kvarner area could be made, representing the Frankopan holdings on the island of Krk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankopan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krk

I would personally also split Albania in two provinces, using the map found here as inspiration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Kastrioti would rename Lezhe to Kruje and the northern part would be Shkodra (which is the part which should have the Venetian core.
 
Lovech would be independent in 1444 as the fortress there only fell to the Ottomans in '46.

Your choice of dividing Plovdiv and Zagora is strange geographically, as both provinces would have wooded mountains in the north, lowland farmland in the center and plains in the south. As ugly as it would look, dividing Filbe into a northern and southern province would be much more logical from both a topographic and ecological perspective.
 
Agree with most map changes, they're very good.

It's a bit of a mess.

And so I made my Iberia map. Overall Iberia is easy and not much you can think of there. Sure sources on pre 1822 provinces are very scarce for Spain, but as I find out many provinces haven't changed that much and you can nearly use nowadays or 1822 administrative divisions.
The only real exception is Albacete, it has no history for EU timeline - there was no such province and Albacete was just rural small town of no importance back then. So if ever somebody will try to split Murcia into 2, new province can't be called Albacete I think.

So my map:
Spain3.png


This is nearly maximum I could think of. Maybe Calatayud for Aragon, Villafranca for Leon and 1-2 extra provinces for Portugal and that's definitely maximum of provinces in Iberia I would ever want to see in EUIV.

1. Braga. So why I chose Braga especially since it has very limited space in the north. Thing is that I wanted to split development out of Porto a little so that Porto wouldn't be such high development province. And Braga being like 3-4th biggest city (after Lisboa, Porto and maybe Coimbra) in very populous north seems as easily justified solution. There's also historical port called Viana do Castelo in very north, so separate coastal province with another port north of Porto is totally reasonable. Another thing that for naval nation like Portugal coastal provinces will be of more value, so I wouldn't add inland provinces for Portugal anymore. Lisboa-Coimbra-Porto-Braga coastline should be highest development provinces in Portugal by far, and so I would redistribute development a little from inland provinces to the coast. Also at least 1 province producing naval supplies in Portugal would be nice, and that can be Braga.

2-4. Pontevedra-Lugo-Orense. If Wales was split into 4 provinces, then Galicia should be split into no less than 4 provinces as well. It's very prolific region. It's most densely populated region of Spain in EUIV timeline. Lots of historical cities - Santiago de Compostela, A Coruna, Ferrol, Lugo, Ourense, Vigo, Pontevedra. Lots of ports, naval bases, importance of Galicia as naval region was really huge and was 2nd only to Andalusia in general. I draw same provinces as they are today, but historically Galicia was made out of seven provinces, so it's well possible to make say A Coruna & Santiago de Compostela as separate provinces:
prov_arg1.jpg


5. Zamora. We need to split that huge Leon province.

6. Segovia. Old Castile is made of many provinces even today, so why Segovia and not Avila or Palencia? I made little research. First of all Valladolid is north of Douro river, so it can't be next to Madrid province, but rather between Leon & Burgos in the north. It's same place where Palencia province could be but as Valladolid is far more important and there's no real need to make many small provinces in this region, it would be best if Palencia was just part of Valladolid province. And so it's all between Avila and Segovia now. While Avila is few times bigger city now, simple information from wikipedia suggests that it was completely opposite few centuries before. Moreover - Segovia was among most prominent and biggest cities in all Spain in 16th century, so clear yes for Segovia.

7. Guadalajara. Economically very poor but historically rich province which could fix borders of New Castile a little.

8. Castellon. Tarragona needs to be returned to Catalonia where it belongs to, so Valencia region would get Castellon in return.

9. Malaga. It's just hard to explain why Malaga province isn't in EUIV for such a long time. It's top contender for another trade center modifier in Sevilla node.

10. Huelva. Personally I feel that this one is among lower priority provinces since it would cut Sevilla out from the sea and would remove river Estuary modifier from Seville which is already kind of incorrect. But if introduced, I think it should leave access to the sea for Sevilla, with river Guadiana Estuary modifier removed from Sevilla and Guadalquivir river Estuary modifier introduced in Cadiz.

11. Merida. Ok, this one is also low priority and I don't know how well it can be justified as I can't find any source showing such division in Extremadura. I just think it would be nice to have separate Extremadura state. But if not, 2 provinces of Extremadura can be merged with Leon state and there would be nothing wrong as all Extremadura was conquered by kingdom of Leon.



Then culture map:
Cultures.png


Source:
2937100.gif



And I would redistribute development to something like this:

North Portugal 57 (no change)
Porto 14
Coimbra 13
Braga 11
Beira 10
Braganca 9

South Portugal 41 (no change)
Lisboa 17
Beja 9
Algarve 8
Evora 7

Galicia 39 (+30 increase)
Santiago 12
Pontevedra 10
Lugo 9
Orense 8

Northern coast 41 (+4 inrease, Bordeaux trade node)
Asturias 12
Vizcaya 11 (richest port city in northern coast, current development of 6 is simply ridiculous.. It could be even trade center.)
Cantabria 9
Navarra 9

Leon 29 (-2 decrease)
Leon 11
Salamanca 10 (uff, I really wonder what background is behind current 19 development of province)
Zamora 8

Extremadura 20 (+2 increase)
Badajoz 8
Caceres 6 (I don't know why province trade good is Glass, but since Extremadura was very poor region I think its better to move it elswhere, say to neighboring Salamanca)
Merida 6

Old Castile 41 (+9 increase)
Burgos 11
Valladolid 11
Segovia 9
Rioja 5
Soria 5

New Castile 40 (-13 decrease)
Toledo 12
Madrid 11 (should be well boosted by events when capital moved to Madrid)
La Mancha 6
Cuenca 6
Guadalajara 5

Lower Andalusia 49 (no change)
Sevilla 15
Cadiz 10
Cordoba 9
Jaen 8
Huelva 7

Upper Andalusia 44 (+3 increase)

Malaga 12
Granada 11
Murcia 10
Almeria 8
Gibraltar 3

Catalonia 46 (-10 decrease)
Barcelona 12
Tarragona 10
Girona 9
Urgell 8
Roussillon 7

Valencia 43 (+15 increase)
Valencia 16
Alicante 10
Castellon 9
The Baleares 8

Aragon 32 (-3 decrease)
Zaragoza 14
Teruel 9
Pirineo 7
 
This is probably the best compilation of map changes I've seen in a long time. I'd love for them to just add all of this in one update, and then worry about adding content later, but instead we're probably likely to have an Iberia-Italy-Southern France or Italy-Germany expansion. My only complaint is that Portugal should get upwards of 150 development, as it was an equivalent power to Mainland Aragon and Castile. Castile should also have lots of autonomy in her provinces.
 
In regards to Iberia:

I chose Albacete because as a new province is needed in that space remove the blockiness of Toledo and La Mancha. Furthermore, Cuenca is too far to the north to move down into it's place, which is why something from that area is needed to make the borders look better. Perhaps Almansa can be the province instead, since it was the sight of a major battle in the War of the Spanish Succession. Furthermore, Portugal does need a buff to it's development to counter the increases made to Castile and Aragon, which is why I still think the province of Viseu should be added, but I also think that Braga is a good addition to help Portugal boost it's navy (and the province should have naval supplies as a trade good). I still maintain that the Algarve should be split between Silves and Faro, if only to give Portugal more ports, by cutting off some of Beja's border in the south. That way, Portugal can have three states; Portucale (Porto, Braga, Braganca and Viseu), Lisbon (Lisboa, Coimbra, Beira and Evora) and Algarve (Beja, Silves and Faro). As for Guadalajara, I think the province would be a welcome addition, but my main concern is where to place it, since inserting it basically means reducing Soria to a microprovince. In any case, I made a revision to my earlier suggestions based on the feedback.

EUIV Iberia.jpg


As you can see, all of the changes suggested by @BalticM have been made, but I've also kept the Albacete province on the map, since we still need a province to offset the blockiness of Toledo and La Mancha. If preferable, the province can be named Almansa. However, it would not be the 'be all and end all' if Paradox didn't add this province. Hopefully this map is more preferable.
 
Viseu is already in game. It's capital of Beira province. Beira = Viseu.

And big provinces in inland Spain is actually quite normal, especially in south-southeast-east of central Iberia. There are lots of wastelands, mountains and etc, big parts of La Mancha, Toledo, Cuenca, Soria, even Teruel, Zaragoza were largely uninhabbited.
Center of Castile economic and political power in year 1444 was in the north, in current EUIV Leon-Salamanca-Burgos-Valladolid provinces. North coast was also rich and heavily populated but it wasn't directly under Castile control and had sort of autonomy.
While south - Extremadura and Castile La Mancha were poor lands compared to the north. Even Andalusia wasn't that rich in year 1444, but rather devastated by wars.
So during the course of the game migration of people and wealth was moving to the south in Iberia, especially towards Andalusia region. And from about 17-18th century already Leon-Castile region becomes just as poor as Extremadura-La Mancha, and all waelth of Spain lies in coastal regions, particularly in Andalusia.

There also could be idea to make impassable wasteland regions in Spain, mountains. That would certainly reduce seize of provinces, but in general I see it as fairly complicated task. Mountain map of Spain:
cantabrian mountains final 1.JPG
 
As always very glad to see a map change suggestion thread :) If/when we revisit a region we go back to threads like these to see what people have suggested and if we should revise our plans so the more discussion we have on things like these beforehand (preferably with good references) the better. :)
 
Re. Iberian cultures, I think the Castilian dominions of Andalusia should be Castilian and Castile/Spain should definitely not accept Andalusian (Andalusian should then be in the Maghrebi group). Historically they still expelled them even after force-converting them to Christianity. In the game, Castile tolerates this cultures from the start, which makes it a complete non-issue. Castile/Spain should have more work expelling/extirpating or tolerating/integrating this culture.

Re. sources, detailed historical maps are hard to come by (most maps only depict provinces which are more or less equivalent to the game's states). The 18th c. "system of geographies" tend to have more detailed information on the provincial subdivisions, towns, terrain, goods, etc.

e.g. https://books.google.com.mt/books?i...ZAhVI_KQKHcddCmMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The only downside is that they're less reliable and informative when it comes to non-European regions.
 
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Re. Iberian cultures, I think the Castilian dominions of Andalusia should be Castilian and Castile/Spain should definitely not accept Andalusian (Andalusian should then be in the Maghrebi group). Historically they still expelled them even after force-converting them to Christianity. In the game, Castile tolerates this cultures from the start, which makes it a complete non-issue. Castile/Spain should have more work expelling/extirpating or tolerating/integrating this culture.

I just want to add that given the now mission system, Andalusia should get a mission to the Christians from Iberia. (Maybe to share the mission pool with Granada)
If the Andalusian culture were to added to the Maghrebi culture group (as you suggest) I would suggest (or even in the current system) that Andalusia should be rewarded with reduced culture conversion cost for the re-reconquista or an accepted culture slot/increased missionary strength for some years.