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Revenger97

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After Patch 1.25 and Rule Britannia are released, the buffing of provinces in Britain, France and the Low Countries means that there will be several areas of the map which will be severely in need of improvements. Indeed, this patch, coupled with previous changes and expansions have left several regions sorely under powered. Specifically, areas like Spain, Italy, which have not been updated since patch 1.12, and Austria, which has not been changed since the beginning of the game, are underdeveloped and the nations that inhabit them somewhat nerfed compared to neighboring regions. With this in mind, I have made a number of suggestions as to how the map of Europe should be updated in future patches.

Iberia (Spain, Portugal, Aragon and Granada)
Many on this forum have clamored for a Spanish immersion pack and for the Iberian peninsula to be improved upon. Indeed, several of Iberia's provinces are still blocky in shape, and the region remains less detailed in comparison to regions like France and England. With that in mind, I suggest the following provinces could be added to give Iberia a little facelift.

EUIV Spain.jpg


As you can see, this map adds in a few coastal provinces for Castile, such as Huelva, and splits the province of Galicia into three, potentially making its own state, and is no less smaller than the new provinces in Yorkshire are. These port provinces will boost Castile's sailor pool and naval force limit, allowing them to challenge other European powers for control of the seas. Furthermore, they benefit from greater detail in the interior, with provinces like Avila, Merida and Albacete to break up blocky provinces like Toledo and La Mancha. To compensate for this buff to Castile, her neighbors also benefit from increased provinces. Granada gains the province of Malaga to give it a little more staying power against Castile, and Aragon gains the provinces of Calatayud (to prevent bordergore if Navarra or Castile only take Zaragoza in a peacedeal) and Castellon. Portugal should also get more provinces in the Algarve region and potentially Viseu, to counter the increase in provinces elsewhere.

Italy
Though Italy has been improved in the past, by today's standard, the region is sorely lacking when smaller regions like England and even the Middle East are more detailed. Historically, Italy was the most densely populated region in Europe and an increase in provinces should reflect that. In particular, this thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/administrative-subdivision-of-italy.1075123/) contains several good ideas for Italian provinces as well as historical reasoning)

EUIV Northern Italy.jpg


As you can see, Northern Italy would increase in density, with cities such as Ravenna, Padua, Bergamo, Pavia and Saluzzo being added to the map. Milan would also benefit from the province of Ticino to buffer against the Swiss, as well as Savoy gaining the Val D'Aosta so that they don't lose access to Savoy if Switzerland takes Wallis.

EUIV Southern Italy.jpg


Southern Italy should also get some new provinces as well, splitting Abruzzi and adding the province of Benevento, as well as adding Capua as a buffer between Naples and Rome. The Papacy itself would also benefit from splitting Umbria between Perugia and Spoleto, increasing the power of the Papacy in the area. Personally, I think adding these provinces would balance these powers as well as make the area more interesting to play in.

Austria
Austria is perhaps one of the only regions that has not seen any real changes to the map since the game was released. As a result, it looks really bare in comparison to it's neighbors and rivals and can create problems in regards to liberty desire, seeing as it's junior partners, Hungary and Bohemia, have seen map updates and increases in development. To counter this, Austria could get a few more provinces.

EUIV Austria.jpg


As you can see, large provinces like Tyrol should be split. In particular, the province of Karnten should be split between Villach in the west and Klagenfurt in the east. Also adding in provinces like Celli make it a little more difficult for invaders like the Ottomans to fully occupy Austria. Many suggestions in this thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rian-region-nis-dhes-and-suggestions.1001758/) would also go a long way in making the area more interesting to play in, adding nations like the Archbishopric of Passau and the Free City of Rothenburg. In conclusion, the region would be as detailed compared to the rest of Europe.

The Balkans
Whereas Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia have seen many changes to better represent the area, Bulgaria is somewhat under-detailed despite being the largest Balkan power. Admittedly, any changes to this area would arouse concerns about buffing the Ottomans, however, I believe this is offset by buffing other nations as well.

EUIV Wallachia.jpg


As you can see, splitting the provinces of Tarnovo, Plovdiv and Silistria allows Bulgaria to be better represented in game. The number of states in the region can double (adding the area of Dobruja). Concerns about this being a buff for the Ottomans are placated by buffing Wallachia and Moldavia, as these nations have their provinces doubled and could potentially counteract the increase in provinces to the Ottmans. Also, the coast of Zeta should be split off to form the province of Kotor, owned by Venice in 1444, which can also assist in delaying Ottoman expansion in the Balkans.

EUIV Greece.jpg


Also, Greece could also use a few more updates to further counterbalance the Ottomans. Whilst Thessaloniki is slit from the rest of Macedonia (Venice should have a core on it), Thrace should also get two new provinces: Komotini and the fort of Gallipoli, representing the importance of Gallipoli to crossing the Dardanelles. in response, Byzantium is also slightly buffed, with Achaea split between Patras and Korinthis, and Athens being split between Athens and Thebes. Also, Epirus would be present on the map in the province of Aetolia, and Venice and Genoa both get an extra province in the region, with Crete split between Candia and Iraklion and Genoa gaining the island of Lesbos. Whilst the Ottomans gain three provinces in this region, the other powers would counterbalance this by gaining five new provinces.

France
Finally, France should also get a few more provinces in the south, to counterbalance changes made to Spain and Italy, just as the north has in response to changes in Britain.

EUIV France.jpg


Basically, Southern France would gain an extra province in Foix. Also, Drauginan would lose it's coastline back to Provence, which would be split between Marseilles (more relevant in this timeframe) and Toulon (and important French naval base in the Mediterranean)

Those are all the changes I can suggest. If anyone has any other ideas, feel free to share!
 
Upvote 0
Re. Iberian cultures, I think the Castilian dominions of Andalusia should be Castilian and Castile/Spain should definitely not accept Andalusian (Andalusian should then be in the Maghrebi group). Historically they still expelled them even after force-converting them to Christianity. In the game, Castile tolerates this cultures from the start, which makes it a complete non-issue. Castile/Spain should have more work expelling/extirpating or tolerating/integrating this culture.

Re. sources, detailed historical maps are hard to come by (most maps only depict provinces which are more or less equivalent to the game's states). The 18th c. "system of geographies" tend to have more detailed information on the provincial subdivisions, towns, terrain, goods, etc.

e.g. https://books.google.com.mt/books?i...ZAhVI_KQKHcddCmMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The only downside is that they're less reliable and informative when it comes to non-European regions.

In 1250 the borders that appear in the game were already established.
The Andalusians of the Kingdom of Castile were integrated since the majority were descendants of Christians who had paid taxes under Muslim rule or were descendants of Castilian repobladores.
What I do buy is that the culture of the kingdom of Granada is Mudejar or Moorish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudéjar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco

And with strong penalties and that to change it or spend many years, or you miss and lose development.
Development that should be much higher than what the game establishes.
 
Yes it is pretty big but it's also kinda sparsely populated, Being beat by many european countries in population density
 
It would be a good idea to make barcelona an important trade center and make higher its development since it was one of the most important and rich cities of the Mediterranean.
Its weird to see how Valencia is a more developed and more important in trade than barcelona, shure it was an important and rich coastal city and event during a short period the capital of the Crown of Aragon, but it wasn't as important as Barcelona during the time period.
 
In 1250 the borders that appear in the game were already established.
The Andalusians of the Kingdom of Castile were integrated since the majority were descendants of Christians who had paid taxes under Muslim rule or were descendants of Castilian repobladores.
What I do buy is that the culture of the kingdom of Granada is Mudejar or Moorish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudéjar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco

And with strong penalties and that to change it or spend many years, or you miss and lose development.
Development that should be much higher than what the game establishes.

Wait, so you are suggesting we could have Granada as Mudejar and granadan provinces as Andalusian?
 
Wait, so you are suggesting we could have Granada as Mudejar and granadan provinces as Andalusian?

I think he's suggesting Granadan provinces be Mudejar and Andalusian provinces Andalusian. Which, honestly, I think is a good idea.
 
As always very glad to see a map change suggestion thread :) If/when we revisit a region we go back to threads like these to see what people have suggested and if we should revise our plans so the more discussion we have on things like these beforehand (preferably with good references) the better. :)
Glad to see you commenting in a thread like this. It would be an honor if somebody from the team could check my map mod I have in the signature. It awaits an update so it can work with England patch, but I am convinced that if you decide to check one of the areas I already touched, you would have a clearer image of what you can do to the map, I try to make my map as accurate as I can, even despite occasional lack of good maps. Hell, you might as well copy portions of my files if you see fit.
Here are some screens from the yet unreleased update. Italy and Switzerland are still work in progress. I do not mean to spam adverts, but my work can serve as a suggestion taken "few steps further". It is clearly more detailed than what you will probably ever want to do, but any help I can give or any response I receive, the better. Keep up the good work on the game.
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Glad to see you commenting in a thread like this. It would be an honor if somebody from the team could check my map mod I have in the signature. It awaits an update so it can work with England patch, but I am convinced that if you decide to check one of the areas I already touched, you would have a clearer image of what you can do to the map, I try to make my map as accurate as I can, even despite occasional lack of good maps. Hell, you might as well copy portions of my files if you see fit.
Here are some screens from the yet unreleased update. Italy and Switzerland are still work in progress. I do not mean to spam adverts, but my work can serve as a suggestion taken "few steps further". It is clearly more detailed than what you will probably ever want to do, but any help I can give or any response I receive, the better. Keep up the good work on the game.
View attachment 353525

While I admire all the hard work you've clearly poured into this, I think some of those divisions might be a bit too indepth for vanilla.
 
I really appreciate your work on this, I also wanna suggest you to use my maps and lists on your mod, too. Information is very credible and accurate. Possibly best to date cause all coming from Ottoman tax textbooks.
oOmEz2.png


I also found province names from Ottoman archives, downloadable at Turkish national site, they took information from Tahrir books (tax books) and compiled, downloadable here:

https://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/.../elektronik-yayinlar/osmanli_yer_adlari_2.pdf
https://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/assets/content/Yayinlar/elektronik-yayinlar/Rumeli_eyaleti.pdf
https://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/...enel-mudurluk-yayinlar/osmanli_yer_adlari.pdf

1. Vilayet names from 1538:
rODE6a.png

2. Liva names from first half of 1500s I am writing down: (Anyone can click links for further small localization info, including kazas, nahiyes[villages), castles, cities)

A. ANATOLIA VILAYET:

I-KÜTAHYA LİVASI
II-KARAHİSAR-I SAHİB LİVASI
III-SULTANÖNÜ LİVASI
IV-HAMİD LİVASI
V-ANKARA LİVASI
VI-BOLU LİVASI
VII-KASTAMONU LİVASI
VIII-KENGIRI LİVASI
IX-KOCAİLİ LİVASI
X-HUDAVENDİGAR/BEY LİVASI
XI-BİGA LİVASI
XII-KARESİ LİVASI
XIII-SARUHAN LİVASI
XIV-AYDIN LİVASI
XV-MENTEŞE LİVASI
XVI-TEKE LİVASI
XVII-ALAİYE LİVASI

B. KARAMAN VILAYET

I-KONYA LİVASI
II-BEYŞEHRİ LİVASI
III-AKŞEHİR LİVASI
IV-LARENDE LİVASI
V-AKSARAY LİVASI
VI-NİĞDE LİVASI
VII-KAYSERİYE LİVASI
VIII-İÇİL LİVAS

C. RUM VİLAYET

a. RUM-I KADİM VİLAYETİ
I-AMASYA LİVASI
II-ÇORUMLU/ÇORUM LİVASI
III-SİVAS-TOKAT LİVASI
IV-SONİSA-NİKSAR LİVASI
V-KARAHİSAR-I ŞARKİ LİVASI
VI-CANİK LİVASI

b. RUM-I HADİS VİLAYETİ
VII-TRABZON LİVASI
VIII-KEMAH LİVASI
IX-BAYBURD LİVASI
X-MALATYA LİVASI
XI-GERGER LİVASI
XII-DİVRİĞİ LİVASI

D. DİYARI BEKR VİLAYETİ

I-AMİD LİVASI
II-MARDİN LİVASI
III-SİNCAR LİVASI
IV-MUSUL LİVASI
V-ARABKİR LİVASI
VI-ERGANİ LİVASI
VII-ÇİRMÜK LİVASI
VIII-SİVEREK LİVASI
IX -KİĞI LİVASI
X -ÇEMİŞKEZEK LİVASI
XI -HARPUT LİVASI
XII -RUHA LİVASI
XIII -ANA LİVASI
XIV-DEY ve RAHBE LİVASI
XV-HISN-I KEYF VE SİİRD KAZALARI

E. ARAB VİLAYETİ

I-ŞAM SANCAĞI
II-GAZZE SANCAĞI
III-SAFED SANCAĞI
IV-SALT VE ACLUN SANCAĞI
V-HALEB SANCAĞI
VI-HAMA VE HUMUS SANCAĞI
VII-TRABLUS SANCAĞI
VIII-AYNTAB SANCAĞI
IX-BİRECİK SANCAĞI
X-A‘ZAZ VE EKRAD SANCAĞI

ÇUKURABAD VİLAYETİ

XI-ADANA SANCAĞI
XII-ÜZEYR SANCAĞI
XIII-TARSUS SANCAĞI
XIV-SİS SANCAĞI

F. ZÜLKADİRİYYE VİLAYETİ

I-MARAŞ SANCAĞI
II-BOZOK SANCAĞI

G. ERZURUM VİLAYETİ
1-Erzurum ve Bayburd ve Kemah livası
2-Trabzon livası
3-Karahisar-ı Şarki livası
4-Kiği livası
5-Pasinabad livası
6-Oltı livası
7-İspir livası
8-Batum livası
9-Hınıs ve Handırıs livası
10-Çemişkizek livası
11-Bargir livası
12-Baradız ve Kub livası
13-Kala-i Mamervan livası
14-Kızuçan livası
15-Döşkayası ve Tebriz Mişesi ve Yedi ve Kars livası
16-Tortum livası
17-Kala-i Abdullah livası
18-Kala-i Livane Başkapan ve İşkeftoz ve Reci (?) livası
19-Kala-i Kemhınıs ve Nebbak ve Yerik ve Bersek (?) livası
I-HINIS SANCAĞI (It was relatively bigger than others I guess?)

I. VAN VİLAYETİ
1-Van Livası
2-Adilcevaz Livası
3-Alpova/Albak (?) Livası
4-Bitlis Livası
5-Erciş Livası
6-Kesani Livası
7-Bargiri Livası

I - BİTLİS SANCAĞI (It was relatively bigger than others I guess?)
II-ADİLCEVAZ SANCAĞI ((It was relatively bigger than others I guess?)

J. BAĞDAD VİLAYETİ
1-Bağdad livası
2-Accur ve Zahum livası
3-Ana livası
4-Aşiret-i Bacıvanlu livası
5-Baban livası
6-Bayat livası
7-Beksa livası
8-Berid ve Alut livası
9-Biraruz ve Zeyn livası
10-Cessan ve Bedra livası
11-Cevazir livası
12-Dahuk Kerkük livası
13-Dertenk Gülhurmend Liccin livası
14-Erbil livası
15-Harirduni/Harir u Düveyn livası
16-Hılle livası
17-Hofti livası
18-Kala-i Derne livası
19-Kula ve Kızılirbat ve Zebkiabad livası
20-Musul livası, Bağdad Vilayeti
21-Rumahiyye livası
22-Rumivasto livası
23-Semaraha livası
24-Semavat livası
25-Şehiloğlu livası
26-Tikrit livası
27-Urman livası
28-Zekiyye livası
29-Zenkabad livası

KERKÜK LİVASI (It was relatively bigger than others I guess?)

Summary:
NZoljP.png



AND NOW RUMELİ VİLAYET (basically Balkans):

1-PAŞA/SOFYA LİVASI
2-AGRIBOZ LİVASI
3-ALACAHİSAR LİVASI
4-AVLONYA LİVASI
5-BOSNA LİVASI
6-ÇİRMEN LİVASI
7-GELİBOLU LİVASI
8-HERSEK LİVASI
9-İLBASAN LİVASI
10-İSKENDERİYE LİVASI
11-İZVORNİK LİVASI
12-KARLIİLİ LİVASI
13-KEFE LİVASI
14-KÖSTENDİL LİVASI
15 -MORA LİVASI
16 -NİĞBOLU LİVASI
17 -OHRİ LİVASI
18-PRİZRİN LİVASI
19-RODOS LİVASI
20-SEMENDİRE LİVASI
21-SİLİSTRE LİVASI
22-TIRHALA LİVASI
23-VİDİN LİVASI
24-VİZE LİVASI
25-VULÇITRIN LİVASI
26-YANYA/YANİNA LİVASI

These 3 are possibly about religious groups:
27-MÜSELLEMAN-I KIZILCA LİVASI
28-MÜSELLEMAN-I ÇİNGÂNE LİVASI
29-VOYNUGÂN-I ISTABL-I ÂMİRE LİVASI

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G9JBzy.png

y0DE40.png

6J19nN.png

W7P0Yq.png

3EV7oO.png

Rnv03G.png


There are many accurate information in game but there's still lot to expand here!
I guess I need to draw new map :D
 
It would be a good idea to make barcelona an important trade center and make higher its development since it was one of the most important and rich cities of the Mediterranean.
Its weird to see how Valencia is a more developed and more important in trade than barcelona, shure it was an important and rich coastal city and event during a short period the capital of the Crown of Aragon, but it wasn't as important as Barcelona during the time period.

Check history of Valencia & Barcelona more carefully before stating something like this ;) Valencia was far far more important and advanced city for Aragon up to years 1800 or so, and it's only since then when Barcelona grew bigger than Valencia and possibly replaced it as main spanish city on mediterranean coast.
 
So we might be getting a iberia expansion?

I really wanted to see an updated Rumelia/Bulgaria/Greece, but new map changes in general are always welcome (if we're getting them).
 
I would not get Italy to many provinces England / Wales type of 5,000 km2, I am not in favor. Yes, maybe 6 or 7 more provinces, and a general development increase.
United Kingdom: almost 400 with lots of provinces, a bit so you can develop as it was from 1670.
Spain: almost 500 with at least one province per 10,000 km2
Italy: 750 with some 50 provinces. That is, high initial provincial development but not much future.
France: objectively at least one province per 10,000 km2 minimum. And total development of 850-900
 
A nation that should really be added is the bishopric of Trento because it already has its province (the wrongly named südtirol, I say wrongly because südtirol is actually norther and this province should be named welschtirol when owned by germans) with the correct culture (venetian) all it needs is a tag, with maybe national ideas, missions etc coming in a future expansion about Italy. Other reason to add it are: the historical importance of the country in the counter reformation (Council of Trent) and its role as a buffer zone/communication road between Italy and the empire (it should not be affected by the shadow Kingdom if controlled by ai), which would prevent Austria from just demolishing Venice every time and add a bit of difficulty in stopping the shadow Kingdom event for Austria (also Austria should start with a guarantee on the country or as its ally, I don't think Trento should be a vassal since, although strongly influenced by the Habsburg, it was able to remain independent until it was dismantled by napoleon and even had international importance during the council of Trent)
Sources: I live in trento and study early modern history at University, unfortunately all my sources are in Italian but I can provide them if asked to and it's not difficult to find info on the matter: in the other thread about Italy you put in this thread there are 2 maps of italy in the early modern era and both show the bishopric of Trent.
 
I'm not particular keen on having Trent as an independent state, they didn't control the whole province and there under strong austrian influence. There are several potential OPM's I feel have better justifications to be in the game that isn't and for the case of Austria I rather see Cilli or Gorizia as independent.

It's very typical the game doesn't represent every potential tag even if it's large enough to have a province
 
I'm not particular keen on having Trent as an independent state, they didn't control the whole province and there under strong austrian influence. There are several potential OPM's I feel have better justifications to be in the game that isn't and for the case of Austria I rather see Cilli or Gorizia as independent.

It's very typical the game doesn't represent every potential tag even if it's large enough to have a province
I think this is all matter of opinion. I see your point. Anyway the borders aren't perfect, but as you know if you watched the maps, most of the province was under Trent's control and in the game the culture Is listed as venetian, so I don't think it makes sense for it to be part of austria, especially considering the large amount of little opm's in the area which were much more short lived, littler and less important (Trent only being important due to the council of course) but exist anyway in the game. Of course it is not a vital change and I do not want to explain again the reasons why I think it would be a good thing as I already did it in my last comment. I hope you understand points.
 
From wiki, tell me if anything is wrong. Makes very good sense to me that trent is part of austria

this did not prevent the bishops to lose further authority over the city and the countryside in the course of the 15th century, even though an attempt by the citizens to create a republic in 1407 was bloodily suppressed. In 1425 Trento was declared a commune. Another revolt broke out ten years later, and Austro-Tyrolese troops invaded the territory of the principality. In the following year, the bishops struggled in order to thwart the growing power of the Habsburgs, and in the end the principality reduced to an effective subjugation to Austrian authority.

In June 1511 the two principalities of Trento and Brixen received the status of "perpetual confederate" states among Austrian possessions. The peace of 1516 with the Republic of Venice, however, reduced the principality to a discontinuous enclavebetween large Habsburg possessions
 
From wiki, tell me if anything is wrong. Makes very good sense to me that trent is part of austria

this did not prevent the bishops to lose further authority over the city and the countryside in the course of the 15th century, even though an attempt by the citizens to create a republic in 1407 was bloodily suppressed. In 1425 Trento was declared a commune. Another revolt broke out ten years later, and Austro-Tyrolese troops invaded the territory of the principality. In the following year, the bishops struggled in order to thwart the growing power of the Habsburgs, and in the end the principality reduced to an effective subjugation to Austrian authority.

In June 1511 the two principalities of Trento and Brixen received the status of "perpetual confederate" states among Austrian possessions. The peace of 1516 with the Republic of Venice, however, reduced the principality to a discontinuous enclavebetween large Habsburg possessions
The Wiki is not really correct, as it tries to oversimplify things: it is true that in the 15th century the Bishop lost power but Austria never conquered the land, they suppressed the revolts because the Bishop wasn't able to and asked their help. All Austria conquered in the region were some small border villages as you can see from the map I talked about earlier, I guess the most appropriate status for the country at the beginning of the game would be a march of Austria, because it was never integrated into Austria and it existed until early 19th century. It is also notable that while in the 15th century Trent could be considered a march of Austria, in the early 16th century the authority of the bishops saw a resurgence as they meddled on international politics and organized one of the greatest councils in the history of Catholicism, so I wouldn't count them as a march anymore in that period.
In conclusion, although the status of the country in the various eras is ambiguous I am reluctant to make them a march since titles like that of confederate states among Austrian possessions don't really mean anything (remember that theoretically Austria should rule the whole hre but you see that it wasn't the case actually) and they managed to remain independent for centuries. One thing is clear: the bishopric definitely existed until napoleon came and its bishops could vote in imperial diets and rule the region until the end.
I am sorry but most sources are in Italian. If you want info about the revolution of 1407 and the arrival of the Habsburgs try and Google Rodolfo belenzani, if you want info about the cultural and political rebirth of trento in the early 16th century, Google bernardo Clesio and Cristoforo madruzzo
Edit for example Clesio was a counsellor of emperor Maximilian I (who was even crowned in trento) and played an important role in the election of Charles V and of Ferdinand I in bohemian and was friends with Erasmus. He also organised the famous council and almost became pope
Also if you Google landlibell you'll find out that the status of confederate states was not an act of subjugation, it was a military pact between Brixen,Trento and the County of tirol that practically established a unified military for the 3 places amongst other things but never touched autonomy
 
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The game simplifies things, and I think this is one of those cases it's acceptable. I wouldn't be angry or anything if they did add Trent as an independent state but I don't think of it as necessary or needed. Point of views.
 
The game simplifies things, and I think this is one of those cases it's acceptable. I wouldn't be angry or anything if they did add Trent as an independent state but I don't think of it as necessary or needed. Point of views.
I never said it is necessary, but it would be cool to see it added since it is historical and I live there, perhaps in an Italy based future expansion?
Also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_of_Masovia
This is about the Bishop in power in 1444, i think it better explains the situation so although later it should be independent in my opinion in 1444 the closest in game thing to the actual situation would be a march, which would hopefully let trento live at least until the counter reformation.
 
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