Proposal for Fixing of Yeren

[JKiller96]

UPDATED PROPOSAL. Thanks for all the new sources, here's the new draft. Note: Dughlat would still be Yarkand, Kharchin is still Khorchin, Oirat is still Oirat, Pegaya Orda should be much farther north and Tumed could be more to the east.

So as we all know "Yeren" is a made up country comprising various Tunguistic and Jurchen peoples.
Before the map changes, I want to state that the goal in mind is to buff Jianzhou (Jurchens who would form the Qing dynasty) as the current 3-way Yeren-Haixi-Jianzhou is very difficult and adding of the one country/splitting of Yeren would make an alliance for the player easier to achieve and maybe an earlier Qing empire. Definitely a larger one.

I did some very light reading and based changes on these two maps:

Spoiler: Source Maps

Special attention to the areas that say Daur/Daooria and "Gilyak"
These two regions and ethnic tribes are in perfect areas for the splitting of Yeren in two.

Jianzhou will be buffed by the addition of two provinces to help them along in the forming of Qing. Dauria will be the same strength or so with the addition of a province from Buryatia. Sakhalin will be split in two to show the difference in the Nivkh (Gilyak) North and the Ainu south. An addition province to the north for Gilyak to help balance the region a bit more. Gilyak and Dauria should not be able to form Manchu.
Historically, what will happen in games is
-Japan will end up taking South Sakhalin (As it was)
-Jianzhou will be boosted and will be the powerhouse in the region.
More historical area with more historical effect.

 

[JKiller96]

Another map showing that the Daur were in the area during EU4's timeframe. Here they are labeled DAGUUR

 

[AirikrStrife]

I have been looking into this a couple of times and there are some hard calls to make ocnsidering how tribal regions work.

I think Yeren should remain as a state in some way, Yeren is supposed to represent 'wild jurchens', you can wikipedia that. I agree daur should be a state but the suggested territory should be split between the daur and an evenki solon khanate. You are also giving the daurs too much territory from the buryats, and the Nivkhs (gilyaks) is far too powerful in your model. I've been advocating for a Nivkh state before limited to 2-3 provinces. It is also possible to add more tribal entities but then we need many more provinces in the region.

 

[JKiller96]

I would like to see Evenks represented as well. Buryatia is way too powerful at the moment and should be split with the Daurs. Maybe a Setsen Khanate in Korchin's north/Buryat east would be reasonable if the proposed ones are too large.

 

[Canute VII]

Simply splitting them into smaller entities empowers.... - Ming? No?

 

[JKiller96]

Simply splitting them into smaller entities empowers.... - Ming? No?

Not empowering, Dauria would have the same development as old Yeren and Jianzhou would be buffed. The only one that is a smaller entity is Gilyak. A buff to Jianzhou is a nerf to Ming, Gilyak will usually be food to Jianzhou and not Ming anyhow. If the nerf to Buryat seems like a ming buff then maybe they should get the province to the west of lake Baikal, that was Buryat land as well.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Setsen khanate seems to be in the wrong era and wrong location.

I don't think adding small states in the north will buffer the slow expanding Ming. Instead it would be a welcome addition to the horde gameplay.

I played a manchuria campaign and united manchuria in 1452, then sat for decades waiting for openings in my surrounding area while my horde unity decreased. More countries will give a better dynamics to the region. Possibilities for alternative states to rise as well. New countries I'd like to see, that said without removing existing ones is: nivkh(/gilyak), daur, solon khanate, western buryats/ude, kyrghyz. All of these bein clan councils though. If they add a lot more provinces more smaller tribal nations could easily be added. For example a third province in sakhalin, a couple of opm's in the ussuri region

I worked a lot on the forum and in modding for an expanded siberia. And these suggestions only concern manchuria/mongolia, but I do have more suggestions for the rest of siberia.

Footnote: western buryats west of lake baikal were politically seperated from their eastern counterparts but that said still strong enough to deserve it's own state. It was conquered by the russians after fierce battling.

 

[JKiller96]

Setsen khanate seems to be in the wrong era and wrong location.

I don't think adding small states in the north will buffer the slow expanding Ming. Instead it would be a welcome addition to the horde gameplay.

I played a manchuria campaign and united manchuria in 1452, then sat for decades waiting for openings in my surrounding area while my horde unity decreased. More countries will give a better dynamics to the region. Possibilities for alternative states to rise as well. New countries I'd like to see, that said without removing existing ones is: nivkh(/gilyak), daur, solon khanate, western buryats/ude, kyrghyz. All of these bein clan councils though. If they add a lot more provinces more smaller tribal nations could easily be added. For example a third province in sakhalin, a couple of opm's in the ussuri region

I worked a lot on the forum and in modding for an expanded siberia. And these suggestions only concern manchuria/mongolia, but I do have more suggestions for the rest of siberia.

Footnote: western buryats west of lake baikal were politically seperated from their eastern counterparts but that said still strong enough to deserve it's own state. It was conquered by the russians after fierce battling.

I know they won't slow down Ming, the point is to buff the already present Manchus as they have a hard time competing on this patch

 

[AirikrStrife]

I know they won't slow down Ming, the point is to buff the already present Manchus as they have a hard time competing on this patch

The statement about Ming was in reference to another post claming that more small nations wold only benefit Ming empire, something I found doubtful.

 

[JKiller96]

The statement about Ming was in reference to another post claming that more small nations wold only benefit Ming empire, something I found doubtful.

Ohhhhh I see, sorry. Good point though, Manchu is easily united very early. Which is fine but theres usually no where to go after that, it's just waiting to pounce on Ming. Let Manchu snack on some tasty clan councils.

 

[Dutchman251]

Well, if you've united Manchuria, than you should be able to take on Ming with an ally like Uzbeks/Oirat. If you manage to go at them while they are one tech behind, you'll slaughter their armies, even though they will be way more numerous. 'Unable to beat Ming' is no sufficient reason to add new states

 

[JKiller96]

Well, if you've united Manchuria, than you should be able to take on Ming with an ally like Uzbeks/Oirat. If you manage to go at them while they are one tech behind, you'll slaughter their armies, even though they will be way more numerous. 'Unable to beat Ming' is no sufficient reason to add new states

It's not the only reason or did I say it was.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Adding new states is about flavour and detail. Just like paradox cut the original manchurian state into three new statesin art of war i think.

Done some more research and currently in favour of adding some more state in the amur-ussuri region like a nanai clan council

 

[Warial]

There's a lot of possible tribes in the area. Your Dauria is a tad too big. Solons (Daurs and Solon Evenki) didn't expand that far west until 17th century. Nanais (Heje) could be added in the middle of Amur. Another three major Yeren tribes: Warka, Hurha and Woji (Woje); could be added, but then Jianzhou would be heavily weakened.

 

[FleetingRain]

Could those new tribes (Daur etc) form... Yeren?

 

[Warial]

Could those new tribes (Daur etc) form... Yeren?

Yeren is not even a real state, just a general term for those tribes used by Chinese.

 

[JKiller96]

Could those new tribes (Daur etc) form... Yeren?

I can see them forming Manchuria but as a result of the decision there would be a culture shift?

 

[AirikrStrife]

Not really. It depends a bit on how we solve the issue of culture and culture groups. Daur should appear as a mongolian culture. Nivkh should probably get together with kamchatkan and ainu.

If we add any new culture for nanai or other tribes they should probably stick with the poorly named evenki culture group. The solon khanate should have tungus culture and be the primary tag for that culture as there is none right now.

I would rather prefer have the great mongol empire as a formable nation, avaible to all altaic and tatar culturenations

 

[Warial]

Why do you guys separate Daurs from Solons? They have been living together in an unique relationship for as long as we know. The so-called Solon Khanate was a state of both Daurs and Evenks and Bombogor who led them against Cossacks was of uncertain origin.

Nanais most certainly should be in the same group as Manchu. They are their closest kin and grew distant for each other only later when Jurchens (later Manchus) moved further south and Evenks (Solons, Oroqen, other groups) filled the emptied land.

 

[FleetingRain]

I made a thing.

Nanai: 8 dev
Orochi: 14 dev
Solon: 22 dev
Nivkh: 25 dev
Haixi: 58 dev
Jianzhou: 67 dev

I'm sick so I didn't went too far in my research. Nivkh's there since before due to some talks I had with AirikrStrife (this is a personal mod etc), so they also have a couple provinces and Sakhalin has been split.

I also utterly hate Hulunbuir (Korchin's biggest province) and I feel it should be divided. Maybe half to Korchin and the other half to Solon. Then Nanai gets Udi instead (what even is Udi anyway?).

Not sure I like Haiilanboo (Solon's southernmost one) either. Maybe it could be Nanai's, or maybe it could be split. I don't know, I'm really bad at looking at old maps.