Proposal for Fixing of Yeren

[JKiller96]

UPDATED PROPOSAL. Thanks for all the new sources, here's the new draft. Note: Dughlat would still be Yarkand, Kharchin is still Khorchin, Oirat is still Oirat, Pegaya Orda should be much farther north and Tumed could be more to the east.

So as we all know "Yeren" is a made up country comprising various Tunguistic and Jurchen peoples.
Before the map changes, I want to state that the goal in mind is to buff Jianzhou (Jurchens who would form the Qing dynasty) as the current 3-way Yeren-Haixi-Jianzhou is very difficult and adding of the one country/splitting of Yeren would make an alliance for the player easier to achieve and maybe an earlier Qing empire. Definitely a larger one.

I did some very light reading and based changes on these two maps:

Spoiler: Source Maps

Special attention to the areas that say Daur/Daooria and "Gilyak"
These two regions and ethnic tribes are in perfect areas for the splitting of Yeren in two.

Jianzhou will be buffed by the addition of two provinces to help them along in the forming of Qing. Dauria will be the same strength or so with the addition of a province from Buryatia. Sakhalin will be split in two to show the difference in the Nivkh (Gilyak) North and the Ainu south. An addition province to the north for Gilyak to help balance the region a bit more. Gilyak and Dauria should not be able to form Manchu.
Historically, what will happen in games is
-Japan will end up taking South Sakhalin (As it was)
-Jianzhou will be boosted and will be the powerhouse in the region.
More historical area with more historical effect.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I made a revamped map considering the new maps and opinions going around, a gave a new try at the map this time encopassing all of the Mongol-Manchu areas.

Pegaya Orda (Skewbald Horde) in the west,.

Should Tumed really have that much tibetan territory? I gather Sarig Yugir should exist in 1444 (but culture should be changed to Uyghur)

Then Pegaya Orda, despite the fact that they have a province conveniently named that way is too far south. I would have it moved up to the three provinces north of there you put them (yes, reduce the size of the Shaybanids).

And I think the Kyrgyz is a relevant addition to the game, they should possibly start as a march/vassal to Oirats but they should start as a nation with they own culture.

I probably wouldn't let Solon expend that far north, I don't think the manchurian lands should go farther north then they do in game.

If we don't keep Oroqen as an idenependent state a la Fleetingrains proposal I think all of it's provinces should belong to the Solon Khanate. Yeren should solely represent the following 6 people: Negidal, Oroch, Udege, Nanai, Ulchi and Orok. Oroqen should either be their own state or go together with the Solons.

Buryats could get one more province in the west, the one straight over Irkutsk.

Koshut should rather be a formable nation for Mongolians conquering Tibet. Could give some sort of bonus like controling a Lama or something.

Do we need the Dughlat? At least are they vassals to Moghulistan?

 

[AirikrStrife]

I want to say that I'm sorry for nitpicking so much throughout the thread. I've spent so long time on researching the region of Siberia, Mongolia and Manchuria for 1356-1630 for M&T mod and I never had anyone to share with, since most players don't care about the region at all.

Too bad you never saw my previous threads on Siberia. It's focused on Uralic peoples and a bit outdated. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/tribes-of-the-midnight-land.891056/

and then a longer thread made by FleetingRain
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improve-the-siberian-natives.888304/

 

[JKiller96]

Should Tumed really have that much tibetan territory? I gather Sarig Yugir should exist in 1444 (but culture should be changed to Uyghur)

Then Pegaya Orda, despite the fact that they have a province conveniently named that way is too far south. I would have it moved up to the three provinces north of there you put them (yes, reduce the size of the Shaybanids).

And I think the Kyrgyz is a relevant addition to the game, they should possibly start as a march/vassal to Oirats but they should start as a nation with they own culture.

I probably wouldn't let Solon expend that far north, I don't think the manchurian lands should go farther north then they do in game.

If we don't keep Oroqen as an idenependent state a la Fleetingrains proposal I think all of it's provinces should belong to the Solon Khanate. Yeren should solely represent the following 6 people: Negidal, Oroch, Udege, Nanai, Ulchi and Orok. Oroqen should either be their own state or go together with the Solons.

Buryats could get one more province in the west, the one straight over Irkutsk.

Koshut should rather be a formable nation for Mongolians conquering Tibet. Could give some sort of bonus like controling a Lama or something.

Do we need the Dughlat? At least are they vassals to Moghulistan?

Pegaya Orda literally means "Skewbald Horde" the name for the tribal nation that was there. At the time they were fighting the Russians they stretched from where they are in the map to as south as the Narym province or so.
Dughlat is pretty much just Yarkand, I don't care if it stays Yarkand, they really should be vassals of Moghulistan at the start though.

I wouldn't have Solon that far north but current provinces are so large in the area that its hard to get an exact location, that's the best and easiest without making more.

It can be Oroqen or Yeren I don't mind. Im all for different kinds of Mongol formables. Mongolia or Zungaria for non-syncretist Tengris or just for Oirat, maybe certain other religions, Khoshut for Vajrayana, Yuan for Tengri-confucian and confucians. Sort of like Indian nations, that would be amazing.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Pegaya Orda literally means "Skewbald Horde" the name for the tribal nation that was there. At the time they were fighting the Russians they stretched from where they are in the map to as south as the Narym province or so.
Dughlat is pretty much just Yarkand, I don't care if it stays Yarkand, they really should be vassals of Moghulistan at the start though.

I wouldn't have Solon that far north but current provinces are so large in the area that its hard to get an exact location, that's the best and easiest without making more.

It can be Oroqen or Yeren I don't mind. Im all for different kinds of Mongol formables. Mongolia or Zungaria for non-syncretist Tengris or just for Oirat, maybe certain other religions, Khoshut for Vajrayana, Yuan for Tengri-confucian and confucians. Sort of like Indian nations, that would be amazing.

My claim is that the province, pegaya orda is wrongly named and too far south. The province Ket farther north is named after the river Ket and the second russian fortress established on Selkup territory called Ketskiy Okrug. The first russian settlement on Selkup land was Narym. Thereb however the province named that way is way too far north. The settlement was along the Ob river, just north of the Ket.The selkup homeland is spread out around the Ob and it's tributaries Ket, Tym, Parabel and Chulym.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Siberiariverroutemap.png

The province which should be Selkup should approximately be: Agan, Ket, Vah.

If anything the current province Pegaya Orda should be renamed Tomsk, as the current province Tomsk is too far north.

 

[Warial]

the Tumed should DEFINITELY have cores on those provinces as a bit later after the start (1460's?) The Tumed become especially influential in the region. But to show the Oirat dominance should belong to the Yuan.

Mongols on the Gansu-Kökenuur (modern Qinghai) frontier under the YUAN DYNASTY (1206/71–1368) submitted to the Ming (1368–1644) after 1368. They became the predecessors of the Yogur and Tu (Monguor) nationalities. The modern “Upper Mongols” stem from the Mongols and OIRATS who invaded Kökenuur in the 16th and 17th centuries. The first invasions began in 1509 with refugees from BATU-MÖNGKE DAYAN KHAN’s unification of the Mongols. From 1559 to 1586 princes of the ORDOS and TÜMED Mongols invaded Kökenuur, subjugating the local Tibetan nomads and vastly increasing their followings.

After 1374 the Yellow Uighurs, then nomadizing in yurts and raising CAMELS, HORSES, CATTLE, and SHEEP in the Subei-Aksay-Tsaidam areas, surrendered to the MING DYNASTY and were organized into the Anding, Aduan, Quxian, and Handong guards. The first ruler of the Yellow Uighurs in the Anding guard was a Chinggisid prince, Buyan-Temür. Meanwhile, the Chigil Mongol
guard nomadized around modern Yumen. All these nomads were Buddhist, and the Chigil Mongols generously patronized Tibetan lamas (see NORTHERN YUAN DYNASTY). From 1472 to 1528 attacks from the Islamic Chinggisid state of MOGHULISTAN drove the Yellow Uighur and Chigil Mongol guards east to the mountains south of Suzhou (modern Jiuquan) and Ganzhou.
From 1542 to 1596 ORDOS and TÜMED Mongols of Inner Mongolia subdued most of the Yellow Uighurs as part of their advance into Kökenuur.

As you can see, Tumed subjugation of Qinghai started a century after the game start.

Should Tumed really have that much tibetan territory? I gather Sarig Yugir should exist in 1444 (but culture should be changed to Uyghur)

Cultural setup of the area is pretty murky because both Turkic tribes and Mongolic tribes lived in close proximity to each other. Though, I favour creating a new culture for the area. Either Yughur or Old Uyghur since in contrast to Uyghurs of Tarim Basin they retained their separate language, religion and identity stemming from the Uyghur Khaganate.

 

[Warial]

My claim is that the province, pegaya orda is wrongly named and too far south. The province Ket farther north is named after the river Ket and the second russian fortress established on Selkup territory called Ketskiy Okrug. The first russian settlement on Selkup land was Narym. Thereb however the province named that way is way too far north. The settlement was along the Ob river, just north of the Ket.The selkup homeland is spread out around the Ob and it's tributaries Ket, Tym, Parabel and Chulym.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Siberiariverroutemap.png

The province which should be Selkup should approximately be: Agan, Ket, Vah.

If anything the current province Pegaya Orda should be renamed Tomsk, as the current province Tomsk is too far north.

Agreed. The area of current Pegaya Orda was populated by Turkic tribes.

For those unfamiliar with the area I present two maps from this book.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

I don't know almost anything about the region's history in the game's timeframe(I've only been reading on Central Asian nomads recently) but shouldn't Northern Yuan just keep on being called Mongolia just for the sake of tag's universal name?

 

[FleetingRain]

Can't contribute much right now, just want to say that Dughlat should still be Yarkand and controlled by Moghulistan, only "rebelling" a couple decades later. That is, Yarkand should be a dead nation.

And Pegaya Orda should be somewhere to the east of Sibir, not that far south.

 

[JKiller96]

Can't contribute much right now, just want to say that Dughlat should still be Yarkand and controlled by Moghulistan, only "rebelling" a couple decades later. That is, Yarkand should be a dead nation.

And Pegaya Orda should be somewhere to the east of Sibir, not that far south.

Pegaya Orda streched as far south as Narym. Unless Narym is in the wrong location, it should be OKAY. I know that it is east of Sibir and north of Narym. I don't really care where it's added as long as it is, really. I don't think we should nit-pick so much. Just trying to improve the area.

 

[Warial]

Pegaya Orda streched as far south as Narym. Unless Narym is in the wrong location, it should be OKAY. I know that it is east of Sibir and north of Narym. I don't really care where it's added as long as it is, really. I don't think we should nit-pick so much. Just trying to improve the area.

Well, it's your mod. I'll only add that Narym is in the Ket province (and not Narim or Pegaya Orda provinces) and by your own logic Pegaya Orda should be moved north. Compare the maps I posted with in-game provinces. and you will see.

 

[JKiller96]

Yes Pegaya Orda should be much farther north. The names of the provinces in the area are horribly misnamed. Its also a bit difficult to relay from one map to another certain regions and countries

 

[Wudadi]

Yes Pegaya Orda should be much farther north. The names of the provinces in the area are horribly misnamed. Its also a bit difficult to relay from one map to another certain regions and countries

You need add more provinces in North Asian, it's unfear for them. Cause PDX game is a province game more provinces = more powerful(more buff). In history, Manchu occupy Korea twice, but in this game korea occupy Jianzhou everytime.

 

[Wudadi]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/z...A72hkd2-Cqw270hQXucPMleLazg=w1920-h1080-rw-no

 

[Wudadi]

year 1582

year 1600

year 1637

@JKiller96 Your map is wrong about Tumed & Ordos & Khoshut....(if the map is in 1444). As you know Ming's map became more and more small from 1368-1644

 

[Warial]

year 1582

year 1600

year 1637

@JKiller96 Your map is wrong about Tumed & Ordos & Khoshut....(if the map is in 1444). As you know Ming's map became more and more small from 1368-1644

Those are not original Liucheng1972's maps, am I right? I can't find them on his blog (and I would like to have them in a bigger resolution).

 

[JKiller96]

I remember reading Ming never really controlled Yumen. Who would that go to?

 

[Warial]

I remember reading Ming never really controlled Yumen. Who would that go to?

I'm not sure about 'never' since Ming did have military garrisons beyond the Yumen Pass. Many areas portray the area to be under Chinese direct, or indirect, control until around Tumu crisis. Then it passes to first Oirat and later Turfan control in 1516.