Proposal for Fixing of Yeren

[JKiller96]

UPDATED PROPOSAL. Thanks for all the new sources, here's the new draft. Note: Dughlat would still be Yarkand, Kharchin is still Khorchin, Oirat is still Oirat, Pegaya Orda should be much farther north and Tumed could be more to the east.

So as we all know "Yeren" is a made up country comprising various Tunguistic and Jurchen peoples.
Before the map changes, I want to state that the goal in mind is to buff Jianzhou (Jurchens who would form the Qing dynasty) as the current 3-way Yeren-Haixi-Jianzhou is very difficult and adding of the one country/splitting of Yeren would make an alliance for the player easier to achieve and maybe an earlier Qing empire. Definitely a larger one.

I did some very light reading and based changes on these two maps:

Spoiler: Source Maps

Special attention to the areas that say Daur/Daooria and "Gilyak"
These two regions and ethnic tribes are in perfect areas for the splitting of Yeren in two.

Jianzhou will be buffed by the addition of two provinces to help them along in the forming of Qing. Dauria will be the same strength or so with the addition of a province from Buryatia. Sakhalin will be split in two to show the difference in the Nivkh (Gilyak) North and the Ainu south. An addition province to the north for Gilyak to help balance the region a bit more. Gilyak and Dauria should not be able to form Manchu.
Historically, what will happen in games is
-Japan will end up taking South Sakhalin (As it was)
-Jianzhou will be boosted and will be the powerhouse in the region.
More historical area with more historical effect.

 

[JKiller96]

I made a thing.

Nanai: 8 dev
Orochi: 14 dev
Solon: 22 dev
Nivkh: 25 dev
Haixi: 58 dev
Jianzhou: 67 dev

I'm sick so I didn't went too far in my research. Nivkh's there since before due to some talks I had with AirikrStrife (this is a personal mod etc), so they also have a couple provinces and Sakhalin has been split.

I also utterly hate Hulunbuir (Korchin's biggest province) and I feel it should be divided. Maybe half to Korchin and the other half to Solon. Then Nanai gets Udi instead (what even is Udi anyway?).

Not sure I like Haiilanboo (Solon's southernmost one) either. Maybe it could be Nanai's, or maybe it could be split. I don't know, I'm really bad at looking at old maps.

I like it. I personally hate how east the Buryats go, I'd rather have Solon have it's easternmost province and give buryats irkutsk. I'm sure there's some Mongol state that would fit within the borders of Hulunbuir that was in the area around the time. Gorlos Mongols? Jalair/Jalaids? The Chahar/Chakhar? Any of those can fill that area. Khorchin is definitely too large.

 

[Warial]

I like it. I personally hate how east the Buryats go, I'd rather have Solon have it's easternmost province and give buryats irkutsk. I'm sure there's some Mongol state that would fit within the borders of Hulunbuir that was in the area around the time. Gorlos Mongols? Jalair/Jalaids? The Chahar/Chakhar? Any of those can fill that area. Khorchin is definitely too large.

Gorlos were insignificant and Jalairids were part of Khalkha. Chakhars on the other hand should own territories between Khorchin and Ming.

 

[FleetingRain]

Oh yeah, Chahar, totally forgot them. They could occupy the three southernmost Korchin provinces (Chengde, Chahar and Jirem) I guess.

 

[Warial]

Another nitpick. Orochs call themselves Nani, which is extremely close to the endonyms of their closest neighbours Heje (Nanai). It is likely that they were one people until relatively recently. This is also collaborated by the fact that Orochs don't appear in any Chinese documents of the era, while others like Nanai and Udege do.

My proposal would be to unite Nanai and Orochi (this would also make the area more balanced dev-wise). Otherwise it would be a good idea to create a tag for Udege.

Edit: oh and if you want to compare how Manchuria was done in other mods, then apart from M&T I recommend this mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=637298044. The guy went a bit overboard with historicity, but it may give you an idea or two how Jurchens were disunited. And I recommended M&T because it's the area I worked on personally.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Gorlos were insignificant and Jalairids were part of Khalkha. Chakhars on the other hand should own territories between Khorchin and Ming.

Now that is s pretty nice map Where is it from?

 

[Warial]

Now that is s pretty nice map Where is it from?

Christopher P. Atwood, Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire . Atwood is a pretty know name when it comes to Mongol studies, so I believe he can be trusted. And the book is freely available on his academia.edu page.

EDIT: Oh, and guys. If you want to also improve the dynamics of Mongolia, then I propose to give Ordos and Tumed plain to Tumed Mongols. They were the most powerful and influential tribe of Right-wing Mongols and contender for power with Khalkha and Chakhar.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I don't see Nanai and Orochen being that big, they both extend over far too large territory, outside their historical territory. James Forsyth in his book on siberian history gives the population of the Nanai (in the 19th century) to be just above 5000. And they were one of the larger tribes of the Amur region. The Nivkhs he considered at about the same numbers. Usually gathered at quite small territory which was also multi ethnical and to higher or lesser degree paying tribute to the jurchen/manchus.

On the other hand a second major tribal entity which might fill up the middle amur would be the Duchers. Which is a ball throw into the game very late because frankly, the whole region is a god damn mess and I overlooked them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchers

Forsyth, as quoted in the wikipedia article, number the population to 14000.

For the lower amur tribes I would suggest OPM's for the Nanai's and the Udege's.

And quite frankly, working around the massive blocks of provinces that paradox gives in the region makes it hard. A new map would be nice. It was a rich region which deserves some more love. The Nivkh's, only 5000, were trading the the chinese, the koreans (probably the japanese as well) and the jurchens. They got guns and learned metalwork. I think Amur estuary as a trade estuary could be in place.

Definitly thumbs up for Tumed Mongols. I suggested it before. And rename their culture. It's terrible to have Mongolian as a small culture together with Chahar and Khalka and Oirat.

Furthermore I don't know what to do with middle Sakhalin. north Nivkh, south Ainu is fine, but middle was populated by Orok ppl, Forsyth gives population to about 750 persons which is way too little to call for a state of their own.

Talking culture. I get Warial's point about not splitting Ewenki and Daur. Solon Khanate did not rule all Daur or Ewenki's of the Amur region and thus splitting it into two states along those two lines I saw reasonable but calling the ewenkis Solon because it was easy and to just call the Daur Dauria or something like that.

 

[Warial]

I don't see Nanai and Orochen being that big, they both extend over far too large territory, outside their historical territory. James Forsyth in his book on siberian history gives the population of the Nanai (in the 19th century) to be just above 5000. And they were one of the larger tribes of the Amur region. The Nivkhs he considered at about the same numbers. Usually gathered at quite small territory which was also multi ethnical and to higher or lesser degree paying tribute to the jurchen/manchus.

I would take the population estimates for 19th century with a grain of salt. Don't forget that many Daurs and Evenkis were included into New Manchu banners after the rise of Qing. Being part of banners they were moved to other region controlled by Manchu and so their numbers in Manchuria dwindled.

On the other hand a second major tribal entity which might fill up the middle amur would be the Duchers. Which is a ball throw into the game very late because frankly, the whole region is a god damn mess and I overlooked them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchers

Forsyth, as quoted in the wikipedia article, number the population to 14000.

Personally, I'm more inclined to agree with the theory that Ducher is a corruption of Jucen. The more thorough Ming and especially Qing records don't mention any separate Ducher group. We also have to remember that Jurchens weren't a monolithic group. They included not only descendants of Tungusic Mohe, but also assimilated Bohai, Korean and Chinese populations. Some groups were more mongolised than others, while some had more in common with Nivkhs and Evenks. There were also populations which remained in modern Jilin from the times of Jin dynasty, the jurchen proper, as opposed to those who migrated from Amur during late 14th and 15th centuries.

Talking culture. I get Warial's point about not splitting Ewenki and Daur. Solon Khanate did not rule all Daur or Ewenki's of the Amur region and thus splitting it into two states along those two lines I saw reasonable but calling the ewenkis Solon because it was easy and to just call the Daur Dauria or something like that.

The problem with Evenki is that they are very diverse people living throughout most of Siberia. Solon Khanate ruled over Daurs and Solon Evenki, living along Amur river up to Shilka-Argun confluence. Further we have Mongolized Khammigan Evenki who were conquered for a short time by Solons in 16th century. Back in Manchuria we have Oroqen Evenki living in the neighbourhood of Stanovoi Mountains.

 

[FleetingRain]

So, would it be something like this (besides a possible map redrawing)? Kyrgyz to the west, another Buryat tribe beside Buryatia, Solon for Daur+Solon Evenki people, Oroqen and Nanai, then Nivkh by the coast and Chahar and Tumed below Mongolia.

I also have a feeling it would be better to have a Mongolian culture group with Khalkha, Buryat, Oirat, Chahar and Ordos as cultures.

 

[Warial]

Tumed are too small. Basically you gave them the territory of Ordos Mongols, who werealso Right-wing and in close partnership with Tumed. You should also give them the 2 neighbouring provinces to the west and optionally the one from the west (especially after Esen's death).

When it comes to Buryats, I would switch them around and have Buryatia along Angara river and the rest of provinces given to Barga Mongols.

The rest look more or less good to me. However, for perfect experience you will have to redraw the map a lot.

BTW, how much territory you granted to Yenisei Kirgiz? Also did you give them a separate culture? They speak a different language than Kyrgystani Kirgiz and are direct descendants of Kirgiz Khanate, while Kyrgystani are closer to neighbouring Khazaks and Uzbeks.

 

[AirikrStrife]

BTW, how much territory you granted to Yenisei Kirgiz? Also did you give them a separate culture? They speak a different language than Kyrgystani Kirgiz and are direct descendants of Kirgiz Khanate, while Kyrgystani are closer to neighbouring Khazaks and Uzbeks.

The best deal would be that the Kyrgyz culture provinces in Jeetysu should be changed to a new Chagatai culture (or mongol). It's really weird that the Chagatai/Moghulistan Khanate have Kyrgyz as main culture.

Also Kyrgyz should as a culture be used to represent all siberian turkic groups, inlcuding Shors, Tuvans and Altais. Seeing Tuva and Altai have Buryat culture is really strange.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I'm thinking that Nanai could be better named with something more including to all the tribes the tag would represent. First of I think central Sakhalin should belong to this Amur state thus being a state in core made up of six different peoples: Negidal, Ulchi, Nanai, Orok, Oroch and Udege.

The two main suggestions for name I have, also tied in to which culture they should get is:

Yeren: Keep the tag and possible even the culture. Would be the easiest solution programwise. From reading (mainly wikipedia) the chinese would include these peoples in the terminology of wild Jurchens. In terms of culture they're very close to the manchus but more primitive technology and statewise (Yeren would have to change to a siberian clan council)

Yupi Dazi: Meaning Fishskin Tatars and is another chinese name forthe people living in outher manchuria. If this would be the choosen name I think they should get their own culture as well. Either call the culture something like Yupi Dazi or simply 'Amur'

 

[FleetingRain]

Tumed are too small. Basically you gave them the territory of Ordos Mongols, who werealso Right-wing and in close partnership with Tumed. You should also give them the 2 neighbouring provinces to the west and optionally the one from the west (especially after Esen's death).

Which provinces? Alxa and Ningxia, I'd reckon? And you said west twice.

When it comes to Buryats, I would switch them around and have Buryatia along Angara river and the rest of provinces given to Barga Mongols.

But why's that, exactly? I know there were buryat people on both sides of Lake Baikal. The only big difference I know for them is the religion (specially after the Russians appeared), but I don't know if those Barga mongols add anything new either.

The rest look more or less good to me. However, for perfect experience you will have to redraw the map a lot.

Yeah, that's something I'm not too keen on trying right now, but mostly because of my lack of sources. Besides, any suggestion would end up mostly a mock-up as the devs would have the final word.

BTW, how much territory you granted to Yenisei Kirgiz? Also did you give them a separate culture? They speak a different language than Kyrgystani Kirgiz and are direct descendants of Kirgiz Khanate, while Kyrgystani are closer to neighbouring Khazaks and Uzbeks.

I basically did what AirikrStrife said. Changed the Jeetysu area to Chagatai culture and changed Sayan (1063), Tannu Uriankhai (716) and Altai Uriankhai (1066) to Kyrgyz.

Yeren: Keep the tag and possible even the culture. Would be the easiest solution programwise. From reading (mainly wikipedia) the chinese would include these peoples in the terminology of wild Jurchens. In terms of culture they're very close to the manchus but more primitive technology and statewise (Yeren would have to change to a siberian clan council)

Yupi Dazi: Meaning Fishskin Tatars and is another chinese name forthe people living in outher manchuria. If this would be the choosen name I think they should get their own culture as well. Either call the culture something like Yupi Dazi or simply 'Amur'

Well I'm not too hot on keeping Yeren united but having any tags there (except Solon) as SCCs is good enough to me, and if it were to be only one tag+Nivkh then yeah, I'd keep Yeren.

 

[Warial]

Which provinces? Alxa and Ningxia, I'd reckon? And you said west twice.

Sorry, I meant two provinces to the north. The one to the west is Alxa.

But why's that, exactly? I know there were buryat people on both sides of Lake Baikal. The only big difference I know for them is the religion (specially after the Russians appeared), but I don't know if those Barga mongols add anything new either.

I only proposed this because you decided to split Buryats into two. Generally I would keep them as one because they didn't really do much. They fought along Oirats against Mongols together, they were also more keen on keeping shamanism. The Buryats who were more Buddhist were precisely Barga, but that's because they migrated towards south and had more contact with Mongols.

I basically did what AirikrStrife said. Changed the Jeetysu area to Chagatai culture and changed Sayan (1063), Tannu Uriankhai (716) and Altai Uriankhai (1066) to Kyrgyz.

Well, for gameplay reasons it should be good. The area of Altai is diverse culturally and mostly Turkic, so having them Khirgiz is optimal I guess.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Well I'm not too hot on keeping Yeren united but having any tags there (except Solon) as SCCs is good enough to me, and if it were to be only one tag+Nivkh then yeah, I'd keep Yeren.

I think Solon should be SSC. Especially this early on in the history. Wariankal might have better sources on early Solon though.

I think Yeren is as good a name as any. Nanai is decent because at least a few tribes used more or less that word on themselves and it didn't really refer strictly to what we now know as Nanai people. As I read it Nanai or variation simply meant "People of the Land" and besides referring to themselves like that they would use the clan or general area as point of reference. I still think we could give a name which catches the whole groups of ppl better. Both Yeren and Yupi Dazi being exonyms but generally a more catch 'em al term.

That said I don't want Yeren to be very reminiscent of the old state and only be madeup of the provinces you has denoted as Nanai in your map + the middle sakhalin province. (perhaps give them a historical friendship modifier with Nivkh, doesn't seem to be out of place)

 

[AirikrStrife]

Btw Onan Gol? What's gonna happen to that? Can stay with Korchin but perhaps a bit awekward with Buryat culture.

 

[Krebsig]

So, would it be something like this (besides a possible map redrawing)? Kyrgyz to the west, another Buryat tribe beside Buryatia, Solon for Daur+Solon Evenki people, Oroqen and Nanai, then Nivkh by the coast and Chahar and Tumed below Mongolia.

I also have a feeling it would be better to have a Mongolian culture group with Khalkha, Buryat, Oirat, Chahar and Ordos as cultures.

I really like that. A complete East Asia/Oceania province rework needs to happen imho - Japan, Oceania and Austrialia need some more love as well.

 

[JKiller96]

I made a revamped map considering the new maps and opinions going around, a gave a new try at the map this time encopassing all of the Mongol-Manchu areas.

Pegaya Orda (Skewbald Horde) in the west, a Koshut tribe (So maybe they can actually conquer Tibet, although I know there is a Khoshut tag in game that can be used) expanded Khalkhas (AKA the Yuan, which I suggest could be a candidate to form a new Chinese dynasty like Restore the Yuan decision like the Qing) Buryats moved to the west to make room for the Solon/Daurs, Khorchin split into Kharchin in the north and Chakhar/Chahar in the south, and a reduced Yeren to represent the disparate tribes, and Nivkh. Some land taken from Ming to give the Ordos and Tumed representation (Although they could be vassals as at certain points they sweared fealty to the Ming, but many of the members of the tribes remained pretty independent)

BUT at this time I know the Oirats were pretty dominant so maybe Yuan could receive a personal union under Oirat instead of a vassalship and a HISTORICAL FRIEND with oirat until the death of Esen Taishi. Upon the death of Esen, Oirats should continue to be ruled under Amasanj and the Yuan perhaps Alag (with the Borjigin dynasty) the represent the rift between the two after Esen's death.

 

[Warial]

I want to say that I'm sorry for nitpicking so much throughout the thread. I've spent so long time on researching the region of Siberia, Mongolia and Manchuria for 1356-1630 for M&T mod and I never had anyone to share with, since most players don't care about the region at all.

That said, here are my comments:

• Solons go a bit too far north, but I guess it's the matter of how province borders are setup, so it's not a big issue.
• I'm not sure why did you split Khorchin into Chakhar and Kharachin. Chakhars are in a good place, but Kharachin are entirely wrong. You gave them areas controlled by Khorchin, while Kharachin were a subverient tribe of Yongshiebu Tumen and Tumed Mongols (the area between Ordos and Chakhar on your map). You can consult the map I posted above for their location. Here's what Atwood (2004, 304) writes about them:

  Meanwhile, the Kharachin, descendants of the MONGOL EMPIRE’s Qipchaq guards (see QIPCHAQS), formed part of the Yüngshiyebü Tümen (see SIX TÜMENS), inhabiting present-day Chakhar territory. Around 1600 Kharachin migrating east merged with the Uriyangkhan Mongols. Submitting to the Manchu QING DYNASTY in 1626, this mixed people was organized into three Kharachin BANNERS (appanages) in Josotu league, each ruled by a ruler of the old Uriyangkhan lineage.

• Ordos/Tumed. I wouldn't divide them for one reason, they were along with Yongshiebu always allied to each other. Altan Khan of Tumed was a jinong of all three Western Tumens. Another thing is that Tumed conquered Kökenuur only after 1524. Previously it was ruled by Yughurs under nominal overlordship of China. And as I mentioned before Western Tumens controlled whole Inner Manchuria west of Xilin Gol.
• About Khoshuuts, they didn't even exist in 1444. Here's what Atwood (2004, 310) has to say on them:
  

  The Khoshud were most likely formed from diverse THREE GUARDS Mongols deported by the Oirat ruler ESEN (r. 1438–54) in 1446–47. The Khoshud first appeared in the 1580s and by the 1620s were the most powerful Oirat tribe, taking the lead in the SECOND CONVERSION of the Oirats to Buddhism. In 1636 TÖRÖ-BAIKHU GÜÜSHI KHAN led many Khoshuds to occupy Kökenuur; the Khoshuds from the great majority of the Tibetan plateau’s almost 80,000 UPPER MONGOLS. About 10 years later his brother Köndölöng Ubashi migrated to the Volga, joining the KALMYKS. Many Khoshuds remained in the Oirat homeland of Zungharia under Ochirtu Tsetsen Khan (fl. 1639–76).

• In 1444 the Khan of Northern Yuan was basically a puppet of Oirat Taishi and Khalkha were heavily weakened. Giving so much territory when the next Khaan was a puppet of Tumeds and Khorchin is a bit questionable.

(Although they could be vassals as at certain points they sweared fealty to the Ming, but many of the members of the tribes remained pretty independent)

Making Tumeds and Ordos vassals of Ming would be terribly ahistorical, because their fealty was entirely nominal. Altan Khan basically forced Chinese to restart trade and embassies with the threats of raiding border regions. Ming had no choice, but to trade substantial amounts of silk and other luxurious goods in exchange for Mongol horses.

Upon the death of Esen, Oirats should continue to be ruled under Amasanj and the Yuan perhaps Alag (with the Borjigin dynasty) the represent the rift between the two after Esen's death.

Alag? Who do you mean precisely?

Here are the territories under influence of Tumeds (blue) and Chakhar (orange) circa 1444. Tumed might look strong, but we have to remember that the two westernmost provinces are barely populated deserts. Ordos was controlled by Ordos Mongols, the easternmost provinces by Yongshiebu Mongols and the provinces to the west and encompassing Ordos by Tumeds. In 1444 all Mongol states should be subverient Oirats and should declare independence with Esen's death.

 

[JKiller96]

I want to say that I'm sorry for nitpicking so much throughout the thread. I've spent so long time on researching the region of Siberia, Mongolia and Manchuria for 1356-1630 for M&T mod and I never had anyone to share with, since most players don't care about the region at all.

That said, here are my comments:

• Solons go a bit too far north, but I guess it's the matter of how province borders are setup, so it's not a big issue.
• I'm not sure why did you split Khorchin into Chakhar and Kharachin. Chakhars are in a good place, but Kharachin are entirely wrong. You gave them areas controlled by Khorchin, while Kharachin were a subverient tribe of Yongshiebu Tumen and Tumed Mongols (the area between Ordos and Chakhar on your map). You can consult the map I posted above for their location. Here's what Atwood (2004, 304) writes about them:
• Ordos/Tumed. I wouldn't divide them for one reason, they were along with Yongshiebu always allied to each other. Altan Khan of Tumed was a jinong of all three Western Tumens. Another thing is that Tumed conquered Kökenuur only after 1524. Previously it was ruled by Yughurs under nominal overlordship of China. And as I mentioned before Western Tumens controlled whole Inner Manchuria west of Xilin Gol.
• About Khoshuuts, they didn't even exist in 1444. Here's what Atwood (2004, 310) has to say on them:
  
• In 1444 the Khan of Northern Yuan was basically a puppet of Oirat Taishi and Khalkha were heavily weakened. Giving so much territory when the next Khaan was a puppet of Tumeds and Khorchin is a bit questionable.

Making Tumeds and Ordos vassals of Ming would be terribly ahistorical, because their fealty was entirely nominal. Altan Khan basically forced Chinese to restart trade and embassies with the threats of raiding border regions. Ming had no choice, but to trade substantial amounts of silk and other luxurious goods in exchange for Mongol horses.


Alag? Who do you mean precisely?

Here are the territories under influence of Tumeds (blue) and Chakhar (orange) circa 1444. Tumed might look strong, but we have to remember that the two westernmost provinces are barely populated deserts. Ordos was controlled by Ordos Mongols, the easternmost provinces by Yongshiebu Mongols and the provinces to the west and encompassing Ordos by Tumeds. In 1444 all Mongol states should be subverient Oirats and should declare independence with Esen's death.

I had to rename Khorchin to Kharchin because the name was already in use, theyre supposed to be Khorchin my bad.
Alag was a general who wanted to overthrow Esen's heir. so the oirats at the start would definitely still be the dominant in the region, until esen's death at least.

the Tumed should DEFINITELY have cores on those provinces as a bit later after the start (1460's?) The Tumed become especially influential in the region. But to show the Oirat dominance should belong to the Yuan.