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MattyG said:
I think what he's saying is that there wasn't a thread on the subject of Ukraine, so he's started one. I don't have any ideas myself; do you have any suggestions kszczypka?
I have an idea. In my opinion, Ukraine could vassalize Georgia and try to expand its influence over the Caucasus...
What do You think about this?
What do You think about this?
M.A. said:
I think this is a great idea and if I was playing Ukraine I would try such a move.
However, I don't think this necessarily needs to be an event. Byzantium currently has easier access and a greater claim upon Georgia.
What I can see is that Georgia becomes a point of contention between the two sometime in the 1600s, perhaps. By the 1500s they should be close friends, but maybe there can be some reason why Ukraine exerts some claim upon the regions leading to either a breakdown in relations, division of the terrotiry or a backdown by Ukraine. Maybe a 1700s event?
Matty
I think that we should add a few civil wars to the late Ukraine years 1600+ as by that poitn they have usually gobbled up an ungodly amount of territory.
Alain-Masque said:
Is this something you have found in multiple games? Or something only as a player playing Ukraine? Please could you provide more detail. I have not found them to be too large. Or, even though they are large, they have mostly poor provinces.
That said, civil war type events require some kind of cultural justification. Either two different cultural groups who don't get along, or a division in the country along political/religious lines as in the English civil war. Ideas?
I have an idea for the Caucasus, but it would involve splitting 'caucasian' back into 'georgian' and 'armenian'.
If ARM gets conquered, BYZ can draw up plans to revive the kingdom of Armenia. If it succeeds, it gets armenian culture (at a small cost to CENT), and it can turn a few more provinces armenian by expelling some Turks and Kurds. Given where the Kingdom of Armenia would extend, BYZ can never get both turkish and armenian culture at the same time.
If Ukraine gets far enough east, it gets to absorb Georgia (or take it for itself if Georgia has been conquered), and after a while gets georgian culture.
However, the Georgians and the Armenians don't get along with each other - problems will result if either BYZ or UKR tries to take the whole Caucasus.
If tensions arise between UKR and BYZ, it could be over the Caucasus, Kaffa and Kerch or access to the Med (for UKR), but I don't think we need anything drastic here - the likely result would be a formalisation of the status quo, pretty much. Neither of the sprawling powers would be particularly fussed about the economic value of the provinces: UKR's main concern would be sea access and BYZ's would be the security of their borders.
If ARM gets conquered, BYZ can draw up plans to revive the kingdom of Armenia. If it succeeds, it gets armenian culture (at a small cost to CENT), and it can turn a few more provinces armenian by expelling some Turks and Kurds. Given where the Kingdom of Armenia would extend, BYZ can never get both turkish and armenian culture at the same time.
If Ukraine gets far enough east, it gets to absorb Georgia (or take it for itself if Georgia has been conquered), and after a while gets georgian culture.
However, the Georgians and the Armenians don't get along with each other - problems will result if either BYZ or UKR tries to take the whole Caucasus.
If tensions arise between UKR and BYZ, it could be over the Caucasus, Kaffa and Kerch or access to the Med (for UKR), but I don't think we need anything drastic here - the likely result would be a formalisation of the status quo, pretty much. Neither of the sprawling powers would be particularly fussed about the economic value of the provinces: UKR's main concern would be sea access and BYZ's would be the security of their borders.
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MattyG said:
It varies a lot, even when all relevant countries are AI-controlled. If UKR takes over STE quickly, does well in Russia and reaches a weak BYZ in the South, it quickly takes on the proportions of the historical Russia and completely dominates the Orthodox world. At the other extreme Ukraine often gets conquered or crippled by STE, LAT or HUN and never becomes a major power. In between all sorts of things can happen, from a powerful Finland blocking Ukraine in the North, to other powers taking over parts of STE before UKR gets round to it and cutting off Siberian access.
But hey, that's Abe! There is no historical outcome!
Incompetent said:
I had considered similar ideas for my planned revision of Byzantium. Mostly its an excellent file but I felt that the Revive Armenia event was both too easy, too restricted and too late. Typically Armenia and Georgia would have already be consumed by the time the event rolles around. Also, it only occurs to Konstantinos XXII in the Kantekouzenoi line. Gievn the general nature of the event (in fact, not an event, but an idea) it should be broader than that. Finally, I think the event offers too much too easily.
So, I rewote the Armenian event to trigger for all lineages, although anyone who has chosen the line to receive Turkish culture will not pursue it, as they would have revolts coming out the ying yang. Konstantinos XII K still deserves something decent, so I replaced that.
Here are the Armenian events. Notice that the first will only trigger is Byzantium has not already conquered those provinces, otherwise the gambit makes no sense, and they have rolled the die already, as it were. The second event tiggers only if they chose to go for it. The third event will trigger irrespective of the first and second, as long as they own the set provinces. It allows them to finally get Caucasian culture, but not retain Turkish if they have it."
event = {
id = 200195
trigger = {
NOT = {
owned = ( province = 469 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 470 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 471 data = -1 }
}
NOT = { exists = ARM }
atwar = no
stability = 2
domestic = { type = offensive value = 6 }
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "Revive the Kingdom of Armenia"
desc = "With the rising powers of the Ukraine in the north and the moslem Caliphate to the south, the emporer's advisors have crafted a diplomatic and military option that would created a strong buffer to the Empire's east. By capturing the lands inhabited by caucasian peoples of Georgia, Armenia and Daghestan, the ancient Kingdom of Armenia can be created as an independent ally. Should we invest the diplomatic and military resources to make this happen?"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1540 }
offset = 3500
deathdate = day = 30 month = december year = 1590 }
action_a = {
name = "Pursue this endeavour"
command = { type = addcore which = 469 }
command = { type = addcore which = 470 }
command = { type = addcore which = 471 }
command = { type = addcore which = 472 }
}
action_b = {
name = "We shall pursue peace by other means"
command = { type = domestic which = offesnive value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = UKR value = 75 }
command = { type = relation which = CAL value = 50 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 200196 }
}
}
event = {
id = 200196
trigger = {
event = 200195
owned = ( province = 469 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 470 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 472 data = -1 }
atwar = no
}
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "The Caucasus are Secure"
desc = "We have captured the core lands of the ancient Kingdom of Armenia. What path shall we take?"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1545 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1595 }
action_a = {
name = "Create Armenia as vassal and ally"
command = { type = independence which = ARM }
command = { type = alliance which = ARM }
command = { type = cash value = 300 }
command = { type = badboy value = -6 }
command = { type = relation which = ARM value = 400 }
command = { type = losecore which = 469 }
command = { type = losecore which = 470 }
command = { type = losecore which = 471 }
command = { type = losecore which = 472 }
command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 60 }
}
action_b {
name = "Create Armenia as an independent ally"
command = { type = independence which = ARM }
command = { type = breakvassal which = ARM }
command = { type = alliance which = ARM }
command = { type = cash value = 400 }
command = { type = badboy value = -10 }
command = { type = relation which = ARM value = 400 }
command = { type = losecore which = 469 }
command = { type = losecore which = 470 }
command = { type = losecore which = 471 }
command = { type = losecore which = 472 }
command = { type = DIP which = 2 value = 60 }
}
action_c = {
name = "Retain control of the Caucasus"
command = { type = badboy value = 6 }
command = { type = relation which = UKR value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = CAL value = -25 }
command = { type = DIP which = -2 value = 60 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = 469 }
command = { type = revolt which = 470 }
command = { type = revolt which = 471 }
command = { type = revolt which = 472 }
}
}
event = {
id = 201947
trigger = {
owned = { province = 469 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 470 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 472 data = -1 }
stability = 2
NOT = { domestic = { type = centralization value = 6 }
}
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "The Caucasian Question"
desc = "As the peoples of the Caucasus have long now been part of the Empire and are of the true faith, the pressure from wealthy Caucasian nobles and merchants for greater priviledges and acceptance of local laws has increased greatly. While there are advantages to extending greater freedoms to these regions, the effects on other parts of our empire may be negative, with resentment especially from the infidel peoples. How shall we best handle this situation?"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }
offset = 1000
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1680 }
action_a = {
name = "Allow the eastern provinces a few extra freedoms"
command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -1 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 469 value = cityrights }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 470 value = cityrights }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 471 value = cityrights }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 472 value = cityrights }
command = { type = provincetax which = 469 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 469 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 470 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 470 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 470 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 470 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 470 value = -1 }
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 470 value = -1 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Incorporate Caucasians fully within the empire"
command = { type = add_countryculture which = caucasian }
command = { type = lose_countryculture which = turkish }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = revolt which = 476 }
command = { type = revolt which = 474 }
command = { type = revolt which = 482 }
command = { type = revolt which = 483 }
command = { type = revolt which = 1610 }
command = { type = revolt which = 1611 }
}
action_c = {
name = "Ignore their demands"
command = { type = revolt which = 469 }
command = { type = revolt which = 470 }
command = { type = revolt which = 471 }
command = { type = revolt which = 472 }
}
}
That's sort of what I was thinking of, but I'd make a few suggestions for those events.
1. The badboy in the second event is crazy. We're talking about Armenia here, not France. Any player would take option B for the huge BB reduction and then DA Armenia a few decades later.
2. I don't quite understand the options for the third event. Under which option does BYZ make more concessions to the Armenians, A or B?
3. Armenian culture is a bit useless at the moment, covering just one or two provinces whose tax values are nothing special. If we're talking about recreating the ancient kingdom (rather than taking over Georgia!) and ditching turkish culture then there has to be an 'Armenification' option, which would spread the culture and religion at the cost of damage to the provinces and enraging the Muslim world. Where would all those Armenians come from, you may ask? Well, they would already be a significant minority in the relevant provinces, as was the case historically until they were killed/deported en masse in the early 20th century.
My idea was something like this:
1. Revive the Kingdom of Armenia
- gives cores and kicks off the chain if the player says Yes
2. The tables are turned in Armenia (as soon as you have the provinces)
"The local Armenians, with the support of the victorious Roman army, do all sorts of nasty things to the Muslims in an effort to make 'Greater Armenia' a truly Armenian land"
- Actively support the 'Restoration' - gain BB, lose cash, gain stab (Greeks etc support this nastiness), lose turkish culture, piss off Muslim countries (with an event for CAL), provinces change to Armenian Orthodox, severe damage to provinces, revolts
- Tolerate some of the pillaging - minor damage to provinces, lose turkish culture, lose stability
- Stop it! Punish all the perpetrators! - lose BB, lose stability, sleep event 3 (people will feel you're too kind to the Muslims)
NB: the nasty option is A here, because if you've got this far, you probably do want to aggressively restore Greater Armenia.
3. The Armenian Question (a few decades later - requires 2 and that you still have the provinces)
- The Armenians need security: gives the culture, at a cost to CENT etc
- The Armenians deserve freedom: releases (Greater) Armenia as a vassal and drops cores; lose BB (as compensation for lost provinces)
Let's face it, an independent Armenia would probably get killed anyway.
1. The badboy in the second event is crazy. We're talking about Armenia here, not France. Any player would take option B for the huge BB reduction and then DA Armenia a few decades later.
2. I don't quite understand the options for the third event. Under which option does BYZ make more concessions to the Armenians, A or B?
3. Armenian culture is a bit useless at the moment, covering just one or two provinces whose tax values are nothing special. If we're talking about recreating the ancient kingdom (rather than taking over Georgia!) and ditching turkish culture then there has to be an 'Armenification' option, which would spread the culture and religion at the cost of damage to the provinces and enraging the Muslim world. Where would all those Armenians come from, you may ask? Well, they would already be a significant minority in the relevant provinces, as was the case historically until they were killed/deported en masse in the early 20th century.
My idea was something like this:
1. Revive the Kingdom of Armenia
- gives cores and kicks off the chain if the player says Yes
2. The tables are turned in Armenia (as soon as you have the provinces)
"The local Armenians, with the support of the victorious Roman army, do all sorts of nasty things to the Muslims in an effort to make 'Greater Armenia' a truly Armenian land"
- Actively support the 'Restoration' - gain BB, lose cash, gain stab (Greeks etc support this nastiness), lose turkish culture, piss off Muslim countries (with an event for CAL), provinces change to Armenian Orthodox, severe damage to provinces, revolts
- Tolerate some of the pillaging - minor damage to provinces, lose turkish culture, lose stability
- Stop it! Punish all the perpetrators! - lose BB, lose stability, sleep event 3 (people will feel you're too kind to the Muslims)
NB: the nasty option is A here, because if you've got this far, you probably do want to aggressively restore Greater Armenia.
3. The Armenian Question (a few decades later - requires 2 and that you still have the provinces)
- The Armenians need security: gives the culture, at a cost to CENT etc
- The Armenians deserve freedom: releases (Greater) Armenia as a vassal and drops cores; lose BB (as compensation for lost provinces)
Let's face it, an independent Armenia would probably get killed anyway.
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First, there is currently no Armenian culture. It issomething you have suggested we add, but with the limit on the number you suggested to be 20 for whole world, it hardly seems justified. So, that means there are four Caucasian prvinces, Sochi, Armenia, Georgia and Daghestan.
Second, the BB reduction could be lessened, but its far from insane, given the price paid to have conquered the lands (ducats, troops, time) and then conceding them all to someone else. Plus there is the BB increase for breaking a vassalage. It could reduced two points, but it represents the incentive to 'liberate' the old kingdom.
Third, the options A and B are not necessarily oppositional, they are different approaches. In the first, more local autonomy is given, but Armenians are not accepted into the broader empires administration. In the second option, they are. There are benefits to each approach, player choses.
Fourth, you only lose Turkish culture if you have it, which only occurs in one of several lineage lines for Byzantium. If you had Turkish culture I can only see you taking this option if you had subsequently lost several Turksih provinces to the Caliphate, but at least the choice is there.
Finally, it doesn't matter that Armenia might be gobbled up anyway. If that was important, we wouldn't bother with any events relating to minors. It's worth it alone for the flavour. However, we can certainly build in rewards for keeping Armenia in the game. For example, they can have a string of quality leaders. Or, better yet, Certain Armenian generals will enter Byzantine service, but only if Armenia exists to have produced them etc etc.
That said, I certainly like some of your ideas as well. I am sure we can work something out.
Second, the BB reduction could be lessened, but its far from insane, given the price paid to have conquered the lands (ducats, troops, time) and then conceding them all to someone else. Plus there is the BB increase for breaking a vassalage. It could reduced two points, but it represents the incentive to 'liberate' the old kingdom.
Third, the options A and B are not necessarily oppositional, they are different approaches. In the first, more local autonomy is given, but Armenians are not accepted into the broader empires administration. In the second option, they are. There are benefits to each approach, player choses.
Fourth, you only lose Turkish culture if you have it, which only occurs in one of several lineage lines for Byzantium. If you had Turkish culture I can only see you taking this option if you had subsequently lost several Turksih provinces to the Caliphate, but at least the choice is there.
Finally, it doesn't matter that Armenia might be gobbled up anyway. If that was important, we wouldn't bother with any events relating to minors. It's worth it alone for the flavour. However, we can certainly build in rewards for keeping Armenia in the game. For example, they can have a string of quality leaders. Or, better yet, Certain Armenian generals will enter Byzantine service, but only if Armenia exists to have produced them etc etc.
That said, I certainly like some of your ideas as well. I am sure we can work something out.
In regards to any Ukraine events I would suggest a conflict between Finland and Ukraine, this has some justification, as neither power would tolerate each other than longer than necessary. They are too often allies. Maybe if the TO crusades are thrown back and Finland gets the crown of the Czar a few events will fire creating a lot of tension between them. All too often (4 times) I have seen them mangle the GH together then Ukraine attack Byzantium who I was playing as once, by this time I had beaten the Kaliphate and was pretty powerful and they still nearly beat me. The other times they annihilate the Byzantines who can't fight the Ukrainians and the kaliphate and Hungary. This could create a Finland-Ukraine war before the Ukraine starts colonising.
MattyG said:
1. I see what you're saying on the cultural issue; while I would still like to split the culture if we still can, I appreciate that it would be a low priority. I perhaps slightly understated the number of available cultures, as we also have the merged European and Asian cultures (eg Armenian), but it could still be tight. However, if the area of new cores for BYZ is to be Sochi, Armenia, Georgia and Daghestan, it shouldn't be called 'Reviving the Kingdom of Armenia' as the Roman tributary state was further south, mostly in the Kurdish lands.
2. On the BB, if you think -8BB or whatever is sensible for that event, we have very different views on the nature of BB: I would say the BB system generated by the game is mostly fine (or at any rate not something we can change), and events should tweak it occasionally, whereas what you're proposing is a BB system that is very much dominated by events. I support some BB reduction for relinquishing provinces, but only a little, and never more than the number of provinces affected. If you want to give additional rewards, give them in the form of +relations and/or +DIP; BB gifts are like a giant licence to conquer for a human player. In the other direction, massive BB penalties will stop a player dead in his tracks, and he'll do anything possible to avoid being hit by the event. If I didn't want to ever release Armenia, I would do just enough to stop that event firing, say by taking 3 of the 4 provinces.
3&4. Fair enough, but the player will choose C if they want to keep Turkish. Revolts are quickly put down, but tax value damage is permanent (manpower will be irrelevant if these provs are wrong-culture). After all the effort BYZ has put in, A needs to be somewhat more rewarding.
5. That was a remark about why keeping hold of Armenia (rather than releasing it) would be a default option and acceptable to the Armenians. Many of them realise that they owe their security againt the Muslims to BYZ, and if they tried to go it alone, even in an alliance with BYZ, they'd be much more vulnerable. Armenian leaders are also an incentive to keep them IN the empire rather than out!
The event only requires you to take three of the four for it to fire, so to avoid the event you would need to take only two. As the initial trigger does not require Armenia, because Byzantium typically takes it early, this means that you would be stopping at Dagestan or Sochi and no further. So, avoiding the event triggering would be pretty close to not having pursied it in the first place.
The values can always be altered, though. This is not the important issue with first-drafts of events. I don't recall a single event I have written that has not had values moved up, down, left and right a few times. What is impotant is the flow and feel of the events.
For me, the Armenian event cycle is an option for a Byzantium that pursues the west over the east. The western option - typically a Palaiologoi option - requires that Byzantium somehow secure its eastern border. This module could allow for the creation of a medium-sized power whose ai would encourage it to pursue, say, an anti-Horde policy and have a number of ai events that ensured it stayed on good terms with Byzantium.
The neat twists is that one of the two main Palaiologoi routes is to gain Turkish culture, and the Armenian kingdom will clash somewhat with that goal (nothing is ever perfect, right?). The player/ai who steam rolls eastwards in the first 50 years won't need to even worry about the event cycle if they don't want to.
Matty
The values can always be altered, though. This is not the important issue with first-drafts of events. I don't recall a single event I have written that has not had values moved up, down, left and right a few times. What is impotant is the flow and feel of the events.
For me, the Armenian event cycle is an option for a Byzantium that pursues the west over the east. The western option - typically a Palaiologoi option - requires that Byzantium somehow secure its eastern border. This module could allow for the creation of a medium-sized power whose ai would encourage it to pursue, say, an anti-Horde policy and have a number of ai events that ensured it stayed on good terms with Byzantium.
The neat twists is that one of the two main Palaiologoi routes is to gain Turkish culture, and the Armenian kingdom will clash somewhat with that goal (nothing is ever perfect, right?). The player/ai who steam rolls eastwards in the first 50 years won't need to even worry about the event cycle if they don't want to.
Matty
MattyG said:
Possibly, but I'm very, very reluctant to let Byzantium have any more cultures once it has Greek, Slavonic and Italian. I think a Byanztium that's really committed to Italy would be prepared to withdraw to a more defensible position, holding onto 'Anatolia' and 'Smyrna' provinces (because they're very wealthy, and to secure the straits) but not much further east - heavy fortification of those two provinces, together with protecting the seas to keep them supplied, would give Byzantium a perfectly defensible position in the area. Trying to grab even more land is only going to take resources away from the wars in the West which Byzantium cares more about. Knowing how the AI behaves, an independent Armenia could drag Byzantium into wars (either offensive or defensive - Armenia will get bored with peace and think its powerful ally gives it a licence to DOW) it doesn't want to fight, and it doesn't protect the Empire against their real enemies in the East - the Caliphate.
Going for Turkish and going for Armenia are in a similar geographical area, but different in style. The Turkish route is for a more innovative, tolerant empire, and is probably the best option to blunt the Caliphate's counterattack (as the Turks will no longer be asking the Caliphate for help!) and gradually assimilate part of Anatolia. The Armenian route is for a more narrow-minded empire, and is a good way for Byzantium to draw the Caliphate into a war. A pro-Armenian Byzantium under the Palaiologoi will probably also forcibly Hellenise the remaining Turkish provinces. I'd say this route is for an expansionist Byzantium that's prepared to have a big fight in the east, as they're going to royally piss off the Muslim world.
hi! I was thinking maybe there is a chance you will change the name of Ukraine in the new version. Ukraine doesn't sound right as the word Ukraine (ukraina) wasn't the name of a nation back than, it was a generic word meaning some area, there were several different ukrainas back than.
Another thing is the monarch names. They sound too greek. Theodore would be Fedor in Ukranian for example.
Another thing is the monarch names. They sound too greek. Theodore would be Fedor in Ukranian for example.
So what do you want the name changed to, there's no way anything will happen before you give us some suggestions. Anyway Ukraine is in game sort of an artificila kingdom created by a lord during the fall of the lithuanian empire, so it isn't meant to be a name of a real nation.Sekenr said:
Ah, so its like a split-off rebel nation ? Than its ok I guess.
But I still offer my help in making monarchnames more slavic if its needed
But I still offer my help in making monarchnames more slavic if its needed