Proposals of events of Ukraine

[Incompetent]

It looks like there are three possible Ukraines being proposed (maybe not this extreme, but the same general idea):

The Cossack horde: The Cossacks retain their old ways of war and pillaging for a living, and lack much central organisation. Very expansionist, with lots of cores, but also backward.

The Republic: Ukraine becomes a model for democracy and freedom. The Cossacks settle down with their families and focus on farming and trade. Not too many cores, but good tech and a fairly peaceful existence. That is, of course, unless they try to spread their funny political ideas to other countries...

The Russian way: After its spectacular early expansion, most of Ukraine's population are not Cossacks, but 'prisoners-of-war' who do all the menial jobs while the Cossacks go off to fight (taking prisoners was something the real-life Cossacks did a lot - someone has to feed their armies!) The Cossacks become like any other aristocracy ruling over an oppressed mass of serfs, so Ukraine is a lot like other eastern European countries. Ukraine develops a very 'Russian' outlook on things, in more ways than one.



We've also got to think about how Ukraine interacts with one of its principal enemies, the Teutonic Order. The apocalyptic scenario would be a White TO versus a 'Cossack Horde' Ukraine: on the one side you have a well-drilled and well-led army of Catholic fanatics who are out to end the Great Schism by force; on the other you have a huge horde of Orthodox Christian horsemen specialising in guerilla warfare. Both sides idolise martial virtues and dedicate most of their lives to warfare.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Since I'm now planning the uzbekhs, it would be interresting to see how the different models of Ukraine will react when they encounter a new great hordish empire.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

In early times, Cossack tribes were commanded by an ataman (later called hetman). He was elected by the tribe members, as were the other important tribe officials: the judge, the scribe, the lesser officials, and even the clergy.

(Electer representation)

The ataman had executive powers and at time of war he was the supreme commander in the field.

(Executive commander-n-chief)

Legislative power was given to the Tribal Assembly (Rada).

Rada is the term for "council" or "assembly" borrowed by Polish from Middle High German "Rat" (council) and later passed into Czech, Ukrainian, and Belarusian languages.

Normally it is translated as "council", sometimes it corresponds to "parliament

In the absence of written laws, the Cossacks were governed by the "Cossack Traditions," the common, unwritten law.

So here we have a Common Law, Executive and Legislature separation with all leaders elected by popular vote. Geee.

most of Cossak rada members were heads of prominent families. So they did have more and less powerful groups whithin each tabor. While a hot young ataman could gather a new band and go on seeking his fortunes somewhere on the borders, and it did happen that way, pretty much most of the raiding was done by established cliques which had "turf" and would complain to the hetman of they young ones.

 

[Sekenr]

Inevitably, one or more of those hetmans would be that individual. Nothing just 'happens' in human affairs. Great ideas, great leadership, great change is alway precipitated my powerful individuals. There is no deus ex machina, there is only people ex machina (sorry I don't know the latin for 'man'). Far from being artificial, I would say that anything that any situation like this which does not revolve around one or more significant individuals would appear artificial. It still needs to happen in a time of 'crisis' (people can't move forward their brilliant ideas for national change in times of peace and prosperity) and that crisis would either be the failure of the culture (cossacks being hammered) or such an overwhelming success of the culture that it cannot sustain itself (Ukr growing very big).

All I'm saying is that these changes should happen one step at a time, not a great radical change introduced by great leader. And IMO you don't need a great leader to make small steps, and the council of hetmans who see a bit further in the future than a common cossak, should be enough to recognise the necessity of reorganisation. Given that they expand enough, the question of what to do to these lands, and how to keep them will inevitably arise.
Edit: and what concerns a crisis - isn't chaos reigning in the newly conquered border lands a crisis ? Also another thing, is it possible that this reorganisation would be tied to reaching infra level thet lets you build tax collectors? Or do they have this tech from the start ?

And also: what about their quality? maybe their should be a bonus to quality if the "russian way" is chosen, representing cossaks becoming aristocrats and being able to afford better equipment, and another change when they encounter a real enemy - yourworstnightm or the Khaliphat

 

[MattyG]

All I'm saying is that these changes should happen one step at a time, not a great radical change introduced by great leader. And IMO you don't need a great leader to make small steps, and the council of hetmans who see a bit further in the future than a common cossak, should be enough to recognise the necessity of reorganisation. Given that they expand enough, the question of what to do to these lands, and how to keep them will inevitably arise.
Edit: and what concerns a crisis - isn't chaos reigning in the newly conquered border lands a crisis ? Also another thing, is it possible that this reorganisation would be tied to reaching infra level thet lets you build tax collectors? Or do they have this tech from the start ?

And also: what about their quality? maybe their should be a bonus to quality if the "russian way" is chosen, representing cossaks becoming aristocrats and being able to afford better equipment, and another change when they encounter a real enemy - yourworstnightm or the Khaliphat

If the events could be genuinely crafted as gradual then I'd be very happy. Most designers don't write their events this way, though. I still maintain that significant individuals are appropriate. Try finding any major event or gradual change that did not revolve around brilliant individuals with vision?

Infra 1 is all that is needed for tax collectors. And if a country doesn't start the game on level 1, then they would get it within the first year, it's so cheap.

 

[Incompetent]

This thread seemed to be getting somewhere, then it fell silent. Anyone had any further thoughts on Ukraine? If no-one else is too interested I can have a go at rebalancing the events, leaders and monarchs Ukraine has now, but it'd be better if someone who has detailed ideas came forward to write new events. Any volunteers?

 

[Sekenr]

I stopped posting here since I've nothing to reply to MattyG's last comment. I'm unwilling to script myself, besides I only have vague ideas, nothing specific.

 

[MattyG]

All,

I have already been through the Ukraine file to balance events and to alter all the incorrect commands. I have toned down the extreme quality of the monarchs and the leaders. There is still a lot of work that could be done on the Ukraine, though.

MattyG

 

[Varcislaus]

Ukraine is inposible in 1419, Ukraine emerges under polish rule ,if not they would
be common rutherians , you should change name of this country, and no ukrainian culture (it emerge under polish rule ). Should be rutherian.

 

[MattyG]

Ukraine is inposible in 1419, Ukraine emerges under polish rule ,if not they would
be common rutherians , you should change name of this country, and no ukrainian culture (it emerge under polish rule ). Should be rutherian.

Um, that's right.

That's why they have been removed. It was planned a while back but only made it into the most recent patch. That region now begins as the Cossack Hetmanate, but it can become Ruthenia or the republic of Ukraine (which needs to be seen as different from modern Ukraine that emerged from Polish-Lithuanian domination).