Psionic Themes in Shadows of the Shroud

[Tannhäuser Cake]

I have added a few things to my earlier post (#4), after rediscovering a number of earlier posts by me on the topic of psionics and wanting to collect them all in one place (which might as well be that post, in this thread).

I, for one, still think that a shedding of material bodies (i.e. becoming "living energy") should be a path within psionics. It could also fit well with a more sciencey and less spiritual perspective; where Engineering has mechanical transformation, and Society has biological transformation, Physics (if psionics are finally moved there) could have energy transformation. Where mechanical ascension thinks "the flesh is weak" and biological ascension thinks "the flesh is strong", energy/psionic ascension could take the position "there is no flesh". Just like there is no spoon.

I also think we should face a choice between mind, matter and time/space manipulation. Telepathy, telekinesis and precognition, to name a few examples of psionics, are quite different phenomena in fiction, and rarely occur at the same time - at least not strongly.

It could even be possible to ascend beyond the need for material starships, where a sufficient control of external and/or internal environments would allow a crew to generate and link forcefields in a manner that functions similar to a starship. Except that it is built with Unity rather than Alloys or Food, possibly either transparent or as opaque as a black hole, and has no/minimal hull or armour and instead gets immense shields. (This type of "starship" could arguably be available for powerful telekinetics, powerful time/space warpers, and energy beings - just not those who focus too much on telepathy. The shroud could, however, be available to all psionics - albeit perhaps with slightly different means of access depending on the chosen main psionic branch.)

Psionic ascension for machines also seems fair, so they too can finally have a ghost in the shell.

Edit 1:
We are also long overdue for an "iconoclast" society type / permanent civic that is about putting an end to all AI everywhere. A "Determined Exterminator", except by the living against the machines. This one should also not require Spiritualist ethics, since there can be many other perfectly reasonable reasons to desire the extermination of all AI - and all robots too, just to be on the safe side.

Edit 2:
Psionic Death Cults should have a sacrificial edict for turning pops into Zro?
Death Cults should get a covenant sacrificial edict?

Edit 3:
"Psionic AI" technology, for those who have developed both Psionic Theory and AI technology?
(Especially since the psionic technologies already reflect most other Physics types of technologies, but not yet this one. Lore-wise it could be either an AI with psionic abilities, or "trapped" psionic energy with AI abilities, or intentionally vague as to which begets the other.)

Edit 4:
While ethereal/energy species could eat Energy, it might be interesting if they would instead eat Unity. Or at least, if there was a powerful edict where that was the case. Perhaps while ethereal/energy beings became unable to produce it themselves (via jobs and factions alike), making them need biological Unity producers / worshippers (reference to the Ori of the Stargate series).

• Edit 4a: This could perhaps even be extended to psionic beings in general, in unequal societies; an elite caste of powerful psionics that gain greater psionic power from the subservience and worship of those they dominate. The edict might not even require that the psionics are the main species.
• Edit 4b: This could be complemented with the ability to extract Unity from vassals as tribute, and perhaps even a new vassal specialist type.
• Edit 4c: A new origin could even be based on the concept, where a small group of psionic aliens have become the elite of a world mostly populated by sentient natives. The psionic aliens would not necessarily be the main species of the empire. This origin might also be "given" to pre-FTL species by rogue scientists who fancy the idea of ruling over others like god-emperors.

Edit 5:
An alternative to, or variant of, going for energy ascension could also involve the use of golems / puppet bodies to "house the psionic essence" or interact with physical reality. This alternative could range from forceful manipulation of crude matter to the use of synthetic bodies, provided that the necessary technology is available. Basically, psionic beings could use physical avatars that do not need to follow the normal rules of life, and therefore would not need to make biological or mechanical sense and could challenge the sense of reality of those who see them. The physical forms would be conduits/anchors for the true, indescribable form, and could include such alternatives as a pyramid with a shining eye, a monolith with the proportions 1:4:9 (lithoid preference?), eye-covered (cog)wheels within (cog)wheels surrounded by a burning halo (machine preference?), a micro-singularity that bends light around it, Borromean rings, Penrose triangles, et cetera.

Edit 6:
Void Clouds desperately need to be included in (the free update that goes along with) a psionic DLC. They have now slipped past both the space fauna DLC and the space weather DLC without being included in either. At the very least, migratory Void Clouds should be added; hopefully, they could also get a midgame crisis where they grow out of control.

• Edit 6a: more Void Cloud suggestions

Edit 7:
Divine Sovereign could be made a unique government type, rather than a civic. It could also be an incompatible alternative to the shroud patrons, as some have suggested while referencing 40,000 unspecified reasons.

Edit 8:
Entering the Shroud should cost Unity, not Energy Credits

Edit 9:
All ascension paths should have a policy option for dealing with those not yet ascended in the same manner as the empire: leave as free residents, assimilate, enslave, or purge/displace (depending on ethics et cetera). Perhaps also an option for allowing them to be citizens, though I think it could be incredibly difficult to function as a full citizen of a psionic, cybernetic, synthetic or genetic ascension society where you do not share the ascension.

• Edit 9a: A variant of this could be that having a main species with an ascension trait unlocks civics normally not available, that would instead mediate the effects of the suggested policy setting.

Edit 10:
Energy form ascension could have one portrait corresponding to each other portrait category, similar to how machine portraits have representations for the other groups. This would mean that the humanoid energy portrait is already in the game. There could also be a conservative option where a species could opt to keep its old portrait, which then becomes semi-transparent.

 

[Bentus]

Something I think should be mentioned in regards to Psionics is the classical Star Trek psionics that is untethered to another world/otherworldy patrons. Human beings (and xenos too) that have began to unlock their own potential and possess powers like telepathy as shown in many an episode would be much more fitting a thing for egalitarian empires.

In this light I propose that the patron pathways be tied into the more authoritarian and xenophobic ethics and that the non-patron pathways be tied to egalitarianism. Set psionic ascension apart from the others by giving it a slightly more restrictive ethics bound event system that changes the flavor and lore as well as the bonuses and rewards based on your empire type. Give us the RNG of the original shroud combined with a rough directional choice system using the new ascension event style added in the recent reworks that narrows but does not eliminate the RNG while also allowing for focused bonuses without forcing all of us to be demon worshipers please my gods.

EDIT: Also, give us the option at the very last second to change. Allow us to go from hardcore auth to egalitarian and back like you can currently to from any empire type to auth when you unlock Chosen One. The mechanics already exist for the most part they just need to actually be expanded and the lore fleshed out and given variety and flavor. Make our ethics mean something without locking us down for an entire match. There is precedent with things like Fear Of The Dark origin.

 

[Ikael]

I really, really, reeeeeeaaaaally hope that we will get the chance to be Psionic without becoming thralls to evil gods (and without losing a major opportunity cost if you decide to opt out of covenants).

As for what could be done, psionic ascension is ripe for many flavorful possibilities:

-> Becoming pure energy beings, and then choosing which method you would want to become tethered to this material plane
-> Ascending one of your leaders (or many) into godhood, possibly enraging other Shroud denizens
-> Enlightening your pops into another plane of existence, exploring and eventually colonizing the Shroud realms

And of course, it would be nice to see additional covenant options too!

PS: Advanced, non-dystopian psionic authorities would be great to see as well. I want my empath-driven, kumbaya-singing egalitarian commune.

 

[SS Boss]

One thing I really want is making the Shroud entities more neutral, like natural entities - even if they're not a natural phenomenon, instead of emulating the Warhammer edgelords.

 

[Zaacplot300]

My 2 cents is I don't mind the shroud patrons but conceptually its pretty limited having every option currently require a warlock pact unless you want to be suboptimal. Same for the requirement to be spiritualist for Psionics that exists in every form except an explicit limit on the Mind Over Matter ascension perk. There's plenty of Psionics media where psychicshave few or no spiritual trappings. Stars Without Number, Control, and Mob Psycho 100 come to mind. I think what I'd suggest is this for tradition trees

* Devotion. This path focuses on the worship of shroud entities and lets you draw power from them. It would expand on the current patron system.
* Dominion. This path focuses on the consolidation of a massive shard of psionic power behind a single or small group of your empire's leadership caste. In a dictatorship or imperial empire, this would result in something similar to the chosen one but in a more egalitarian society it would perhaps boost the council or factions.
* Autonomy. This path eschews centralization of psionic power, placing the primary means of developing psionic power in the hands of the masses without locking it behind powerful outside sources and becoming reliant on them. I don't know what this would look like mechanically, but my visual idea is something like Stars Without Number where psychics have no spiritual leanings beyond any religious beliefs they might have and so aren't being influenced by deific psionic beings of mortal or extra dimensional origin

 

[SurrealGoblin]

1) Psionics that are doing mind magic in a way that doesn’t involve weird eldrich gods/demons. Star Wars, Star Trek, mass effect, lots of soft sci fi has this.

2) Gods that aren’t demons that you can worship. Neutral ones, kind ones. It would be fine if they can be interpreted as sneaky evil or genuinely good depending on what you prefer.

3) Crusade against god(s). Maybe via a crisis path. Invade the shroud.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

3) Crusade against god(s). Maybe via a crisis path. Invade the shroud.

I believe that is essentially the ending of the Galactic Nemesis crisis...

 

[Calvax]

I’d like both more patrons and non patron options. For the latter there’s plenty to draw from already in the game. Like reworking the chosen one to be a patron rejection option where your people focus their power on one individual. Other options could be your people creating their own domain they can pull shared power from, and a “psychotech” option where they primarily use power through technology.

I’m not sure having non shroud psionics would be good. While I get the shroud isn’t everyone’s cup of tea coherent world building is still important even in a sandbox game.

 

[Marmelado]

I am also worried about the upcoming Psionics DLC and how Shroud-centered it is. The things I would like to see:

1) Psionics should not be hard tied to the Shroud and to the Zroni. Instead Psionics should be nothing more than a natural phenomenon, which is hard to study with the traditional scientific method. Psionics should occur naturally in many places and they should have many manifestations, with the Shroud merely being one of them;

2) As a player you should be able to develop your own psionic abilities naturally the way you want (like the Zroni did), without the Shroud interference. And to traverse the Shroud without making dubious deals, if you don't want them;

3) That way there could be a diverse array of Psionic content. You can have your Psionics as something closer to Star Wars' Force if you want, or maybe something else, not just WH40K reference, which is the Shroud;

4) A player should gets a choice, whether to develop a species' natural psionic ability (slow and solid path) or to sign a pact with the Shroud entity (quick way to power with strings attached). Kind of like, whether you want to accumulate money slowly through hard work or take a loan from an investor who wants to co-run your company;

5) Psionic content should not have so many religious connotations. While Spiritualism should favor Psionics and be more harmonious with it than other ethics, (like how Materialism works well with Synthetics), ultimately they are not the same. Developing a Psionics does not mean a species got closer to a higher metaphysical power, it just means it developed Psionics. A Materialist Psionic species should be viable, same with non-Psionic Spirtualist species;

6) Psionic abilities should be active and special, not passive and bland. As a player it is far more satisfying to use some unique ability to do something special, rather than doing the same thing you usually do but have it easier because you have a bonus;

7) Dividing Psionics into telekinesis, telepathy and dimension-warping paths is a cool idea. A player should be able to combine those in the way they like, similar to how Biogenesis approaches biological mastery.

The things I would not like to see:

8) A repeat of Cosmic Storms situation; a middle-of-the-season Q3 smaller sized DLC, providing little enjoyable content and many annoying problems.

 

[Thiend]

I am also worried about the upcoming Psionics DLC and how Shroud-centered it is. The things I would like to see:

1) Psionics should not be hard tied to the Shroud and to the Zroni. Instead Psionics should be nothing more than a natural phenomenon, which is hard to study with the traditional scientific method. Psionics should occur naturally in many places and they should have many manifestations, with the Shroud merely being one of them;

2) As a player you should be able to develop your own psionic abilities naturally the way you want (like the Zroni did), without the Shroud interference. And to traverse the Shroud without making dubious deals, if you don't want them;

3) That way there could be a diverse array of Psionic content. You can have your Psionics as something closer to Star Wars' Force if you want, or maybe something else, not just WH40K reference, which is the Shroud;

4) A player should gets a choice, whether to develop a species' natural psionic ability (slow and solid path) or to sign a pact with the Shroud entity (quick way to power with strings attached). Kind of like, whether you want to accumulate money slowly through hard work or take a loan from an investor who wants to co-run your company;

5) Psionic content should not have so many religious connotations. While Spiritualism should favor Psionics and be more harmonious with it than other ethics, (like how Materialism works well with Synthetics), ultimately they are not the same. Developing a Psionics does not mean a species got closer to a higher metaphysical power, it just means it developed Psionics. A Materialist Psionic species should be viable, same with non-Psionic Spirtualist species;

6) Psionic abilities should be active and special, not passive and bland. As a player it is far more satisfying to use some unique ability to do something special, rather than doing the same thing you usually do but have it easier because you have a bonus;

7) Dividing Psionics into telekinesis, telepathy and dimension-warping paths is a cool idea. A player should be able to combine those in the way they like, similar to how Biogenesis approaches biological mastery.

The things I would not like to see:

8) A repeat of Cosmic Storms situation; a middle-of-the-season Q3 smaller sized DLC, providing little enjoyable content and many annoying problems.

If they waited over a year to update psionics and then it gets a notably worse quality (as the other three are all high-quality, at least prospectively for Biogenesis), such as by being the only one without multiple thematic options and major gameplay differences between them, I will be...

I guess "aggravated" is the best summary.

I have high hopes, but we'll see in a few months. Or they'll respond with something here, either way.

 

[Marmelado]

If they waited over a year to update psionics and then it gets a notably worse quality (as the other three are all high-quality, at least prospectively for Biogenesis), such as by being the only one without multiple thematic options and major gameplay differences between them, I will be...

I guess "aggravated" is the best summary.

I have high hopes, but we'll see in a few months. Or they'll respond with something here, either way.

Hopefully, Psionics rework would also be of high quality. But so far what we have is a description for the Shadows of the Shroud DLC. And it looks like just a repackaged and expanded Shroud content, not something groundbreaking like the Machine Age or Biogenesis. Also we have a regrettable past experience with the Cosmic Storms.

There is still time and maybe they would respond but it is very possible that they do not intend to rework Psionics as much. So, it is important to raise awareness now.

 

[Silens]

I actually wouldn't mind if they swapped the release of Infernals (scheduled for Q4) and Psiogenesis (because I refuse to call it "Shadows of the Shroud"), to put some extra work into it to make it better, and less focused on the Shroud.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the sudden appearance of Shroud-scpeticism caught the devs a bit off-guard. It was an issue for me for quite some time now, but out of respect for Bio I kept silent, since they got it so much worse. Well, until now...

 

[LordWahu]

You could easily split the psionic ascension path into three trees, similar to how they are splitting the genetic modification ascension
1) Technological enhancements: The Mass Effect or XCOM option. Enhancing the mind's capabilities via devices or specialized cybernetics. Has a material cost for ascended pops, and probably the weakest benefits, but it can be easily applied to all pops. Good for xenophilic or egalitarian empires
2) Substances: The Dune style "drugs make you magic". Costs Zro to enhance pops, but has better advantages. An excellent option for autocratic nations. I saw a suggestion for rending unwilling pops into Zro, and quite like that idea
3) Shroud: Both the Warp and the Force, following the will of some ethereal being. No cost for ascension, but benefits are random. Basically what we have now

 

[Nabil ad Dajjal]

I'll quote myself from another very similar thread:

It would be nice if the God-Emperor and Shroud Patron paths were different, representing either taking a 'Golden Path' or a quick Faustian deal.

My pick for a third option would be 'Ascension,' with a less-redundant name, for gradually turning into non-corporeal energy beings. Virtuality has shown how something like that could work from a gameplay perspective, you would just need to make the flavor a bit more enlightenment-coded. That could also serve as a bone to throw to materialist empires, so people who want bland Star Trek / Culture style psionics can avoid the fun 40K / Dune lore.

 

[CocoCincinnati]

I for one have always liked that psionic ascension was closely tied to the spiritualist ethic and that it pushes that attraction. And to be honest, if you took away the spiritualist attraction from everything associated with this ascension path, there would not be much left, only through diplomacy in fact which would make playing a xenophobe/spiritualist almost impossible. You would definitely need a rebalance of the ethic attraction system if this were to happen.

However, I never really knew how unpopular this was until reading this discussion. Perhaps if they add 3 kinds of psionic ascension, as they did the other two, then there can be one path that is more "scientifically" centered although I confess I have no idea what that would look like.

As for the shroud itself, I agree with what has been said that there needs to be more variety with the covenants. Maybe some with less overall benefit but less harsh penalties as a result to make them more appealing...I mean the chance of a leader dying every decade or two is a complete no go for me, leaving desire as the only viable one to play and even that one is a stretch for a "good" empire. Maybe have some benevolent or neutral covenants as well.

Would also be nice if chosen one was the first step in creating your own covenant with that leader going through several steps to ascend to the shroud by creating a new covenant or by taking over an existing covenant from the current patron and getting rid of the worst penalties, like leader death, making those other covenants viable to play again.

 

[Marmelado]

I for one have always liked that psionic ascension was closely tied to the spiritualist ethic and that it pushes that attraction. And to be honest, if you took away the spiritualist attraction from everything associated with this ascension path, there would not be much left, only through diplomacy in fact which would make playing a xenophobe/spiritualist almost impossible. You would definitely need a rebalance of the ethic attraction system if this were to happen.

However, I never really knew how unpopular this was until reading this discussion.

Speaking for myself, it is fine for Psionics and Spirutualism to be more harmonious than other combinations. What annoys me is that the current implementation of Psionics supports exactly one kind of Spiritualism - worship of the Shroud entities and/or chosen one. Not all players enjoy that sort of content, let alone its limitations.

Imagine playing peaceful ordered Spirutualists, like Jedi. They have their own belief system based on higher ideals and it does not involve any worship. Then they go Psionic and suddenly you realize that either you 1) betray your vision and play along with the Shroud WH40K fantasy to experience Psionic content and buff your species with some bonus; 2) or you stay true to what you envisioned, even if it means not engaging with significant part of the content you paid for and not receiving bonus.

In other words, Psionics should not be limited to signing stupid pacts with Zroni-created entities.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Imagine playing peaceful ordered Spirutualists, like Jedi. They have their own belief system based on higher ideals and it does not involve any worship. Then they go Psionic and suddenly you realize that either you 1) betray your vision and play along with the Shroud WH40K fantasy to experience Psionic content and buff your species with some bonus; 2) or you stay true to what you envisioned, even if it means not engaging with significant part of the content you paid for and not receiving bonus.

Or playing an empire that is supposed to be monotheistic and believe in a benevolent omnipotent deity, and then coming into contact with the shroud entities - which are clearly none of those things, and are each trying to entice you into forming a covenant with sweet promises and hidden costs (covenants which, somehow, are also binding for the entire population with no exceptions*). The idea of forming a covenant could then be compared to renouncing fidelity with the one true deity and instead making a pact with a demon (which is clearly not as potent as the omnipotent monotheistic deity is believed to be). It would be as credible as a group of scared young adults in a slasher horror movie choosing to split up for no good reason.

* It would be more interesting if the shroud entities each got a faction of its own, which could start growing and building popular pressure, and then be actively embraced or suppressed... and any covenant benefits scaled with the level of support for the shroud entity's faction (perhaps weighted by political power).

 

[Ikael]

Expanding all the possible paths and sub-paths for psionic ascension outside of the downtrodden Covenants, because hell, this ascension has tons of potential:

>> Transubstantiation: Becoming pure energy beings, and then choosing which method you would want to employ in or become anchored into this material plane

---> Biosphere symbiosis. The less traumatic option. Your people would draw energy from the animals and plants of the planets, while helping them flourish in return. Your people would essentially become something akin to "nature spirits". You will lose the option of living on habitats, hiveworld, and ecus, but will gain substantial bonuses due to natural blockers, planet deposits, and anomalies

---> Stellarophiles. Go live inside stars, C'Than style. You can't dwell on planets nor habitats anymore, and there will be a small, painful transition period until you are able to migrate into stars entirely, but stars will act like small "natural ring worlds", and their unique classes will confer unique bonuses as well to your pops (!)

---> Soul crystals. Build soul crystal kilo structures, and entrap the souls of all psionic pops on whichever system it is located + its adjacent systems. It is an expensive process, and your species would not be able to grow organically anymore since encased souls can't bring new ones onto this plane (soul crystals would act like megastructures generating whichever resources your pops used to produce, but multiplied); however, you would have an absolutely insane pop efficiency and bonuses, not to mention that soul crystals themselves would be able to act as powerful defenses. This is a "high investment, high return" type of ascension.

>> The Chosen ones: Your populace developing psionic talents while Ascending one of your leaders (or many) into godhood, possibly enraging other Shroud denizens

---> Bring your leaders beyond LV10 (yep, this ascension would need to come with a big XP gain bonus speed in order to make it feasible), and gain unique classes of leaders (empaths, telekinetics, or oracles), complete with their unique traits. Note that there would be several possible class combinations as well (say, empath governors, oracle commanders, etc, etc). Your commoner telepath pops will also gain bonuses and unique sub-specializations as well

---> Pick and choose how your society will deal with those newfound powers. Do they have to grow organically and freely with no regulation, organize some kind of academy for young talents, forbid certain psyker types, issue a strict license system for a chosen few, or should they possibly make some kind of, huh, sacrifice so their betters can speedrun their godhood?

---> Make your own god. Once one of your leaders reaches a certain point (say, LV 15), he or she will become their own "Shroud Patron", along with their own covenant. Your previous choices, and his / her personal beliefs and character traits, will determine possible bonuses and outcomes for the kind of deity that it will result from this ascension path. Funny interactions with Paragons might ensue, too

>> Into a higher plane: Enlightening your pops into another plane of existence, exploring and eventually colonizing the Shroud realms

---> "Rapture" pops into a higher plane, with a "sublimate planet" decision. The more pops you rapture, the further you might explore and colonize the Shroud. That will mean a hefty pop loss and short-term economic pain. Whether that rapture implies a peaceful ascension or some kind of terrifying mass suicide ritual, it's up to you to decide!

---> Map the shroud little by little. Its own randomly generated "shroud map" would slowly reveal itself, along with possible bonuses, perils, and locations (some routes might demand more raptured pops than others). This process would also make you interact with Shroud Patrons in non-covenant ways, as well as slowly merge the material plane with the Shroud, with unpredictable consequences, too

---> Finally establish a Shroud settlement, granting you the control of an insanely powerful "shroud system", as well as probably getting some kind of blessings for those who are left behind this plane and (might) be aided by your "Shroud emissaries" (aka previously raptured pops). Whether you end up living in literal Hell, or evict the Unbidden from their Celestial Throne, or build your capital at the Worm's lair, or discover the blissful Shambhala, will depend on your empire's choices.