PTSD/Shell shock before the first World War

[Premu]

I just wondered something about the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from soldiers:

The first World War is widely known to be the first war in which PTSD, known as "shell shock" at this time, became a wide spread problem among soldiers. I can understand that the circumstances of the first World War would probably be much more stressfull for the soldiers than wars before - the time of short, large scaled battles was over, instead death could lure every minute by being blasted away from an artillery grenade or by a trench raid. Still I could imagine that soldiers developped similar symptoms even earlier. Seeing your pals getting slaughtered no matter how should shake most people.

Does anyone know of "shell shock" before the first World War?

 

[DoomBunny]

I'm sure it happened, I can't give specific examples of the top of my head, but I'm sure it did happen. However, I think you need to consider some things that would both mitigate the phenomenon itself and its historiographical profile.

For one, PTSD is probably less likely to occur in earlier wars. Aside from the concerns stated (which are indeed correct, with battles generally being shorter, danger being more visibly imminent, and a general ability to relax), one should consider casualty rates themselves. A soldier injured in the First World War had a chance of recovery, and was (on the Western Front at least) unlikely to die of disease (at least before Spanish Flu came along). Compare that to earlier wars, and you find that more men are probably killed outright (bullets and shrapnel inflict horrific injuries, but a guy with a sword is probably more likely to actually finish the job), those that aren't killed outright are probably going to die later (through poor medical care, or simply being trampled into the dirt), and even outside of combat, most fatalities are going to be through disease. Thus you probably have a lesser chance for PTSD to develop in the first place.

Secondly, the historiographical profile is probably smaller, owing to cultural attitudes and sources. On the one hand, a Spartan, Samurai, or Zulu is unlikely to come home from war and tell his family how horrible it all was and how he now suffers from mental health issues (partly due to the shame of mental trauma, and partly due to war itself being looked on more favourably). On the other, the further back one goes in the past, the more limited one's sources become; particularly if one goes back into the 1800s and beyond, we don't have the same mass of first-hand accounts from lower down the chain of command that we do for the First World War and onwards.

As an adjunct to this last point, the First World War was also a break from tradition in that for once the intellectuals in high-society were made to do some actual fighting; part of the reason the First World War develops such a reputation for horror and bloodshed is because one has so many poets, writers, artists, etc... in the frontline (indeed, contrary to another popular myth, the safest thing to be in the First World War was lower class, preferably in a really dirty job like coal mining, railway engineering, or munitions production), and so you end up with a lot more people extolling the horrors, thereby potentially inflating the historiographical phenomenon still further.

 

[Kovax]

From what I recall, there was one "hollow" at Gettysburg where soldiers suffered some kind of trauma from constant cannon fire across their positions. It's been so long since I heard (on a school trip in the 1960s?) it that I don't even know which side they were on.

 

[Yakman]

They used to call it "soldier's heart" in the US Civil War.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/themes/shellshock.html

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/PTSD-overview/basics/history-of-ptsd-vets.asp

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I just wondered something about the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from soldiers:

The first World War is widely known to be the first war in which PTSD, known as "shell shock" at this time, became a wide spread problem among soldiers. I can understand that the circumstances of the first World War would probably be much more stressfull for the soldiers than wars before - the time of short, large scaled battles was over, instead death could lure every minute by being blasted away from an artillery grenade or by a trench raid. Still I could imagine that soldiers developped similar symptoms even earlier. Seeing your pals getting slaughtered no matter how should shake most people.

Does anyone know of "shell shock" before the first World War?

Yes. The American War of the Rebellion has many, many, many such cases on both sides of the conflict. Horrible wounds. Witnessing unspeakable horror. Enduring seige or extended combat.

The medical term during the war for the deep depression we now call PTSD was 'Nostalgia', a longing for home and family far from the battlefield, a place they could never reach again for various reasons.

A documented wave of suicides followed the war, very similar to what we see today, from the invidiauls involved in the conflict.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

From what I recall, there was one "hollow" at Gettysburg where soldiers suffered some kind of trauma from constant cannon fire across their positions. It's been so long since I heard (on a school trip in the 1960s?) it that I don't even know which side they were on.

Almost assuredly you are discussing the 'Devil's Den', the boulder-strewn depression formed in the hollow between Big Round Top and Little Round Top.

 

[The-Doc]

I recommend the book 'Achilles in Vietnam' for a good treatment of the subject.

 

[Herbert West]

Lindibeige to the rescue!

 

[Sanny]

From what I recall, there was one "hollow" at Gettysburg where soldiers suffered some kind of trauma from constant cannon fire across their positions. It's been so long since I heard (on a school trip in the 1960s?) it that I don't even know which side they were on.

Likely Devils Den, it's because the sound of cannon blasts were amplified by the rocks and boulders in the gorge-like terrain. If I remember rightly considering it was a flank the main batteries were nowhere near that fight, it was actually captured Union cannon at Peach Orchard being turned on the Union firing across Devils Den and a few cannons on top of Little Round Top shooting down back at the Rebels. A lot of people forget this about the war but there was a ton of trench combat and long sieges on entrenched positions much like WW1, in many cases the later part of the war was a prelude to WW1, even with the new technology emerging like submarines, repeating rifles, gatling guns, sea mines, armoured trains and there was a stab at inventing a warplane for the Confederacy. The war would have been much much worse if these saw wide use.

 

[petertju]

Wasn't there also some occurence of PTSD in the Crimean War? I seem to recall that vaguely

 

[Arilou]

PTSD is almost certainly as old as war. It's just a question of whether or not it was worth documenting. I do seem to recall some stuff from the 30-years war (Might be in Simplicimuss?) that sounded very much like it.

 

[Yakman]

PTSD is almost certainly as old as war. It's just a question of whether or not it was worth documenting. I do seem to recall some stuff from the 30-years war (Might be in Simplicimuss?) that sounded very much like it.

If you take the "D" out of PTSD, it makes much more sense.

It's almost certainly as old as war, which probably makes it a day younger than humanity. Look at the rituals which pre-modern societies conduct(ed) prior to allowing returning warriors to re-integrate into the community. Some of them can be viewed as a cathartic therapy session.

 

[cacra]

Primates in captivity have shown symptoms associated with PTSD.

It is therefore possible PTSD predates humanity by a significant margin and certainly it predates WW1.

 

[Yakman]

Primates in captivity have shown symptoms associated with PTSD.

It is therefore possible PTSD predates humanity by a significant margin and certainly it predates WW1.

Heck, dogs that are poorly treated act similarly. I'm sure somebody's beaten up enough lab rats to get a measurable reaction.

Like I said, it should be called "PTS" - the D is a bit silly.

 

[Herbert West]

Heck, dogs that are poorly treated act similarly. I'm sure somebody's beaten up enough lab rats to get a measurable reaction.

Like I said, it should be called "PTS" - the D is a bit silly.

Are you disputing it's a disorder?

 

[Yakman]

Are you disputing it's a disorder?

calling it a disorder stigmatizes what's a pretty natural reaction to extreme trauma.

 

[Herbert West]

calling it a disorder stigmatizes what's a pretty natural reaction to extreme trauma.

BS. By the same token, calling whooping cough sickness stigmatizes that it's a pretty natural reaction to pathogens. It's not called "disorder" because the reaction per se is not natural, it's called disorder because the reaction and the behavior elected by it are disruptions of the normal social/psychological function of a human being.

 

[Culise]

calling it a disorder stigmatizes what's a pretty natural reaction to extreme trauma.

Mmmm, but a disorder is simply a behavioral or mental pattern that causes significant distress or impairment. While it's a natural reaction, it does cause distress and impairment and should thus be treated and healed. Plus, post-traumatic stress disorder refers to a variety of mental and behavioural effects that occur as a consequence of a traumatic stress. Just calling it "post-traumatic stress" seems to be missing the fact that not everyone who goes through a traumatic stress actually gets PTSD. While a significant body of the population does, an absolute majority does seem to recover from equally-traumatic stressors without the symptoms of PTSD.

Then again, I also see the stigma of having a mental disorder as being more of a problem with the society that stigmatizes such things than with the disorder itself, and I don't see why we should cater to that sort of person by changing medical terminology. Rather, we should accept that mental disorders exist in the same sense that people can, say, break a bone. I'm not going to argue against the word "fracture" because it's a natural reaction to extreme stresses placed on bone tissue. Of course, that might just be because my entire family has a history of mental disorders, myself included, so I will admit that my thinking on the matter may be rather skewed. I'm just not entirely sure why you seem to be arguing that disorders must be abnormal and stigmatized, and therefore PTSD cannot be a disorder.

EDIT: Ah, as stated far more succinctly above.

 

[Yakman]

BS. By the same token, calling whooping cough sickness stigmatizes that it's a pretty natural reaction to pathogens. It's not called "disorder" because the reaction per se is not natural, it's called disorder because the reaction and the behavior elected by it are disruptions of the normal social/psychological function of a human being.

"there's something wrong with you, you have a disorder, because you experienced terrible things. people should be able to deal with terrible things on their own, but you can't."

that's what the D tells people. and when you tell people that, they don't go seek treatment. in fact, they have STRESS because they experienced TRAUMA. there's no disorder there. it's a natural reaction to stress.

so BS back on you.

 

[AegonVLLI]

"there's something wrong with you, you have a disorder, because you experienced terrible things. people should be able to deal with terrible things on their own, but you can't."

that's what the D tells people. and when you tell people that, they don't go seek treatment. in fact, they have STRESS because they experienced TRAUMA. there's no disorder there. it's a natural reaction to stress.

so BS back on you.

Nope.
People had to fight to have it classified as a disorder. Because it is one.
People affected by it aren't just cowards, deserters etc. They are afflicted by a serious disorder and should get help. That's what the D in PTSD tells you. It's as serious an ailment as any physical wound. It's not just some form of stress that will pass or a particularly "weak" character that breaks were others didn't.
It is a serious disorder and thank god we're finally treating it like one...