Question about future technologies and conquered nations

[Cikka3663]

Seeing the Inca Tinto Flavour raises an interesting question about technological development and existing beyond the time you're expected to. In EU4, a massive issue I had was that nations were generally pushed, through Missions and ideas, through the paths they took in real life, specifically in Europe; as Portugal and Castille you make colonies, as Ottomans you conquer, as Austria you focus on HRE gameplay. This always struck me as weird; any game you ever start in 1444 would be an alternate world. I wouldn't be able to advance down the mission tree if I didn't focus on Angola as Portugal, for instance, but the missions rewarded doing what Portugal did in real life. Flavoured nations were generally encouraged towards roleplaying.

The Inca tree and the flavoured technologies raise an interesting question; will there be unique flavour content beyond what that nation achieved in real life prior to foreign intervention, or will any successful campaign as a conquered nation just eventually stop having unique technological advances?

 

[SAmaster]

I view it like this- if you play these games it's because on some level you like history. If you like British History, you probably have an interest in the American Revolution. Even if the American Revolution isn't something the AI is gonna do a lot, there should still be content for the MANY people who find this history interesting that they want to explore. So there should be some sort of guidelines for the AI to at least potentially get there as opposed to none at all.

Likewise the idea for 'true alternate historic content' is a fantasy since you can't possibly get the Devs to code for every possible outcome. At least not without removing any sense of identity, where you can just slot in any country in any position and get the same content. They kind of did this in CK3 with dynamic formable religions, and to my knowledge it's not a mechanic that people feel added much.

Now, I'm not opposed to inserting ahistorical content at all, and I think they should. But I do think there's a 'plausible' realm it should sit in, and it should be something that isn't going to get the same curated level of content, cause we have actual historic documentation, vs. whatever historical fanfiction the devs can write. Not to say historic fanfiction is bad, it's just not gonna be as deep.

Anyway on the topic of the Incans specifically, I want to see alt-history diplomatic options where they can coordinate with the Mayans or Incans. Alliances are one avenue, but Vassals should be another. A nuisance playing in the New World as colonization occurs is that it's you against the world, with no room for weak Native allies that'll get gobbled up by the spaniards.

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Not to say historic fanfiction is bad, it's just not gonna be as deep.

Especially when PDX keeps shoving its Pixie-Manic-Girl Mary-Sue Waifu "Sweden" down everyone's throats.

Like, we get it, she's a klutz cause she crashed her boat, so everyone wants to protect her. Can we move on to some better fictional characters already?

 

[Victor Emmanuel 2k]

We can think about extended history for the native south americans only if the natives somehow overcome the old world diseases.

As of now, the devs must be designing and reviewing the system, making sure the outbreak of disease into america causes considerable deaths and devastation to an acceptable level to keep it in line with history.

Right now, it is not their prerogative to develop a module for the natives that helps them thwart europeans or their diseases.
It's too much mess.

 

[Pls fix HRE]

The Inca tree and the flavoured technologies raise an interesting question; will there be unique flavour content beyond what that nation achieved in real life prior to foreign intervention, or will any successful campaign as a conquered nation just eventually stop having unique technological advances?

Its exactly as you said. Most countrys wont even get a single unique technological advance. Albania stopped being independent 50 years before the Aztecs Empire was conquered and if lucky it will copy the unique technological advances of its neighbours at best who will also not go very far due to losing their independence decades before. Thats just how Paradox games work if your country didnt make it very far into the timeline.

 

[Victor Emmanuel 2k]

Its exactly as you said. Most countrys wont even get a single unique technological advance. Albania stopped being independent 50 years before the Aztecs Empire was conquered and if lucky it will copy the unique technological advances of its neighbours at best who will also not go very far due to losing their independence decades before. Thats just how Paradox games work if your country didnt make it very far into the timeline.

Well, it's not the Paradox' fault that a native country didn't make it very far into the timeline.

Any attempt by the devs at designing an extended gameplay flavour for natives will surely be met with harsh judgment from the community.
Lack of adequate information on those countries further adds to this problem.

 

[Cikka3663]

I view it like this- if you play these games it's because on some level you like history. If you like British History, you probably have an interest in the American Revolution. Even if the American Revolution isn't something the AI is gonna do a lot, there should still be content for the MANY people who find this history interesting that they want to explore. So there should be some sort of guidelines for the AI to at least potentially get there as opposed to none at all.

Likewise the idea for 'true alternate historic content' is a fantasy since you can't possibly get the Devs to code for every possible outcome. At least not without removing any sense of identity, where you can just slot in any country in any position and get the same content. They kind of did this in CK3 with dynamic formable religions, and to my knowledge it's not a mechanic that people feel added much.

Now, I'm not opposed to inserting ahistorical content at all, and I think they should. But I do think there's a 'plausible' realm it should sit in, and it should be something that isn't going to get the same curated level of content, cause we have actual historic documentation, vs. whatever historical fanfiction the devs can write. Not to say historic fanfiction is bad, it's just not gonna be as deep.

Anyway on the topic of the Incans specifically, I want to see alt-history diplomatic options where they can coordinate with the Mayans or Incans. Alliances are one avenue, but Vassals should be another. A nuisance playing in the New World as colonization occurs is that it's you against the world, with no room for weak Native allies that'll get gobbled up by the spaniards.

I think my main issue is pretty simple; you can’t have perfect replications of history either. If I’m playing portugal, I want the option to do something Europe-focused. If I’m playing an indigenous nation, I want there to be a reward for surviving the genocide of the population and answering back, because it’s a video game and the europeans get rewards for that shit. A GSG shouldn’t just be a place for europeans to rp monarchist fantasies of colonial conquest.

Besides, it’s not like Britain decided to bring back the Angevin Empire in real life. We’re operating on a level of distance from history here for a reason. And it’s just silly to pretend what is inherently an alternate history game is not an alternate history game.

 

[Lindestria]

Britain didn't stop claiming the throne of France till 1802; It was never particularly feasible beyond the title, but it's not like they ever really gave up on the Angevin claims for the game period.

 

[SAmaster]

I think my main issue is pretty simple; you can’t have perfect replications of history either. If I’m playing portugal, I want the option to do something Europe-focused. If I’m playing an indigenous nation, I want there to be a reward for surviving the genocide of the population and answering back, because it’s a video game and the europeans get rewards for that shit. A GSG shouldn’t just be a place for europeans to rp monarchist fantasies of colonial conquest.

Besides, it’s not like Britain decided to bring back the Angevin Empire in real life. We’re operating on a level of distance from history here for a reason. And it’s just silly to pretend what is inherently an alternate history game is not an alternate history game.

Which is why I'm not asking for perfect history. I'm asking for ballpark history.

It's a rather weak strawman argument to use.

 

[MasterPaw]

Some Devs said they focused on historical content for launch
There are some exception like Incas getting some late unique advance

 

[Fawr]

Right now, it is not their prerogative to develop a module for the natives that helps them thwart europeans or their diseases.

They haven't yet said anything about the gods that give a disease resistance buff and how the game's populations numbers are balanced around that mechanic. Do you get historical outcomes if everyone takes them, or if no-one takes them, or if a fraction of people take them? Is it a no-brainer to take or not take that god, or will the AI and good players sometimes take it?

Its exactly as you said. Most countrys wont even get a single unique technological advance. Albania stopped being independent 50 years before the Aztecs Empire was conquered and if lucky it will copy the unique technological advances of its neighbours at best who will also not go very far due to losing their independence decades before. Thats just how Paradox games work if your country didnt make it very far into the timeline.

I would expect them to spend the most time on content that will impact players. If there are 10% of the player base playing England and 1% playing Albania, then I'd expect more time dedicated to English content than Albanian content as a day of content designer time provides a higher value for money there. 10:1 might not be the right answer as there are other factors at play though, and you don't want players to feel like only 10 countries are playable (EU1 style). Countries played by players frequently will often diverge from history and so alt-history for them is quite important.

Content that happens every game is more valuable than content that only rarely happens. If 95% of games finish before 1700, then time spent on an event that happens in 1750 will impact less players than time spent on an event that happens in 1400. 20:1 isn't the correct ratio of course as you don't want people to feel like they have to quit in 1700. Similarly if Albania is conquered in most games before 1600 then content after 1600 is a relatively low priority for their time.

Sometimes you interact with other countries content. If you are playing Albania and the Ottomans (or equivalent) never rises then you might feel cheated out of the boss fight. The Ottoman content (and how it interacts with neighbours like Byzantine content) is relevant to you. Similarly if you are the Castilians then the content in Mexico is relevant to you. Given that one design principle is that the game should allow you to "make your mark on history", I hope that historical situations are given more time than alt-history ones when we consider AI countries. If you play as Castile hoping for a colonial game and bump into a Sunset Invasion then you will feel duped. Game rules can help, but I think in a game like this most people are looking for a plausible historical experience most of the time. How often was Sunset Invasion actually turned on by the small fraction of people who actually purchased it (despite giving a late game challenge to part of the world without one)? This means that every country needs some content so that your country is playing in a believable background world. But this should impact how much developer time is spent on history vs alt history for those situations.

Of course we shouldn't neglect generic content. That is the content you will interact with most often in most playthroughs as it applies to all or most countries. Having plausible mechanics for how the black death spreads, the Colombian exchange (in both directions), or what a succession crisis might look like. Content that impacts major parts of the world is similar, like the reformation, or how one dynasty will replace another in China (rather than 2 dynasties living together).