Religion: what each in-game religion means and what bonuses they give.

[Incompetent]

OK, I'll put down some ideas here which don't seem to have attracted too much criticism. I've put in italics the ones which will probably get a name change:

Catholic = in communion with Rome (note: not necessarily Latin Rites)
Orthodox = Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, other Christians who split off from Rome long before 1419
Protestant = Medieval or Reformation breakaways from the Catholic church who are still in favour of a strong Church organisation (likely under state control)
Reformed = Medieval or Reformation breakaways from the Catholic church who are opposed to the state etc taking over where Rome left off

Sunni = The default religion of the Caliphate, along with such variations as would be tolerated by such a Caliphate (eg some Sufi orders)

Mutazelite = Islamic sect originating in Cordoba, considered heretical by the Sunnis. More innovative and philosophical than Sunni Islam on the whole. Also sects which would be seen as 'closer' to the Mutazelites than the Sunnis (eg the Maya may not end up purely Mutazelite, but if they became broadly Muslim it would be a Cordoban kind of Islam they'd adopt).

Hinduism = Vedic religions
Buddhism = what it says
(I don't know enough about these to say more)

Confucianism = generic religion, but fairly resilient
Pagan = generic proto-religion, one step above whatever Natives go in for in terms of resilience to assimilation

As for the bonuses:

Diplomats: +2 for Catholic; +0 for Confucian and Pagan, as their lack of an international religious community means they are somewhat isolated diplomatically; +1 for everyone else

Colonists: Depends how fast we want various countries to colonise

Tech speed: Don't know, but the current Pagan penalty is probably excessive

Taxes: Good taxes for Protestant (church is controlled by the state); fairly good taxes for Orthodox (similar reason); bad taxes for Catholic and Reformed (church is independent of the state to a large extent); decent taxes for Muslims (religiously mandated taxation); don't know about the rest.

Trade/Production: bad production/trade if religion interfered a lot in these areas, or discouraged them.

Missionaries: big bonus for all Christians and Muslims (Sunni and Catholic especially); moderate bonus for Buddhists; 0 or even negative for Hindu and Pagan, as these are not evangelical; don't know for Confucian

Stability: Very good stab for Catholic and Orthodox; quite good for Sunni and Protestant; bad stab for Pagan and Reformed; don't know about the rest

 

[unmerged(33565)]

The following is a complete list of the religions we have to play with (in case you didn't know), grouped approximately into 'marriage groups':

Catholic (with CRC)
Protestant
Reformed
Orthodox

Sunni
Shiite
Hindu
Buddhist
Confucian

Pagan

Now, I don't propose we completely redo the religious set-up, as there are just too many hard-coded interactions to worry about, and besides we are going for alternate history rather than Fantasia. Still, it's worth considering the current religious bonuses, which make the Western Christian religions are significantly better than all the rest.

Also, we have to look at what each religion actually means. Here are a few ideas:

Catholic = in communion with Rome (note: not necessarily Latin Rites)
Orthodox = Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, other Christians who split off from Rome long before 1419
Protestant = Medieval or Reformation breakaways from the Catholic church, whose beliefs somewhat resemble those of Luther
Reformed = Medieval or Reformation breakaways from the Catholic church, whose beliefs somewhat resemble those of Calvin

Sunni = The default religion of the Caliphate, along with such variations as would be tolerated by such a Caliphate (eg some Sufi orders)
Shiite = Sects deemed heretical by the Caliphate (Alevis, Twelver Shiites, Ibadhis etc)

Hindu = Vedic religions
Buddhist = what it says
Confucian = what it says; it's doubtful whether we can call this a religion anyway
(I don't know enough about these to say more, but see below on Confucian)

Pagan = anything else


Now what with changes that are taking place around the Aberrated world, it looks like we'll need a second Pagan - an umbrella classification, but for religions which are much more resilient than the fragile 'Pagan', and given to states which can't be pushed around so easily. At the moment, it's looking like Confucianism is going to be a fairly marginal 'religion', as its historical influence was almost entirely due to the Chinese state. Should we turn 'Confucian' into a generic religion?

Religion, Let me say this AGGGGGG....

God knows I wish I could get a more diverse grouping for what I want to do in India. Anyone who works in Asia and has about the ideas that I do will run into the same problems. I basically had to take cultures, not really religions into account when I redid India conflicts.... But I really wish i could have done both and have had more then 2 different religions to recode the Northern section with.

However I do understand the Euro first stuff, and support that...

As far as china goes, I think the main reason for making a new religion is so that it is isolated from it surrounding counters and has no natural allies.

 

[Incompetent]

Religion, Let me say this AGGGGGG....

God knows I wish I could get a more diverse grouping for what I want to do in India. Anyone who works in Asia and has about the ideas that I do will run into the same problems. I basically had to take cultures, not really religions into account when I redid India conflicts.... But I really wish i could have done both and have had more then 2 different religions to recode the Northern section with.

However I do understand the Euro first stuff, and support that...

As far as china goes, I think the main reason for making a new religion is so that it is isolated from it surrounding counters and has no natural allies.

Well, the problem with giving India Orthodox, Catholic etc to play with is that they be rather too easy for Europeans to take over and rule. I would suggest though that if Confucian becomes a generic religion, you could use it to represent various minor religious movements in India. We could also give a very broad interpretation of 'Shiite', seeing as if we make Persia Buddhist or whatever, there will be no genuinely Shiite powers. But then we have to consider how that would affect Sunni countries.

I don't think China is meant to be particularly inward-looking in Abe, so we don't need a religion to cut them off from the outside world. In vanilla, it seems Confucian was introduced as a religion and made quite bad, along with the bad 'china' tech group, purely to stop China taking over the world with its enormous wealth and power. We need a new approach here to say the least.

 

[Rythin]

Icompetent,
What's that what you intend to change? religions.csv or just a concept?

 

[Incompetent]

Icompetent,
What's that what you intend to change? religions.csv or just a concept?

Both - there's no sense in giving a generic religion -20% to tax value and suchlike, and in general the stronger religion should be at least as good as Pagan. Some of the other religions could do with tweaking as well - did religion really allow Protestant countries to be more diplomatically active than Orthodox ones, for example? I would suggest a blanket +1 diplomat/year for most religions, with +2 for Catholic/CRC (by the power of the Church as an instrument of diplomacy) and +0 only for Confucian/Pagan, as they're supposed to be quite isolated.

 

[Rythin]

In vanilla those bonuses' intention wasn't to reflect a philosophy of particuliar religion. It was rather a way of giving advantages to particuliar countries. Orthodox nations weren't inactive diplomatically because they were Orthodox, but because they lied in Eastern Europe. And Johan assigned one thing to the other because it was easier for him and researchers.

Of course it is not an issue in Abbie's case, as it's history is different from the one from vanilla - you know, 'something has gone wrong. terribly wrong' I like your ideas about diplomatic influence. However I think Protestant/Reformed countries should have their trade boost - they were more tolerant thus more open thus more capable of meeting new people thus more capable of trading with them.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

I would suggest:
Catholic (with CRC)
Protestant
Reformed
Orthodox

Keep these as is.



Sunni
Shiite

Hmm... who says Sunni and shiite even exist in Abe? I mean, we could just say that the only muslims in Abe was the ones we call Sunni in our reality (I don't remember the details, but just say that the sunni-guy won the war of leadership of Islam to such a degree shiite didn't break off) and make shiite some form av muslim group the break off later in the game... let's say Granada decides the Caliphate is no good any more and thus decides to create their own branch of Shiite (renaming the two branches as appropriate).



Hindu
Buddhist

Keep



Confucian
Pagan

I like the idea of making confucian into a sort of generic religion... let's just say Pagan remains pagan and we rename confucian into "polytheist" or whatever seems fit.


And about China... I feel buddhist seems to be a resonable religion to give the states, perhaps with a bit of Hindu (unhistorical, abberated growth ^^) and even giving the Chinese city states the option of becoming christian later on, when they encounter Europeans.

 

[Rythin]

I like the idea of making confucian into a sort of generic religion... let's just say Pagan remains pagan and we rename confucian into "polytheist" or whatever seems fit.

Or maybe Satanism? Decadency and debauchery of masses in mid 17 cent. provoked Europe-wide Satanistic wars

 

[Incompetent]

<bump>

 

[MattyG]

In terms of religions, I like the idea that we rename Confucian, but not to Polyteistic, as this also describes Hundu and Pagan faiths. Pagan can stay as it is, or you could rename it Animist if you like. The difference with something like the Roman/Greek faiths and Confucian in game terms would be that they are part of more highly structured and centralized societies. Confucianism supported a centralized, structured society in a way that 'pagan' faiths did not. Likewise Hinduism and the specific caste-dense society it belongs to also has a very strong social order within which it is embedded.

So, perhaps we could just keep Hindu and Pagan but rename Confucian into something like Organized Polytheism. Only it would be good to find one world and with better flavour. Can't think of anything.

The idea that there is only Sunni is interesting but impossible. Every faith has heresies, branches, sects and more. People just don't think the same way and no faith has ever been able to keep anything pure. In pagan faiths it doesn't matter so much, they add a new god, write some new stories, have a new ceremony and everyone goes home drunk and high and happy. Sunni will splinter and fracture just as Catholicism has.


As far as attributes go, the main thing I want to see changed is a reduction in the number of colonists for Catholics. Part of slowing down colonisation - and making it more flexible and intriguing - will require not just fewer explorers later, and not just increasing the CDM for non-coastal provinces, but also stopping the flood of colonists that a Narrowminded Catholic country generates. It what enables Eire to paint North America green before anyone else even smells the flowers on the breeze of Bermuda (to mangle a great song lyric).

MattyG

 

[unmerged(26209)]

The idea that there is only Sunni is interesting but impossible. Every faith has heresies, branches, sects and more. People just don't think the same way and no faith has ever been able to keep anything pure. In pagan faiths it doesn't matter so much, they add a new god, write some new stories, have a new ceremony and everyone goes home drunk and high and happy. Sunni will splinter and fracture just as Catholicism has.

What I meant was that sunni could begin the game as the only major, organized branch of Islam, like catholicism beginning the game as the only major, organized branch of western christianity. I did not mean by any way that sunni would be the _only_ branch, but rather that it should be only really strong one at the beginning, and later divide, sort of like catholicism, and as talks have been going on about not having Persia muslim, there would really only Oman left as Shi'ite, and well... one country does not constitute a religious tag (there is, for example, no anglicanism tag in the game, nor any Aztec religion tag and so on).
Plus, I like the idea of Granada breaking away from the Caliphate, as it would give a reason to the Caliphate and Granada not overrunning Europe on a conquest spree together.

 

[yourworstnightm]

So shiite could be some kind of reformed religon of islam, works fine by me, could create a lot of tension between Granada and The kaliphate.

 

[Error_page_07]

some ideas

Orthodox = Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, other Christians who split off from Rome long before 1419

There was schizm in 1054...
------------------------------

Stability: Very good stab for Catholic and Orthodox; quite good for Sunni and Protestant; bad stab for Pagan and Reformed; don't know about the rest

I think that budhists can have also good stability, cause they're peaceful(at least I think they are).

et's just say Pagan remains pagan and we rename confucian into "polytheist" or whatever seems fit.

aren't polytheists pagans?

I mean, we could just say that the only muslims in Abe was the ones we call Sunni in our reality (I don't remember the details, but just say that the sunni-guy won the war of leadership of Islam to such a degree shiite didn't break off)

If Abe is so crazy as I see, why don't let shiites to win??They coul become veery good warriors...

Every faith has heresies, branches, sects and more. People just don't think the same way and no faith has ever been able to keep anything pure.

... and then, sunnies could become somethink like reformed/protestant moslems(?). IIRC, in the game shiites' high moral was argumented by they kind of stealth/fanatic life. So why don't we make sunni some sort of liberal, trade-like rebel fraction of shiites?

and later divide, sort of like catholicism (sunni)

To help my thoughts, what about events for shiite nations: "My lord, there are rebellions everywhere, people demand freedom, blahblahblah..." one of effects - con
vert to sunni(liberal traders)...

And one little OT: if Europe is totally changed, why do you tend to preserve China as power?? Why don't we divide them? Well, "The Japany has gone crazy and attacked China, taking most of the coastal provinces. The Manchu saw a great opportunity, so they helped japanese and took part of northern China, forcing chinese to go more deeper to continent." And that could cause some events in which China decides if to reconquer, or to stabilize situation and look for some western lands ...
EDIT: and maybe we can create new nation in part of Japan.... (but that's BIG offtopic)

 

[Incompetent]

why do you tend to preserve China as power??

We don't; we just haven't Aberrated the Far East yet. Check out this thread.

 

[Error_page_07]

We don't; we just haven't Aberrated the Far East yet. Check out this thread.

Oh, sorry.
*Am I blind or what??*

 

[MattyG]

What I meant was that sunni could begin the game as the only major, organized branch of Islam, like catholicism beginning the game as the only major, organized branch of western christianity. I did not mean by any way that sunni would be the _only_ branch, but rather that it should be only really strong one at the beginning, and later divide, sort of like catholicism, and as talks have been going on about not having Persia muslim, there would really only Oman left as Shi'ite, and well... one country does not constitute a religious tag (there is, for example, no anglicanism tag in the game, nor any Aztec religion tag and so on).
Plus, I like the idea of Granada breaking away from the Caliphate, as it would give a reason to the Caliphate and Granada not overrunning Europe on a conquest spree together.

It would make some sense the that Granada/Cordoba becomes 'Shiite'. And yet not Shiite, because we will use another name for it.

Granada/Cordoba has survived the period of Christian crusading. This means that to some degree the moors and the christian europeans have neotiated a degree of acceptance of one another, just as they did with the Ottomans. Cultures go to war over their differences until it exhausts them, there is no clear winner and they reach a kind of detente. This has happened for Cordoba. This detente involves a level of understanding that leads also to a guarded appreciation, at least in some quarters. It is through this channel that the schism emerges.

The faith in Cordoba has its own 'reformation'. Distant from the Caliph and the orthodoxy in the east that no longer serves their political agenda or their changing worldview, many clerics in the west have developed other notions of islam, an interpretation of the Qu'ran that is on many levels dramatically different to that in the east. It gains support of the king because it serves the political elites, their own sub-cultural changes and their tussle for power with the Caliphate for the hearts and minds of North Africa. Much as the reformation got establshied because it became useful for princes, dukes and kings to support it, the temporal power in Cordoba supports the reformist movement because it plays into their hands.

So, Cordoba becomes the home of the reformation and our new 'shiite' movement. How much these ideas trasnport themselves back to the east I will leave for others to discuss.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

Confucian is not a "generic" religion. It is a philosophy stressing Filial piety or worship of ancestors along side the traditional pantheon of Chinese gods etc. It also stressed scholastic achievement while not rewarding original thought, it was better to uphold what came before then to strive for something new.

It was also the religion of the Chinese Imperial beuracracy...

Budhists, are essentially a subset of Hinduism, since its' goal is to release you from the reincarnation cycle, that was part of Hinduism. Hell, the Budha WAS a Hindu! But it can overlay any number of other religions with varying degrees of success. It had no trouble taking root in Japan in part because it did not preclude seeing the Emperor as divine and didn't invalidate the existing Japanese pantheon of gods.

Shia or Shiite is as much a sect of Islam as it is a faction in a dynastic squabble. The schism was over who was the legitimate heir to Mohamed. It would be safe to say that if you have the Caliphate around that Shia is not a viable religion, since the argument seems to have been settled!

There are a few provinces in India particularly along the Malabar coast that could be switched over to Orthodox under the right conditions. There was already a rather large Christian community there when the Portuguese arrived, and they were the ones that put up the most fight resisting them. There was about 2 million of them in the region and they were and are still considered to be high caste by the Hindus. So it would be fairly easy if Byzantium should come a callin' rather then Portugal they would have a ready group to rely upon.

Hope this helps.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

Confucian is not a "generic" religion. It is a philosophy stressing Filial piety or worship of ancestors along side the traditional pantheon of Chinese gods etc. It also stressed scholastic achievement while not rewarding original thought, it was better to uphold what came before then to strive for something new.

It was also the religion of the Chinese Imperial beuracracy...

We can chagne it gentlemen, we have the technology. =)

No, seriously, just becuse the tag says confucian, it doesn't mean we can't change it to represent something else.

Budhists, are essentially a subset of Hinduism, since its' goal is to release you from the reincarnation cycle, that was part of Hinduism. Hell, the Budha WAS a Hindu! But it can overlay any number of other religions with varying degrees of success. It had no trouble taking root in Japan in part because it did not preclude seeing the Emperor as divine and didn't invalidate the existing Japanese pantheon of gods.

If, as disgussed in that thread, the SE has a khmer empire with a hindu state religion, the buddhists are prolly going to have their strongest hold in China in this game.

There are a few provinces in India particularly along the Malabar coast that could be switched over to Orthodox under the right conditions. There was already a rather large Christian community there when the Portuguese arrived, and they were the ones that put up the most fight resisting them. There was about 2 million of them in the region and they were and are still considered to be high caste by the Hindus. So it would be fairly easy if Byzantium should come a callin' rather then Portugal they would have a ready group to rely upon.

I have no idea what has been discussed about India, but I like that idea a lot.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

We can chagne it gentlemen, we have the technology. =)

No, seriously, just becuse the tag says confucian, it doesn't mean we can't change it to represent something else.


If, as disgussed in that thread, the SE has a khmer empire with a hindu state religion, the buddhists are prolly going to have their strongest hold in China in this game.

Celyon and the tip of india will be buddhist too. Celyon will end being a reletivly strong regional trading power, and maybe even a colonial power in the east indians.

I have no idea what has been discussed about India, but I like that idea a lot.

Ummm, guess it could be done. The only problem with it is the timeing of it. In the second half of the 13 century there is a major conflict between two of the major powers in the north of India, and making a provance into a wrong religon provance at that time could cause some problems. Especailly in that area, the main area that is being fought over.

 

[Imrryran]

So, Cordoba becomes the home of the reformation and our new 'shiite' movement.

I think there is another mean to "create" a new religion without using the old ones (which could be used elsewhere).

You can write events which prevent the nation from moving the DP sliders beyond some limits. For example, there could be a cordobian event which fire when innovation is below 5 and offer the choice to get (A)+2inno or (B)-3stab. You could even have only one choice to maintain the sliders between the limits.