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Religion: what each in-game religion means and what bonuses they give.

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Confucianism was not really a religion but more of a Philosophy and way of thought than a faith.It insists on Ancestor worship but I know for a fact alot of people practiced Confucianism whilst being Muslim/Christian and so forth.I dont see a Confucist India, but rather, a Buddhist upper class and a Hindu Brahma controlled states.The Emirate of Sindh is the last Muslim entity in India.

Anyway, bonuses

Mutazelite and Sunni Islams should have some sort of advanced pointers
Sunni perhaps 1
Mutazelite 2
 
Calipah said:
Confucianism was not really a religion but more of a Philosophy and way of thought than a faith.It insists on Ancestor worship but I know for a fact alot of people practiced Confucianism whilst being Muslim/Christian and so forth.I dont see a Confucist India, but rather, a Buddhist upper class and a Hindu Brahma controlled states.The Emirate of Sindh is the last Muslim entity in India.

Anyway, bonuses

Mutazelite and Sunni Islams should have some sort of advanced pointers
Sunni perhaps 1
Mutazelite 2
Click to expand...

Calipah,

I am not certain what you mean by 'advanced pointers' and the ratings you give. Please elucidate!
 
Each and every religion in the game has modifiers based on the following :

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x

I meant techspeed, since the Islamic World's centers of learning have survived, Cordoba, Granada, Seville, Baghdad, Cairo ....not Damascus Im afraid but not so critical, and much of the old traditional empires have survived, I believe Muslims should get some techspeeds to ensure that even though they have muslim tech, they would at least be somewhat in the times so to speak.

I also believe Mutazelite countries should get more missionaries and colonists whilst sunni countries should get morale and a bit more tax income.

Mutazelites are by nature, expansionistic , thus the missionaries and colonists.
Sunni Countries are more proud of their heritage and see the Mutazelites are heretics, not to mention are still being led by a Caliphate - thus the morale.As for tax income, its more to do with the fact that the Sunni Muslims are still mostly practicing laws of the Quran, whilst in Cordoba for example, it is still subject to additions and changes, not to mention reductions.
 
Calipah said:
Each and every religion in the game has modifiers based on the following :

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x

I meant techspeed, since the Islamic World's centers of learning have survived, Cordoba, Granada, Seville, Baghdad, Cairo ....not Damascus Im afraid but not so critical, and much of the old traditional empires have survived, I believe Muslims should get some techspeeds to ensure that even though they have muslim tech, they would at least be somewhat in the times so to speak.
Click to expand...

Cool. I think your reasoning is sound.

Calipah said:
I also believe Mutazelite countries should get more missionaries and colonists whilst sunni countries should get morale and a bit more tax income.

Mutazelites are by nature, expansionistic , thus the missionaries and colonists.
Sunni Countries are more proud of their heritage and see the Mutazelites are heretics, not to mention are still being led by a Caliphate - thus the morale.As for tax income, its more to do with the fact that the Sunni Muslims are still mostly practicing laws of the Quran, whilst in Cordoba for example, it is still subject to additions and changes, not to mention reductions.
Click to expand...

OK, I cann see where you are coming from. I will make some changes to both, with Sunni getting better morale and tax, shiite getting more missionaries and colonists.

I have to say, the missionaries one surprises me, but you know best!
 
Well, were trying to balance the innovativeness bad effects which are incured upon the colonial and missionary modifiers of Cordoba for example.

You never see them truly colonize, and SP, almost impossible if ur going to be innovative.
 
Calipah said:
Well, were trying to balance the innovativeness bad effects which are incured upon the colonial and missionary modifiers of Cordoba for example.

You never see them truly colonize, and SP, almost impossible if ur going to be innovative.
Click to expand...

Snuck it into the latest beta by 20 minutes ... :D
 
By the way Matty, in the Mutazelite file the event "The Debate and essence of the Quran' is a bit...weird.I think I was high then or something :D

How about changing it to "The Nature of the Quran" ?
 
Calipah said:
By the way Matty, in the Mutazelite file the event "The Debate and essence of the Quran' is a bit...weird.I think I was high then or something :D

How about changing it to "The Nature of the Quran" ?
Click to expand...


You are a good Muslim, so I know you meant that you were high on the joy of the sunnah, yes? ;)

I'll make the change for 6.06.
 
Mostly high on Diet Pepsi or Coke :p
 
Calipah said:
I meant techspeed, since the Islamic World's centers of learning have survived, Cordoba, Granada, Seville, Baghdad, Cairo ....not Damascus Im afraid but not so critical, and much of the old traditional empires have survived, I believe Muslims should get some techspeeds to ensure that even though they have muslim tech, they would at least be somewhat in the times so to speak.
Click to expand...

Then again, the general region in which the Caliphate starts is also quite a bit richer than Europe is, in most regions at least. So I am not sure how it would fit for balance, but that's what the beta's are for I suppose.

Besides which, I don't think the North African muslims are much more innovative than in vanilla, but they might deserve Orthodox in vanilla, so that's not too big a point.

But the Caliphate and especially Cordoba might get a bit overpowered, again, with these changes. But maybe not :)
 
Avernite said:
Then again, the general region in which the Caliphate starts is also quite a bit richer than Europe is, in most regions at least. So I am not sure how it would fit for balance, but that's what the beta's are for I suppose.

Besides which, I don't think the North African muslims are much more innovative than in vanilla, but they might deserve Orthodox in vanilla, so that's not too big a point.

But the Caliphate and especially Cordoba might get a bit overpowered, again, with these changes. But maybe not :)
Click to expand...

Before anyone replies to this regarding power levels of Cordoba/Caliphate, please do that in one of the threads for those countries. :D

That said, these are very valid comments. Of the 'majors' Caliphate, Cordoba and Byzantium start with the most provinces, and all three have a CoT (plus gold in Toledo). But we have tried to balance these out through other elements.
 
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Avernite said:
Then again, the general region in which the Caliphate starts is also quite a bit richer than Europe is, in most regions at least. So I am not sure how it would fit for balance, but that's what the beta's are for I suppose.

Besides which, I don't think the North African muslims are much more innovative than in vanilla, but they might deserve Orthodox in vanilla, so that's not too big a point.

But the Caliphate and especially Cordoba might get a bit overpowered, again, with these changes. But maybe not :)
Click to expand...

Actually, when taking in the historical perspective of things,North Africans were innovative enough for them to establish the basics of logarithims and Higher Mathematics in the 14th century.North Africa declined only under the loss of Muslim power in the med which hasnt occured in Abberation .Even though North Africa was reinvigorated by a horde of Moorish refugees,it declined by the Political fracture of the North African states.

I guess the mod seeks to establish a modem of balance BUT we only raised them by one or two, which in the big picture, isnt much.The Protestants and Reformed states get a similar rise of around 1 or 2 and that usually dosent mean they outrank Catholic nations.

I look at things from a plausible view, and the argument that the Caliphate is overpowered has been outdated - it now plays moderatly, usually not expanding beyond Arabia and the levant.
 
The Islamic world is not overpowered in Interregnum. It is - overall - still underpowered a little. It might be that Cordoba and the Caliphate are a little too strong for balance issues nation vrs nation, and this we will continue to look at. But, as Calipah says, this is Ab.... no it isn't Calipah ... it's Interregnum!
 
I just figured adding BOTH techspeed AND missionaries/colonists/morale at the same time might make testing a little bit harder ;)

Besides which, I am allways looking out to ensure the Muslims stay a bit weak, I wanna be able to play the KoJ succesfully, afterall :D ;)
 
The vanilla tech structure is made 'with hindsight' by looking at how advanced these countries were in 1819 in real life. It makes no sense in Interregnum (or at least hasn't been justified) and needs to be overhauled. However, that's a topic for another thread.

Also, we should distinguish from the effects of a particular religion, and the effects of geography, economy, rulers etc. A Sunni Zanj makes its money from trade, but so would a Mutazelite one, a Pagan one or whatever else. So this is not a reason to give Sunni a trade boost. Eire colonises a lot, but its colonial endeavours are driven more by economics than Catholicism. Generally we should take away all religious bonuses (such as the Catholic colonist bonus) intended to produce a 'historical' outcome, as there's no such thing, and focus on what the religion actually encouraged and discouraged.
 
Incompetant,

Do you think we should remove ALL of the religious bonuses and detriments?

I like the idea personally.

Others?
 
MattyG said:
Incompetant,

Do you think we should remove ALL of the religious bonuses and detriments?

I like the idea personally.

Others?
Click to expand...

Or make all the religions give the same bonuses/penalties, yes. That would be a good starting position, but there are still some religious bonuses which make sense, such as extra missionaries for Christians/Muslims or a techspeed bonus for Mutazelites.
 
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Incompetent said:
Or make all the religions give the same bonuses/penalties, yes. That would be a good starting position, but there are still some religious bonuses which make sense, such as extra missionaries for Christians/Muslims or a techspeed bonus for Mutazelites.
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One ought to accept that religion is a part of culture and that it effects the the mechanics of a culture. This is partly done through DP sliders (changing a religion to Protestant from Catholic usually increases Innovative and therefore effects techspeed and colonists), but we can nudge things a little. Things I agree with:

Mutazelite: tech increase
CRC: morale bonus
Protestant: production bonus
Reformed: production bonus

Most of the others I cannot speak to, except that the Stability modifiers should stay.

Matty
 
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