Request for Redrawing of Northern Asia

[JKiller96]

More updated;

There was another thread I started about Yeren and it was made more into about Mongolia but this one is specifically about all of northern Asia from Sakhalin to Uzbek. There were some pretty awesome maps shown from the previous thread and we were able to piece together a more accurate representation of the area. I know there are certain people who love to play in this area (like me) and would very much love to see improvement, not just from a historical perspective but a game play one as well.

So far here is what we have come up with;

Summary of changes from west to east
-Yarkand a vassal of Chagatai
-Independent Selkup tribe of Pegaya Orda (Tengri, Selkup) to the east of Uzbek with an additional province from them (AKA the Skewbald Horde, fought the Russians in the 1500's)
-New Siberian Kirghiz tribe of Yenisei (Kyrgyz, Tengri) Would be a vassal of Oirat. Also a new province in their east making them a 4 province minor.
-Sarig Yogir granted Yumen as Ming didn't very thoroughly control the region and probably not Yumen city.
-Mongolia has cores on Oirat to encourage aggressiveness after their Personal Union (Rather than vassalage) ends.
-New Tumed (Tengri/Vajrayana, Tumed) tribe between Ming and Mongolia to represent the Tumed and Ordos. Vassal of Mongolia (Instead of Oirat) to balance the two.
-Buryats moved further west.
-Chakhar/Chahar (Tengri, Chahar) split from Khorchin in the south to represent their tribe.
-Yeren split into Solon Khanate (Tengri, Evenki or Solon) in the west/north, Oroqen (Tengri, Manchu or Oroqen) in centre/south, and the Nivkh (Tengri, Nivkh/Gilyak) in the northeast, with Sakhalin split in two to represent the Nivkh north and Ainu south.

IF YOU HAVE SUGGESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO RESPOND! Maps and book recommendations are the best sources.
@Trin Tragula @DDRJake

 

[Warial]

-Sarig Yogir granted Yumen as Ming didn't very thoroughly control the region and probably not Yumen city.

Source? Apart from that, looks great.

 

[JKiller96]

Source? Apart from that, looks great.

From the maps on the Yeren page, none of them had ming as controlling the Yumen area. I also read it in a text I believe. Althought it was more about the Talkamankan area, I will have to find it.
I took everyone's sources seriously though.

 

[Warial]

Another map showing that the Daur were in the area during EU4's timeframe. Here they are labeled DAGUUR

When it comes to the area of Anxi, this map shows the period after expansion by Altan Khan of Tumed(so late XVI century).

year 1582

year 1600

year 1637

@JKiller96 Your map is wrong about Tumed & Ordos & Khoshut....(if the map is in 1444). As you know Ming's map became more and more small from 1368-1644

Wudadi's map also portray the situation after this period.

Now take a look at the 1437 and 1453 maps:

Spoiler

After his father died Esen [of Oirats] inherited his position as taishi for the reigning Chinggisid khan Togtoo-Bukha (titled Taisung, 1433–52). In 1443–45 he subjugated the Chaghatayid principality of Hami [Kara Del] and the three MING DYNASTY guards (wei), including the Chigil Mongolian Guard, in eastern Gansu.

So yes, you are right to not give Ming the Anxi region, but instead of Sarig Yogir it should go to Oirats.

 

[Wudadi]

When it comes to the area of Anxi, this map shows the period after expansion by Altan Khan of Tumed(so late XVI century).


Wudadi's map also portray the situation after this period.

Now take a look at the 1437 and 1453 maps:

Spoiler

So yes, you are right to not give Ming the Anxi region, but instead of Sarig Yogir it should go to Oirats.

Do you understand Chinese, this map has tons of informations, historical provinces about Ming. And Manchu The Nurgan Regional Military Commission
Some nomad tribes live in West of Lake Baikal under Oirats'control....etc.

 

[JKiller96]

When it comes to the area of Anxi, this map shows the period after expansion by Altan Khan of Tumed(so late XVI century).


Wudadi's map also portray the situation after this period.

Now take a look at the 1437 and 1453 maps:

Spoiler

So yes, you are right to not give Ming the Anxi region, but instead of Sarig Yogir it should go to Oirats.

According to that new information sounds like Oirats should just start at war with Kara Del and Kara Del start with Yumen instead to show that

 

[Warial]

According to that new information sounds like Oirats should just start at war with Kara Del and Kara Del start with Yumen instead to show that

Ok, I agree with this solution. This would allow us to have Oirats conquer the area without triggering war with Ming too early. Kara Del were actually concentrated around Hami (Kumul) and were at this point of time a tributary state of Ming. Guards to the south were ruled by indigenous Mongol and Turkic cheiftains under Ming suzerainty.

Anding, Aduan, Handong, Quxian were guards composed of Sarig Yogir and they are represented as such in the game. Left Handong, Shazhou and Chijin Menggu guards were composed of Mongols who surrendered to Ming after Yuan retreated to the north.

Do you understand Chinese, this map has tons of informations, historical provinces about Ming. And Manchu The Nurgan Regional Military Commission
Some nomad tribes live in West of Lake Baikal under Oirats'control....etc.

是，我能读地图。

 

[AirikrStrife]

Some nitpicking:
I thought we had kept Yeren as a state representing the following tribes: Negidal, Orok, Ulch, Nanai, Oroch and Udege. Three easternmost provinces of old Yeren minus deren + a middle part of Sakhalin. If Sakhalin be split in three parts the north Yh-Mif for Nivkh, middle Sakhalin for the relevant manchu-tungus state of the area and south Karufuto for Ainu. Nivkh shouldn't extend that far inland, it's a purely coastal state. A new province needs to be cut out from Miyoo Gasin. Besides I don't think from what I read that Oroqen extended that far east. We also see in Wudadi's map that they have tribes marked farther north all the way into the Jugjur province and I wonder who they are.

I just think Kyrgyz/Khirgiz is a better name then Yenisei. Especially since it could be thought of as refering to the Yenisei people.

@Wudadi I do not speak chinese but I'm very intrigued by the maps and would have loved to be able to understand them better (atm I can figure some of it out). Among other Manchuria and some of the tribes given there to help make as good map as possible. If there is important remarks you would have about the map which has been proposed please make them.

Some notes on states:
Shouldn't Buryat, Chahar, Kharchin and Ordos/Tumed start as marches to Mongolia? They'll start having 100%-ish liberty desire quickly causing a massive mongol civil war as did really happen around this time.

I could also see more tags added to the area to represent more possibilities for balkanization after the war is over. There is plenty of major tribes to pick from to add into the mix just looking at the maps we've already seen.

Following states should be siberin clan councils:
Kyrgyz
Yeren
Oroqen
Solon
Nivkh

Some notes on culture:
Chagatai should be a new culture replacing the Kyrgyz in Jety-suu and being the main culture of Chagatai Khanate and Kara del (Although the culture of the Hami province should be Uygur).
Kyrgyz should now be the culture of the Kyrgyz khanate but also the uncolonized Sayan province aswell as Tuva and Altai.

As far as I understand there should be no province outside of Oirats control that actually have Oirat culture. Especially not Sarig Yugir, but also none of the Ming provinces should have that.

The culture called Mongol should be made defunct and provinces split between Khalka and a new Ordos culture.

The altaic group should be split. Mongols were mainly concerned with themselves and didn't expend much into central asia vice verse. Mongol as a culture group should thus include all ethnic mongolian groups with Kyrgyz, and Solon.

the remaining Altai could either stay as they are or Kazak join tatar while Uygur, Uzbek and Chagatai form their own Karluk group. Would encourage historical Kazakh nationalism.

This is a suggesting I and Fleetingrain tried out in a mod and it works well. Replaced Manchu culture with Jurchen, which would most likely go to the Mongolian group. Upon forming Manchuria all provinces the new manchu state owns in manchuria the culture changes to Manchu which is in the chinese group aswell ofc becoming new state culture. This would also prevent quite ugly too early unifications of Manchuria where the player can extremely quickly (in less then 5 years) just grabb the required cities. Waiting would help the player getting more manchu culture provinces.

Culture in Yeren and Oroqen should be Amur? Suggestion. ALso part of the mongol-manchu culture group.

Nivkh should be together with Kamchatkan and Ainu.

 

[AirikrStrife]

General:
Since the post is a call for all of North Asia. I would like to see more provinces in the region, Kamchatka could easily be split in three provinces.

Increase in production value of most provinces. Siberia wereextremely important for Russian economy after it was colonized due to the extremely lucrative fur trade. I think the norm should be 3-4 in production value to every siberian province. This would better represent the relevance of Siberia.

Uralic areas:
1-3 Yugrian/Ostyak/Khanty/Mansi states in western Siberia and preferably Ostyak renamed to Yugrian/Ugrian. EIther one somewhat bigger state for all Yugrians or OPM's for different principalities like Pelym and Konda.

The Province of Nenets should not be a wasteland and become a few new provinces belonging to Novgorod. Perm shouldn't start as a vassal to Muscovy but both Novgorod and Muscovy should get vassalization missions towards Perm.

I could also see a OPM Nenets somewhere in the Samoyed territory.

ANd please rename the uralic culture to Permian, and the culture group to Uralic.

"Altaic areas":
A 1-3 province Sakha state around the province Yakutsk. And culture Yakutsk should not be a spread as in game. Most provinces should get Tungus culture with only 3 provinces around Yakutsk having Yakutsk culture. I don't think there should be any OPM tungus state roaming but possibly Oroqen should have Tungus culture thus giving a primary tag to a tagless culture.

What should happen to the current Evenki group after it's been pillaged heavily is probably best to remove it completly as a group (names a joke anyway) Tungus and Yakutsk could stick with the mongolian group (which by now perhaps needs to be split between two groups anyway since it's getting heavy) and Yukaghir could join the Kamchatkan group which would be better renamed Okhotsk group. Possibly also a new culture, Lamut/Even in the far east but since it wouldn't have it's own tag it isn't required.

 

[Warial]

We also see in Wudadi's map that they have tribes marked farther north all the way into the Jugjur province and I wonder who they are.

If you mean 北山女真 (Beishan Nuzhen), it literally means Jurchens of Northern Mountains and is a catch-all term for all groups living in the vinicity of Outher Khinggan mountains. It included all sorts of Evenks and Oroqens living in the area and, if Baidu is to be believed, also the predecessors of Chukchi people.

 

[Wudadi]

I think in JKiller96's map, Solon should change to Beishan.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I think in JKiller96's map, Solon should change to Beishan.

If Beishan only mean northern mountains in chinese, why wouldn't Solon be better as it better represents the tribes the state is supposed to represent? Solon evenki and their Daur allies.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Nice thread

 

[Wudadi]

If Beishan only mean northern mountains in chinese, why wouldn't Solon be better as it better represents the tribes the state is supposed to represent? Solon evenki and their Daur allies.

View attachment 205309

However, Haixi, Jianzhou, Yeren they all use Chinese pinyin as a name
Hai(sea)xi(west) menans west of sea,
Jianzhou is a place name. As you know "zhou" and "fu" and "wei" means the level of this area = state.
Ye(wild)ren(people) means wild people, or barbarian
so it should tranlate
1. west of sea Jurchens (Haixi)
2. Jian state Jurchens (Jianzhou)
3. wild people Jurchens (Yeren)
4. Northern Mountains Jurchens (Beishan)

 

[Wudadi]

Nivkh we call it Kuwu or Kuyi in Ming dynasty. Sakhalin was recorded detailed by Tang, In 725 AD, Tang set a Heishui contonal in here.........later on Jurchen Jin dynasty contol here.

Wiki
Sakhalin was inhabited in the Neolithic Stone Age. Flint implements such as those found in Siberia have been found at Dui and Kusunai in great numbers, as well as polished stone hatchets similar to European examples, primitive pottery with decorations like those of the Olonets, and stone weights used with fishing nets. A later population familiar with bronze left traces in earthen walls and kitchen-middens on Aniva Bay.

Among the indigenous people of Sakhalin are the Ainu in the southern half, the Oroks in the central region, and the Nivkhs in the north.[4] Chinese chronicled the Xianbei and Hezhe tribes,[citation needed]who had a way of life based on fishing.

The Mongol Empire made some efforts to subjugate the native people of Sakhalin starting in about 1264 CE. According to Yuanshi, the official history of the Yuan dynasty, the Mongols militarily subdued theGuwei (骨嵬, Gǔwéi), and by 1308, all inhabitants of Sakhalin had submitted to the Yuan.[5] The Nivkhs and the Oroks were subjugated earlier, whereas the Ainu people submitted to the Mongols later.[citation needed] Following their subjugation, Gǔwéi elders made tributary visits to Yuan posts located at Wuleihe, Nanghar, and Boluohe until the end of the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China (1368). In the early Ming dynasty (1368–1644), the tributary relationship was re-established. By the middle of the 15th century, following the introduction of Chinese political and commercial institutions in the Amur region, the Sakhalin Ainu were making frequent tributary visits to Chinese-controlled outposts.[5] Chinese of the Ming dynasty knew the island as Kuyi (苦夷 Kǔyí) or Kuwu (Chinese: 苦兀; pinyin:Kǔwù), and later as Kuye (Chinese: 庫頁; pinyin: Kùyè), as it is known today. There is some evidence that the Ming eunuch Admiral Yishiha reached Sakhalin in 1413 during one of his expeditions to the lower Amur, and granted Ming titles to a local chieftain.[6] Under the Ming dynasty, commerce in Northeast Asia and Sakhalin was placed under the "system for subjugated peoples", or ximin tizhi. This suggests that the island was at least nominally under the administration of the Nurgan Regional Military Commission, which was established by Yishiha near today's village of Tyr on the Siberian mainland in 1411, and continued operating until the mid-1430s.[6] A Ming boundary stone still exists on the island.

@AirikrStrife Why you add oroqen peoeple as a country?.....

There are 2 tribes live in West of Lake Baikal under Oirats'control. one 帖良古惕 another is 乞儿吉思......There are many historical record in Chinese, but again English about North Asia history is a blank.....

To be honest, If someone wanna deal with North Asia in EU4, he/she must understand Chinese. I can find many historical record in Chinese. But I'm not a Native English speaker, No one can translate it into English. same as no one can translate all historical record of Ming(just one dynasty in China)

Before a Chinese mod group made a EU3 North Asia mod. include all wasteland in North Asia in the game. They can find all the information about the whole North Asia, tribes name, location, culture.......Because the leader of this mod group who study North Asia history in China. but in some reason, this mod group was dead.....

I'll try to contact him, maybe I can get EU3 North Asia map in Chinese.

I have a long time don't focus on PDS forum, because KOEI's game: Romance of the Three Kingdoms 13 and ROTK 13 PK will come out in this year winter. I have to write some DLC scenario suggestion for ROTK 13 PK in KOEI official website, I hope they will pick my scenario as a DLC

 

[Warial]

There are 2 tribes live in West of Lake Baikal under Oirats'control. one 帖良古惕 another is 乞儿吉思......There are many historical record in Chinese, but again English about North Asia history is a blank.....

Actually 帖良古惕 are Telengits and 乞儿吉思 are Yenisei Kirghiz. Kirghiz are already in the mod, while Telengits are living in the central province of Kirgiz as per JKiller96's map.

However, Haixi, Jianzhou, Yeren they all use Chinese pinyin as a name
Hai(sea)xi(west) menans west of sea,
Jianzhou is a place name. As you know "zhou" and "fu" and "wei" means the level of this area = state.
Ye(wild)ren(people) means wild people, or barbarian
so it should tranlate
1. west of sea Jurchens (Haixi)
2. Jian state Jurchens (Jianzhou)
3. wild people Jurchens (Yeren)
4. Northern Mountains Jurchens (Beishan)

Wudadi is right here. Using Yeren, Jianzhou and Haixi, but saying that Beishan is bad is illogical. That's why in the M&T I opted to rename Haixi to Nara (the ruling clan of all Haixi tribes) and replaced Yeren by Nanai, Warka, Hurha and Woji. Oroqens and Nivkhs I included at first, but later opted out to remove them because they never formed a statehood, were small in numbers and to not waste mod's performance.

 

[JKiller96]

I decided to name the Yenisei Kyrgyz Yenisei because it's a conglomerate of different people subjugated by the Oirat as some mentioned. Yenisei is the name of a river and region of the area as well as the Kyrgyz. So it's pretty fitting. Solon I believe should stay Solon as they represent the very close Solon and Daur peoples.
On the topic of Oroqen, I made ti Yeren and people complained that it was Yeren. So I made it Oroqen and now people complain that it's Oroqen. Hmmm...

 

[Warial]

You can't please everyone.

 

[JKiller96]

Updated with changes to Kara Del and Yeren

 

[AirikrStrife]

I'm sorry, I'm making a big fuss about myself but it's because I'm very enthusiastic.

@JKiller96 my point about Yeren/Oroqen is that the state you drew in your first map is problematic becuse the state is too big. Oroqens were not in the amur delta and if we as I have been suggesting (rightfully or wrongfully I'm not 100% sure but no one pointed anything else out) has been that Yeren would represent 6 distinct etnic croups centered around the amur-ussuri region thus the Yeren state stretching too far west. That's why I split them in two in my quick and ugly map.

@Warial @Wudadi Beishan makes perfect sense looking at it like that, I knew in the back of my head that Jianzhou etc were pinyin but didn't consider it when I opened my mouth. Soo Beishen would go as a catch all for Oroqens and Solons etc? should the states I in my map call Oroqen and Solon be combined into one Beishan state or should there be one Beishan and one Solon state? Should Beishan includ Daguurs/Dahurs?

This is really hard representing tribal and nomadic areas in a game like this especially then sources are scarce. I think the current form of the Yenisei Kyrgyz state originates with me from earlier suggestions and discussion I have had. I know it includes several different turkish tribes as well as samoyeds. What I wanted to do was to give agency to an area I think deserve it i.e. being playable and having to be ocnquered rather than colonized and be part of the mongol world. In the game the world ends with wasteland if your not a colonizing nation and the Kyrgyz would for example extend their influence and their Yasak collection all the way to the ket people.

They Kyrgyz being the most powerful and influential tribe in the region I choose them to be state and culture representing not only themself but the altai peoples (like teleuts and altai proper) shors, tuvinians and others.

Also, any thoughts about the cultural groupings?