Request for Redrawing of Northern Asia

[JKiller96]

More updated;

There was another thread I started about Yeren and it was made more into about Mongolia but this one is specifically about all of northern Asia from Sakhalin to Uzbek. There were some pretty awesome maps shown from the previous thread and we were able to piece together a more accurate representation of the area. I know there are certain people who love to play in this area (like me) and would very much love to see improvement, not just from a historical perspective but a game play one as well.

So far here is what we have come up with;

Summary of changes from west to east
-Yarkand a vassal of Chagatai
-Independent Selkup tribe of Pegaya Orda (Tengri, Selkup) to the east of Uzbek with an additional province from them (AKA the Skewbald Horde, fought the Russians in the 1500's)
-New Siberian Kirghiz tribe of Yenisei (Kyrgyz, Tengri) Would be a vassal of Oirat. Also a new province in their east making them a 4 province minor.
-Sarig Yogir granted Yumen as Ming didn't very thoroughly control the region and probably not Yumen city.
-Mongolia has cores on Oirat to encourage aggressiveness after their Personal Union (Rather than vassalage) ends.
-New Tumed (Tengri/Vajrayana, Tumed) tribe between Ming and Mongolia to represent the Tumed and Ordos. Vassal of Mongolia (Instead of Oirat) to balance the two.
-Buryats moved further west.
-Chakhar/Chahar (Tengri, Chahar) split from Khorchin in the south to represent their tribe.
-Yeren split into Solon Khanate (Tengri, Evenki or Solon) in the west/north, Oroqen (Tengri, Manchu or Oroqen) in centre/south, and the Nivkh (Tengri, Nivkh/Gilyak) in the northeast, with Sakhalin split in two to represent the Nivkh north and Ainu south.

IF YOU HAVE SUGGESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO RESPOND! Maps and book recommendations are the best sources.
@Trin Tragula @DDRJake

 

[JKiller96]

@DDRJake Please Jake, update

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Does anybody else think that the Buryats should be moved from Evenki to the Altaic culture group with the other Mongol peoples?

 

[Koramei]

Ha, I was just wondering about that the other day actually. I'm not a North Asia expert but I think it makes sense to change them; from what I can tell, maybe the reason they're in Evenki now is because the group would be too small without the Buryats in it?

But if that's the case, you could fix the size issue with another suggestion I've been seeing around lately- changing the starting Manchu culture to Jurchen, and lumping that in with the Evenki/Tungus group. Then if Manchuria gets formed, Jurchen changes into Manchu (like how your provinces and so on flip to Roman culture if you form the Roman Empire), which'd switch them back into the Chinese group so they can still conquer China more easily.

That way you could solve both the Buryat and Manchu problems at once.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I don't think the reason the Buryats are in the Evenki group are because they're worried about Evenki being too small. There are culture groups that are even smaller, there are some groups that only have two cultures in it and one nation, there are even culture groups with NO nations in them, only natives.

I think the reason they made such a weird decision for the Buryats is because the Buryats are being used in game right now as a 'nebulous northern steppe' culture, the two provinces of Tannu Uriankhai Altai Uriankhai are also for no reason... Buryat. These provinces represent the Tuvan people, who have many Mongolian cultural features, and are Tibetan Buddhist but speak a Turkic language. All in all it's pretty silly, we could easily just get an "Uriankhai" Atalic culture IMO. There really is no reason for the Buryats to be Evenk, sure they absorbed some Evenk tribes and forced tribute on them but they also did that to other non Evenk tribes as well. The Buryats should be more active within the Mongol sphere culturally, both in terms of religion (converting to Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism) but their alliance with the Oirats and there later subjection by the Khalka.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I think the reason why Buryats are in the Evenki group is cause they just lump "Siberia" into one culture, all siberian clan councels really except the maritime around kamchatka and hokaido that got their own. And also a bit of an inadequate history reading. ANyone ever noticed they have a group called evenki (which is a distinct tungusic people) and then the cultures in the evenki group are: Buryats, which are mongols and while languages doesn't equal culture group, buryat mongols were still a part of the mongol kulturkeis and political system and the buryat language were probably still mutually intelligible with at least some mongol varieties, Tungusic, Which is the name used for the language family/ethnic groups including jurchen/manchus, evenkis and others, Yakutsk, turkish ppl but they live largely like evenkis and mix with them so makes sense, Yukaghir, could be in evenki or kamchatkan group doesn't really matter.

Then there is the weird situation with Buryat culture representing Altai and Tuva people, two turco-mongol peoples within the Oirat sphere of inlfuence who viewed themselves largely as mongols. They're using Kyrgyz as the culture fro the uncolonized turkic peoples like Northern altai/teleuts, shors, khakassians and Yenisei Kyrgyz, it'd be better representing Tuvans and Altais with the Kyrgyz culture.

Besides the distribution of Tungusic vs Yakutsk culture is all wrong wit way too many provinces being Yakutsk culture. Although uncolonized territory doesn't really matter.

A split of altaic into one more proper mongol oriented group vs one more persianate group would be a fairly reasonable split. And Jurchen being part of a renamed "Siberian" or "Tungusic" group until forming manchuria with the tungusic culture properly renamed evenki

 

[AirikrStrife]

Also I did some reading up on Xinjiang and it seems Oirats should be the dominant culture in all of Dzungaria, i.e. the Uyghur provinces in Dzungaria should be changed to Oirat. Doesn't seem to get Uighur majority until after the Dzungar genocide. @Warial or @JKiller96 know something more about this?

 

[JKiller96]

Also I did some reading up on Xinjiang and it seems Oirats should be the dominant culture in all of Dzungaria, i.e. the Uyghur provinces in Dzungaria should be changed to Oirat. Doesn't seem to get Uighur majority until after the Dzungar genocide. @Warial or @JKiller96 know something more about this?

There were massacres against the Turkic populations that increased the ratios of Oirats to other in the area but that's later in the timeline

 

[Warial]

Also I did some reading up on Xinjiang and it seems Oirats should be the dominant culture in all of Dzungaria, i.e. the Uyghur provinces in Dzungaria should be changed to Oirat. Doesn't seem to get Uighur majority until after the Dzungar genocide. @Warial or @JKiller96 know something more about this?

Not in 1444, Oirats back then were still living mostly in Altai mountains and along Irtysh river. South of them there were Moghuls, Turkified Mongols of Chaghatai Ulus. Oirats moved to the Dzungharia under the pressure from Mongols in 16th and 17th century.

 

[Zerodv]

Not in 1444, Oirats back then were still living mostly in Altai mountains and along Irtysh river. South of them there were Moghuls, Turkified Mongols of Chaghatai Ulus. Oirats moved to the Dzungharia under the pressure from Mongols in 16th and 17th century.

Who lived there before them?

 

[Warial]

Who lived there before them?

Mughals, so Turco-Mongols of Chaghatai Khanate. The difference between them and Uyghurs is that Uyghurs were descendants of oasis dwellers of Kingdom of Qocho and were settled people. Mughals on the other hand were nomads and nomadized in Dzungharia.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Mughals, so Turco-Mongols of Chaghatai Khanate. The difference between them and Uyghurs is that Uyghurs were descendants of oasis dwellers of Kingdom of Qocho and were settled people. Mughals on the other hand were nomads and nomadized in Dzungharia.

Would this mean a Chagatai culture would be more fitting culture in southern Dzungaria? Including Hami and the Kara del Khanate

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Speaking of cultures, what are your opinions on the current Altaic group setup in EU4? IMO I agree with AirikrStrife on this one from page 1. The Khalka, Oirat, "Mongol", Buryat, and IMO Daur and Uriankhai peoples would be better served with a "Mongol" group to put emphasis on interacting with each other. By the 15th century when the game starts the drift from the peak of Genghis Khan's power had long since ended, Turkified Mongols no longer saw non Muslim Mongols as the same 'peoples' any longer, as evident by the hostility between the Oirats and Chagatai and the much closer cultural relationship Turkic Buddhist peoples, like the Tuvans, have with Mongols compared to other Turkic Muslim peoples like the Uzbeks and Kazakhs.

Also I suggest that the vague and somewhat confusing "Mongol" culture in southern Outer Mongolia and in Inner Mongolia be renamed to the generic "Ömnöd" (Өмнөд which translates to "Southern") Culture. It's just a weird name to have when Mongol peoples are already divided into several different cultures already and would better convey what the "Mongol" culture in EU4 is currently representing, non-Khalka and non-Oirat Mongols living in and around China.

 

[Warial]

Would this mean a Chagatai culture would be more fitting culture in southern Dzungaria? Including Hami and the Kara del Khanate

Uyghur is good enough. If PDS were to add Chagatai culture, then it would have to also encompass currently Uzbek lands.

Speaking of cultures, what are your opinions on the current Altaic group setup in EU4? IMO I agree with AirikrStrife on this one from page 1. The Khalka, Oirat, "Mongol", Buryat, and IMO Daur and Uriankhai peoples would be better served with a "Mongol" group to put emphasis on interacting with each other.

I agree. It would also fix the artifical split between Tatar culture group and Kazakhs

Also I suggest that the vague and somewhat confusing "Mongol" culture in southern Outer Mongolia and in Inner Mongolia be renamed to the generic "Ömnöd" (Өмнөд which translates to "Southern") Culture. It's just a weird name to have when Mongol peoples are already divided into several different cultures already and would better convey what the "Mongol" culture in EU4 is currently representing, non-Khalka and non-Oirat Mongols living in and around China.

Personally I prefer Tümed since they were the dominant group in the area, just like Chahar were in theirs.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Speaking of cultures, what are your opinions on the current Altaic group setup in EU4? IMO I agree with AirikrStrife on this one from page 1. The Khalka, Oirat, "Mongol", Buryat, and IMO Daur and Uriankhai peoples would be better served with a "Mongol" group to put emphasis on interacting with each other. By the 15th century when the game starts the drift from the peak of Genghis Khan's power had long since ended, Turkified Mongols no longer saw non Muslim Mongols as the same 'peoples' any longer, as evident by the hostility between the Oirats and Chagatai and the much closer cultural relationship Turkic Buddhist peoples, like the Tuvans, have with Mongols compared to other Turkic Muslim peoples like the Uzbeks and Kazakhs.

Also I suggest that the vague and somewhat confusing "Mongol" culture in southern Outer Mongolia and in Inner Mongolia be renamed to the generic "Ömnöd" (Өмнөд which translates to "Southern") Culture. It's just a weird name to have when Mongol peoples are already divided into several different cultures already and would better convey what the "Mongol" culture in EU4 is currently representing, non-Khalka and non-Oirat Mongols living in and around China.

Yes, the dominant suggestion for "southern" mongols has been Ordos or Tümed based on that area beeing primarily inhabited by those wings of mongols. There hasn't been much talk about actual "southern mongols" in gansu and qinghai more than it's stupid they use Oirat for Sarig Yogir (but due to the anti OPM cultures the only counterproposal has been Uighur).

The division of Eurasiatic cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasiatic_languages sans indo-european have been discussed a bit in the 2-3 threads we have had on the matter. Currently I'm leaning towards a scheme looking something like this:

Tatar: Current group + Kazakh
Mongol/Altai: All mongol language groups + Kyrgyz/Uriankhai whatever we call the northerners

And either an independent group (Karluk) or adding to persian: Turkmen, Uzbek, Chagatai and possible Tajik.

Though Chagatai could also be in Mongol group

 

[AirikrStrife]

Uyghur is good enough. If PDS were to add Chagatai culture, then it would have to also encompass currently Uzbek lands.

The main reason I want Chagatai in the game is because it feels ridiculous for the Chagatai Khanate/Moghulistan to have Kyrgyz as primary culture. Really Timurids should also have used Chagatai as their primary culture if the culture is added, but I think Uzbek in this case works.

 

[Warial]

The main reason I want Chagatai in the game is because it feels ridiculous for the Chagatai Khanate/Moghulistan to have Kyrgyz as primary culture. Really Timurids should also have used Chagatai as their primary culture if the culture is added, but I think Uzbek in this case works.

Then why not Uyghur?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I definitely agree with you there on cultures, and I think it would help the game as well, as for Chagatai it's a little tricky. While they were "True Mongols" (and were considered Mongols by the Chinese and themselves) and maintained a Mongol lifestyle at the time of their split of the original Chagatai khanate, 1450ish is hard to place them at though. Tughlugh Timur had already converted to Islam and all his descendants proselytized the new religion, apparently the Mongol language didn't disappear until the 16th century but that seems likely only in isolated pockets. For the most part I would say the Chagatai were Turkified 'enough' to be considered closer to Tatars than Mongols except locally at the fringes of their domain by the time the game starts. If anybody else could lend some insight into this specific time period in Central Asian history, it would certainly be useful.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Then why not Uyghur?

I wouldn't consider Chagatai and Uyghur to be interchangeable, while the Chagatai ruled the Uyghur "Altishahr" cities of the Tarim Basin, they were a nomadic steppe people, the Uyghurs were an Urban, sedentary people. Also many Uyghurs were still Buddhist in the 15th century.

 

[Warial]

I wouldn't consider Chagatai and Uyghur to be interchangeable, while the Chagatai ruled the Uyghur "Altishahr" cities of the Tarim Basin, they were a nomadic steppe people, the Uyghurs were an Urban, sedentary people. Also many Uyghurs were still Buddhist in the 15th century.

For M&T I would separate those two without problem. However, in vanilla we should stay realistic with what devs are willing to add. As I see it, they are more likely to make Chagatai Khanate Uyghur than carve out a Moghul culture.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

For M&T I would separate those two without problem. However, in vanilla we should stay realistic with what devs are willing to add. As I see it, they are more likely to make Chagatai Khanate Uyghur than carve out a Moghul culture.

If I were to use nothing but existing tags, I would have the Chagatai as a Muslim Mongol or "Uzbek" state with Uyghur as an accepted religion. Ili, Urumqi and Qakilik (but not Bechbaliq) should be Mongol, these areas were changed demographically later in the 18th century. Kuqa and Korla should still be Buddhist by the mid 1400s from what I've read. The main 'gist' of the Chagatai is that they really are the rump of a rump state (a division of the Mongol Empire, then a divison of the First Chagatai State, and then now divided between sedantary and steppe people), left over with awkward mis-matched peoples which should, do it's internal weakness, lead to the historical creation of the Yarkent Khanate from Chagatai.