Request for Redrawing of Northern Asia

[JKiller96]

More updated;

There was another thread I started about Yeren and it was made more into about Mongolia but this one is specifically about all of northern Asia from Sakhalin to Uzbek. There were some pretty awesome maps shown from the previous thread and we were able to piece together a more accurate representation of the area. I know there are certain people who love to play in this area (like me) and would very much love to see improvement, not just from a historical perspective but a game play one as well.

So far here is what we have come up with;

Summary of changes from west to east
-Yarkand a vassal of Chagatai
-Independent Selkup tribe of Pegaya Orda (Tengri, Selkup) to the east of Uzbek with an additional province from them (AKA the Skewbald Horde, fought the Russians in the 1500's)
-New Siberian Kirghiz tribe of Yenisei (Kyrgyz, Tengri) Would be a vassal of Oirat. Also a new province in their east making them a 4 province minor.
-Sarig Yogir granted Yumen as Ming didn't very thoroughly control the region and probably not Yumen city.
-Mongolia has cores on Oirat to encourage aggressiveness after their Personal Union (Rather than vassalage) ends.
-New Tumed (Tengri/Vajrayana, Tumed) tribe between Ming and Mongolia to represent the Tumed and Ordos. Vassal of Mongolia (Instead of Oirat) to balance the two.
-Buryats moved further west.
-Chakhar/Chahar (Tengri, Chahar) split from Khorchin in the south to represent their tribe.
-Yeren split into Solon Khanate (Tengri, Evenki or Solon) in the west/north, Oroqen (Tengri, Manchu or Oroqen) in centre/south, and the Nivkh (Tengri, Nivkh/Gilyak) in the northeast, with Sakhalin split in two to represent the Nivkh north and Ainu south.

IF YOU HAVE SUGGESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO RESPOND! Maps and book recommendations are the best sources.
@Trin Tragula @DDRJake

 

[Wudadi]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6p-zoWCk_fet6qKGtTZgcT7X1EuTfeIe

 

[Wudadi]

I'm sorry, I'm making a big fuss about myself but it's because I'm very enthusiastic.

@JKiller96 my point about Yeren/Oroqen is that the state you drew in your first map is problematic becuse the state is too big. Oroqens were not in the amur delta and if we as I have been suggesting (rightfully or wrongfully I'm not 100% sure but no one pointed anything else out) has been that Yeren would represent 6 distinct etnic croups centered around the amur-ussuri region thus the Yeren state stretching too far west. That's why I split them in two in my quick and ugly map.

@Warial @Wudadi Beishan makes perfect sense looking at it like that, I knew in the back of my head that Jianzhou etc were pinyin but didn't consider it when I opened my mouth. Soo Beishen would go as a catch all for Oroqens and Solons etc? should the states I in my map call Oroqen and Solon be combined into one Beishan state or should there be one Beishan and one Solon state? Should Beishan includ Daguurs/Dahurs?

This is really hard representing tribal and nomadic areas in a game like this especially then sources are scarce. I think the current form of the Yenisei Kyrgyz state originates with me from earlier suggestions and discussion I have had. I know it includes several different turkish tribes as well as samoyeds. What I wanted to do was to give agency to an area I think deserve it i.e. being playable and having to be ocnquered rather than colonized and be part of the mongol world. In the game the world ends with wasteland if your not a colonizing nation and the Kyrgyz would for example extend their influence and their Yasak collection all the way to the ket people.

They Kyrgyz being the most powerful and influential tribe in the region I choose them to be state and culture representing not only themself but the altai peoples (like teleuts and altai proper) shors, tuvinians and others.

Also, any thoughts about the cultural groupings?

I also think it should use Chinese Pinyin as their name. Because the Chinese name is the only offical name to describe these Manchu group during that time period.

I want to remind you guys for yours mod. In fact, Manchu group is not a typical nomadic group. Most of them live in forest area and mountain area,(some Manchu tribes that live in west of Manchu area, We call them "people in forest" in Ming) they like huntsman, hunting bears, fish..... training eagle to hunt.

Because you said that "I'm sorry, I'm making a big fuss about myself but it's because I'm very enthusiastic." I think I'll try to help you if I have enough time. As you know, Modding North Asia is very difficult job. I even don't wanna touch this part. It's gald to see more and more people pay attention to this area. I really hope PDS will remake North Asia in EU4, fill in all the "wasteland", thus But first of all, you guys should make an accuracy map in North Asia. A historical correct map at least. That's what I'm worry about. That's why I re- pay attention to PDS/EU4 forum.

I have asked Chinese North Asian mod group for help.

Bad news is: they have a North Asia map in 629 AD in EU3, I mean the whole North Asia map(Include all territory),they fill all the wasteland in EU3 and add many provinces. a lot of historical North Asia tribes, flags.....But it in 629 AD... this time period is in Tang dynasty.....

Good news is: one of the member(not the leader) in North Asian mod group willing to help us to draw a North Asia map in 1444. When he finshed, I'll upload it in here. This is what I can do for you guys.

 

[JKiller96]

I also think it should use Chinese Pinyin as their name. Because the Chinese name is the only offical name to describe these Manchu group during that time period.

I want to remind you guys for yours mod. In fact, Manchu group is not a typical nomadic group. Most of them live in forest area and mountain area,(some Manchu tribes that live in west of Manchu area, We call them "people in forest" in Ming) they like huntsman, hunting bears, fish..... training eagle to hunt.

Because you said that "I'm sorry, I'm making a big fuss about myself but it's because I'm very enthusiastic." I think I'll try to help you if I have enough. As you know, Modding North Asia is very difficult job. I even don't wanna touch this part. It's gald to see more and more people pay attention to this area. I really hope PDS will remake North Asia in EU4, fill in all the "wasteland", thus But first of all, you guys should make an accuracy map in North Asia. A historical correct map at least. That's what I'm worry about. That's why I re- pay attention to PDS/EU4 forum.

I have asked Chinese North Asian mod group for help.

Bad news is: they have a North Asia map in 629 AD in EU3, I mean the whole North Asia map(Include all territory),they fill all the wasteland in EU3 and add many provinces. a lot of historical North Asia tribes, flags.....But it in 629 AD... this time period is in Tang dynasty.....

Good news is: one of the member(not the leader) in North Asian mod group willing to help us to draw a North Asia map in 1444. When he finshed, I'll upload it in here. This is what I can do for you guys.

Thank you! Can he also give us his sources as wel? Even if they are in Chinese

 

[Wudadi]

Thank you! Can he also give us his sources as wel? Even if they are in Chinese

I'll ask him.

 

[Wudadi]

Show you guys some EU3 North Asia mod maps in 629 AD

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He said if make a 1444 map the most countries in north of black line can keep, just need to remake the area in south of black line.

This map he draw two black line, in order to point out the location that when Russia conquer the Khanate of Sibir,they first find these two tribes one is called 纳利姆,another is called 佩亚加欧达.(although this map is in 629 AD.)

 

[Wudadi]

They use some historical books’record to make North Asia
some sources they uesd.
Chinese list
1.东北亚民族编年史（具体名字不确定了）
2.俄罗斯对西伯利亚的扩张记录
3.满族乌西奔妈妈诗歌
4.唐史--对北亚的记录
5.辽史--对北亚的记录
6.金史--对北亚的记录
7.元史--对北亚的记录
8.明史--对北亚的记录
9.清史--对北亚的记录(灭所有蒙古部落的记载，满洲统一的记载)
10.各种北亚史的--维基百科--中文
11.各种北亚史的--百度百科--中文
12.........................
..........................
You guys see the maps and some sources they uesd, that's why I don't want to touch this part.
It's relly messy......

 

[JKiller96]

They use some historical books’record to make North Asia
some sources they uesd.
Chinese list
1.东北亚民族编年史（具体名字不确定了）
2.俄罗斯对西伯利亚的扩张记录
3.满族乌西奔妈妈诗歌
4.唐史--对北亚的记录
5.辽史--对北亚的记录
6.金史--对北亚的记录
7.元史--对北亚的记录
8.明史--对北亚的记录
9.清史--对北亚的记录(灭所有蒙古部落的记载，满洲统一的记载)
10.各种北亚史的--维基百科--中文
11.各种北亚史的--百度百科--中文
12.........................
..........................
You guys see the maps and some sources they uesd, that's why I don't want to touch this part.
It's relly messy......

The time period we're looking at is pretty specific, it would be nice if they had information relation to anywhere around 1430-1453

 

[Warial]

Show you guys some EU3 North Asia mod maps in 629 AD

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He said if make a 1444 map the most countries in north of black line can keep, just need to remake the area in south of black line.

This map he draw two black line, in order to point out the location that when Russia conquer the Khanate of Sibir,they first find these two tribes one is called 纳利姆,another is called 佩亚加欧达.(although this map is in 629 AD.)

I remember this mod! I had it on my desktop until recently. Though I don't think it is the level of detail guys are looking for considering that they keep Jianzhou and Haixi united. Going by tribes Mongolia and Manchuria can be both split into tens of TAGs.

 

[Warial]

Beishan makes perfect sense looking at it like that, I knew in the back of my head that Jianzhou etc were pinyin but didn't consider it when I opened my mouth. Soo Beishen would go as a catch all for Oroqens and Solons etc? should the states I in my map call Oroqen and Solon be combined into one Beishan state or should there be one Beishan and one Solon state? Should Beishan includ Daguurs/Dahurs?

That's upto you, how detailed you want your setup to be. The extent of Solon control is already grossly exaggerated, so I don't see any issue with extending Oroqen to the east, to encompass related ethnic groups. You can unite them into Beishan, to make the setup more balanced. And Beishan most certainly should include Daurs (Daguur is a Mongolian pronounciation, Dahur Chinese) if the include Solons. They were pretty much inseparable.

Also, any thoughts about the cultural groupings?

I'd rather separate Tungusic-speaking peoples from Mongolic-speaking, but with culture groups being pretty much arbitray in vanilla it's your choice again. Kirgiz should be preferably get their own group along with Sakha (if you want to add them) and Sarig Yogir (if you want to give them their own culture). My reasons for that are following:
- Yenisei Kirgiz were descendants of Kirgiz Khaganate and spoke a language different than Tatars and Chagatai Turki. It's also worthy to add that they remained vassals of Oirats until Russians came.
- Sarig Yogir were descendants of old Uyghur Khaganate and unlike their cousins in Uyghuristan, they kept traditions, Buddhism and language of their predescessors. Among them were also descendants of Tangut and Tuyuhun.
- Sakha are the outlier. They have no legends connected to Ginghis Khan, so they were never under control of his Empire, meaning they left Baikal area before he created it. Likewise they language is different from other Turkic groups and have their own unique traditions.

 

[Quaility]

Spoiler

The Yugra area should not be ignored in this thread, athough I think only Pelym and Koda/Konda/Kondia are needed since the tribes are very small, and the tags I mentioned where involved in local diplomacy/wars the most if I remember correctly.

 

[Warial]

The Yugra area should not be ignored in this thread, athough I think only Pelym and Koda/Konda/Kondia are needed since the tribes are very small, and the tags I mentioned where involved in local diplomacy/wars the most if I remember correctly.

Please don't mistake Koda and Konda. There were two principalities in this area, independent Кодське князівство (Koda) and Кондиське князівство (Konda) which was part of condeferation under Pelym.

However, you are right to say that Pelym and Koda were the most important principalities there. Pelym owing to its proximity to Perm, Muscovy and Tyumen, Koda to a relative richness in trade goods and trade route along Ob river. It's also worthy to mention that both principalities were rivals and often fought with each other. When Russians arrived Koda very quickly become their allies and send warriors to fight against Mansi of Pelym, Tatars of Sibir and Selkups of Skewbald Horde (and numerous other tribes).

Those two tribes should be vassals of Shaybanids in 1444 and later of Sibir. Personally, for M&T mod I included also the principality of Obdora (Обдорське князівство), which was Gigau's idea. I originally also only wanted those 2, but since he proposed to add 3, I didn't argue much .

 

[JKiller96]

Tbh I think that Paradox are looking to keep the way from Perm to Kamchatka clear for Russian colonization so personally I wouldnt want to touch area west/north of Pegaya Orda

 

[JKiller96]

How I see culture groups working:

 

[Warial]

Do you really need Tuvan as a separate culture? They wouldn't have their own tag and would make Oirats weaker. Also I don't see a reason why Hami, Turfan and Yumen should have Oirat culture. Uighur is a better choice.

 

[JKiller96]

Do you really need Tuvan as a separate culture? They wouldn't have their own tag and would make Oirats weaker. Also I don't see a reason why Hami, Turfan and Yumen should have Oirat culture. Uighur is a better choice.

The way culture groups in the next patch work they would start with all the cultures being accepted right away, so i thought it wouldnt hurt. As for Hami and yumen and that, i just kept them as they are in the game. I added Tuvan because seeing buryat there seemed odd.

 

[Warial]

I would remove Tuvan and make those provinces Oirat. Weren't Kirgiz already meant to represent all Altaic cultures? Instead those provinces in the south should most certainly become Uighur.

 

[JKiller96]

I would remove Tuvan and make those provinces Oirat. Weren't Kirgiz already meant to represent all Altaic cultures? Instead those provinces in the south should most certainly become Uighur.

That whole Kygyzstan/Tajikistan area is a wholeeee other can of worms I really don't want to open lmao

 

[Warial]

That whole Kygyzstan/Tajikistan area is a wholeeee other can of worms I really don't want to open lmao

By Kirgiz I meant Yenisei Kirgiz. Actually I just noticed that you have them as one culture on your map, but I personally would make them separate.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Also I don't see a reason why Hami, Turfan and Yumen should have Oirat culture. Uighur is a better choice.

According to the History of Ming (#5-8 on that page), the area around Dunhuang were controlled by various Mongol entities.

 

[Warial]

According to the History of Ming (#5-8 on that page), the area around Dunhuang were controlled by various Mongol entities.

But not Oirats. They were either troops surrendered to Ming after the fall of Yuan (and led by Borjigins) or smaller Mongol/Turkic tribes. Hami was most certainly an Uighur town.