Requesting information about the new crit system

[Pug]

The premise of the new system is fine; in that it makes critical 'meaningingful', but there are numerous problems with the implementation.

1) Its unclear what some Critical do (e.g. Internal Fragments, Fire, etc.) - I'm not really sure of a solution to this, other than to get rid of superfluous ones, and consolidate existing ones.

An effective solution is principally one of language, that would be to make clear the principle that Penetrating Hits cause permanent (unless repaired) damage, however non-penetrating hits cause only temporary damage. i.e. the non-penetrating critical 'Gunner Wounded' (Cannot Shoot for x Seconds), becomes on penetration 'Gunner Killed' (Cannot Shoot until Repaired). Or the non-penetrating 'Transmission Damaged' (Move Slower for x Seconds), becomes on penetration 'Transmission Destroyed' (Move Slower until Repaired). The Principle here is that non-penetrating hits can only temporarily provide de-buffs, and only on the minority of hits - and the language reflects that. Most people know a driver drives, and a gunner shoots; but 'Internal Fragments' is ambiguous at best.*

*These momentary (few seconds) delays is crucial in combat, but given respite is ultimately insignificant. I feel however 'Track Broken' should be moved to the non-penetrating list (after-all you do not need to compromise the main body of armour), it should however be made only a temporary de-buff, albeit lasting for a minute or so.

2) Not all criticals are created equal. This is fundamental to the increase 'artificial survivability'. e.g. When drawing from the same 'Kill Critical' table, 'Engine Destroyed' (Total Immobility) and 'Track Broken' (Retaining Rotation) are hardly equal. Arguably, Ammo Hit, is quite good in that it eliminates the offensive capabilities, and combined with a mobility kill is as good as dead. This percentage allocation which has been discussed is not an inherent problem in the new system, and is something that can be easily tweaked (and I'm sure it will in due course).

3) I appreciate a complex solution (though not one reconciled with the notion of 'over-pentration' would be that the greater the difference in AP to AV, the greater the chance (out to 100% to kill instantly. At present every penetrating shot has equal chance to kill (its only that better guns penetrate more often), but given the meta there are only a few cases where guns absolutely cannot penetrate.

As I say, I think the Critical System is a step in the right direction, and I don't think the problems regarding clarity or probability are at all insurmountable. I have every faith the problem will be solved 'imminently'.

 

[TorgoW]

^ This guy has the right idea.

I'm going to add that I don't really know that much about track hits in real life. But what I do know is if my Panther is aiming a main gun at your puny halftrack, I'm not aiming for the tracks. And definitely not twice in a row.... But if I do hit the tracks, twice, I'd think that'd shake the crew up for quite a while.

 

[Alex646]

e.g. Internal Fragments

This crit destroys part of your ammo for all weapons.

Or the non-penetrating 'Transmission Damaged' (Move Slower for x Seconds), becomes on penetration 'Transmission Destroyed' (Move Slower until Repaired).

Plz, stop to suggest more casual arcade bullshit for the game. There is no way crew can fix transmission themselves. Transmission Destroyed means total immobility for vehicle.

Track Broken' (Retaining Rotation)

Tracks broken for tanks means no rotation at all.

 

[Pug]

This crit destroys part of your ammo for all weapons.



Plz, stop to suggest more casual arcade bullshit for the game. There is no way crew can fix transmission themselves. Transmission Destroyed means total immobility for vehicle.



Tracks broken for tanks means no rotation at all.

‘more casual bullshit’ - I’d be inclined to agree (in principle rather than phrase). This is not the direction I would have preferred, but clearly is the direction which the Devs want to take the game.

Given that reality, I see little difference in a supply truck able to fix a destoyed engine in the field in c.20 seconds, and a crew being able to conduct a more minor repair in the same (or longer) amount of time.

The point, which I may not have made clear enough, is that (while I after some ponderance am fully aware of what ‘Internal Fragments’ is) to the layman the new critical system is fundamentally confusing.

Why not call it ‘(Minor) Ammo Hit’ as opposed to 'Ammo Storage Hit' [to '(Major) Ammo Hit'] or ‘Critical Ammo Hit’ [In Red] fatal critical?

It is not a case of simplifying, but making it intuitive - a question of language and interface rather than over-arching mechanics.

As for ‘Track Broken’, if I am mistaken then I apologise.

 

[Leenday]

It would be realistic to make 90% of penetrating hits lethal to the tank's service. Some of the crewman could survive but they wouldn't continue fighting due to the danger of tank flammability and their own wounds. So, saying it simply, "Bailed out!" was the most often thing to happen. A tank would be shot to its death or captured afterwards.

I've read some biography of the M4 76's commander. During his service they encountered a Tiger and suffered a direct shot in the frontal armor. Driver died on an instant, Gunner had his both legs cut off by the shrapnel (He survived). Author himself got a huge wound on one leg and the Radioman and the Loader got relatively lucky with their light injuries.

From the example above you could notice that technically tank could continue the fighting which of course didn't happen and never happened in similar situations. They may be the war men but they have a long life to live.

I admire how realistic SD:44 is and dislike the arcade way it goes. It would be okay if they made Supply repair correctly - why not if planes are fixed in mere minutes - but tanks are fixed in a couple of seconds! I don't remember leaving a pit stop crew inside the supply vehicle. Even arty is recharged five times longer than the repairs of tank's main components are done. And then there are infinite crits instead of a kill so this piece of steel with a gun literally never dies. This makes the game more biased to the tank divisions at most.

 

[RoyalColor]

I admire how realistic SD:44 is and dislike the arcade way it goes.

Same here, but at the same time this is the main reason we struggle with player numbers. Game is too difficult for casuals and doesn't fit modern gaming trends.

We could keep on acting like elitist pricks, but finally we'll reach a line where MP will be barren

 

[Alex646]

Given that reality, I see little difference in a supply truck able to fix a destoyed engine in the field in c.20 seconds, and a crew being able to conduct a more minor repair in the same (or longer) amount of time.

I admire how realistic SD:44 is and dislike the arcade way it goes. It would be okay if they made Supply repair correctly - why not if planes are fixed in mere minutes - but tanks are fixed in a couple of seconds! I don't remember leaving a pit stop crew inside the supply vehicle. Even arty is recharged five times longer than the repairs of tank's main components are done. And then there are infinite crits instead of a kill so this piece of steel with a gun literally never dies. This makes the game more biased to the tank divisions at most.

Actually, game WAS pretty realistic when there were no fixable crits. I liked when even if I didn't kill a vehicle, but did a crit, this thing affects vehicle to the end of game or make a tank pretty easy victim later.

Same here, but at the same time this is the main reason we struggle with player numbers. Game is too difficult for casuals and doesn't fit modern gaming trends.

We could keep on acting like elitist pricks, but finally we'll reach a line where MP will be barren

Game even with low player amount has a normal online. If I create a game it takes maximum 5 mins to fill it and start.
I don't think casual changes attracts a lot of people.

Also such short beta is bullshit.

 

[Leenday]

Same here, but at the same time this is the main reason we struggle with player numbers. Game is too difficult for casuals and doesn't fit modern gaming trends.

We could keep on acting like elitist pricks, but finally we'll reach a line where MP will be barren

Might be the wrong thread to leave such an opinion but I think the player numbers are low because the menu is noob-unfriendly and the game is noob-unfriendly. Even for me myself how could I know where does the "Quick play" button lead me without testing it, and what the custom lobbies are about? No easy management of the menu chat, I got there first time by missclicking enter. And then there's a game where you, for example, don't know the purpose of the leaders so you don't use them and then get your whole town plunged and surrendered. This way the loss is not so frustrating as it is shaming.
Also I've noticed that new players tend to play well with AT guns though they don't use artillery and recon a lot. Worst thing is you smash ATs with any 1200 HE (StuH, M4 105) and this could cost a game afterwards. Also it may seem obvious that open-top vehicles are vulnerable to air and arty so you'd try strafing a Hellcat but open-top means nothing in this game too.
It takes time to understand some parts of the game and you will only lose while learning. That's why a lot of people bought it and barely anyone plays it.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

This is true only for british. They used solid APCBC shells with no explosive impact when it penetrated the vehicle. Other countries like USSR, Germany and (for the most part) USA used APCBC's (russians used a cheaper version of APBC's or APHEBC's), generally with a back side of explosive material (TNT-like type) of a very low but deadly in close quarters amount (20-50g). Bear in mind that a penetration hit also creates a lot of shrapnel in the insides (especially on the tanks, which armor is conducted by rivets: upon a penetration they tend to act like a shrapnel in the interior.). So the initial explosive burst with a shrapnel were enough to take the tank out of the action completely with one shot almost every time.

The problem with that argument is that the US AFV guns for the important part of the war were atrocious. Wasn't until they started getting the 90mm in any appreciable numbers in the dying stage of the war (and only on a couple of platforms) did they get a loosely comparable gun to the other nations. Soviet metallurgy had problems for both ammunition and tank armour.

The 'HE loaded AP shells were better' is a total crock when you have a solid shot ricocheting around a tank interior chopping bodies into chunks...in fact, it's a total BS argument. Passing through both sides of an actual tank was very rare, solid shot bounced around interiors, either as pieces or in entirety.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Same here, but at the same time this is the main reason we struggle with player numbers. Game is too difficult for casuals and doesn't fit modern gaming trends.

We could keep on acting like elitist pricks, but finally we'll reach a line where MP will be barren

It's not elitism to want a simplified workable game that reflects 'thematic' realism and is simple to play...wheeling up supply trucks to do repair is (a) crap; and (b) another layer of fart-arsing around added to a game with a low player base. The old 'non-penetrating non-kill hit' causing a stun was far better than this current system.

If we want 'World of Tanks', we'll play 'World of Tanks', rather than SD.

 

[Leenday]

The problem with that argument is that the US AFV guns for the important part of the war were atrocious. Wasn't until they started getting the 90mm in any appreciable numbers in the dying stage of the war (and only on a couple of platforms) did they get a loosely comparable gun to the other nations. Soviet metallurgy had problems for both ammunition and tank armour.

The 'HE loaded AP shells were better' is a total crock when you have a solid shot ricocheting around a tank interior chopping bodies into chunks...in fact, it's a total BS argument. Passing through both sides of an actual tank was very rare, solid shot bounced around interiors, either as pieces or in entirety.

Solid AP inside of a vehicle is just a literal hot rock sponged upon a hit. It creates some shrapnel and may bounce once or twice but it's no match to the explosive value of a basic APCBC's backside. Probably exactly these solid AP would create this game's cute "crits" doing nothing and maybe wounding one of the crewmen. Worst thing of it is it hits actual tank interior - optics and fuel, that's why crew would leave the tank anyway.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Solid AP inside of a vehicle is just a literal hot rock sponged upon a hit. It creates some shrapnel and may bounce once or twice but it's no match to the explosive value of a basic APCBC's backside. Probably exactly these solid AP would create this game's cute "crits" doing nothing and maybe wounding one of the crewmen. Worst thing of it is it hits actual tank interior - optics and fuel, that's why crew would leave the tank anyway.

You do understand the velocity of those slugs bouncing around the inside of a tank, don't you? While penetration soaks up a lot of energy, it doesn't soak up enough to prevent them bouncing around.

The people that put that small charge in the US AP rounds were the same people that under-gunned US tanks to begin with.

 

[Gilmund]

That's why a lot of people bought it and barely anyone plays it.

1/7 of the people having bought SD are still playing it according to steam stats which is about the same curve or even a better one than most titles. Actually AAA games have worse curves.
There are two main reasons the game didn't sell though, the first one is the genre, nobody plays RTS it's just a fact, it is a complicated genre liked by 90's players so it does narrow the playerbase immediately AND, perhaps the main reason, there was probly a communication failure until the release.
I was reading the devs from Shadow Tactics reviving the Commandos genre speaking about the release of Shadow Tactics one year ago (which was a sell success for this kind of game), they were struggling to make publicity for their game and even a few days before launch old Commandos players in board communities said they never heard about the development of Shadow Tactics at all and it was a pleasant surprise. They largely count on their community to make the publicity for them and reach some kind of players and they even made something which doesn't exist anymore : a demo. Like older RTS tend to do.

Maybe the RTS player is older and more picky about the game he is buying...

 

[TorgoW]

We could keep on acting like elitist pricks, but finally we'll reach a line where MP will be barren

Maybe they could have a non-prick MP lobby?

It takes time to understand some parts of the game and you will only lose while learning. That's why a lot of people bought it and barely anyone plays it.

I'm almost ready for MP, but every dang time I watch a game on youtube I realize I have 3 or 4 more things to practice. Mostly micro stuff like avoiding counter battery, using smoke, etc. Then I thought I had it, and this huge Santa patch came and there was a lot to relearn. Like playing armored divisions... Tanks went from crazy fragile to crazy tough. It always used to drive me nuts that they would get one shot killed, and now it drives me nuts watching them get 6 shot killed. Will they re-invent the damage process again soon? Will they allow tanks in buildings?

 

[Sconna]

These are the new crit rolls

Critical Ammo Explosion = DEATH
Internal Fragments = DEATH
Fuel Explosion = DEATH
Crew killed = DEATH

Ammo Explosion = 100% ammo loss, 5 sec gun stun
Shooter Wounded = 10 sec gun stun
Driver Wounded = 10 sec movement and rotation stun
Crew Wounded = 10 sec gun, movement rotation stun
Internal Fire = 20 sec gun stun, 2 damage, 75% ammo loss
Turret/guns jammed = Can't shoot, repairable
Transmission Damaged = 50% speed loss, 50% rotation speed loss, repairable
Ammo Storage hit = 50% Ammo loss, 3 sec gun stun
Track/Wheels damaged = 50% speed and rotation loss, repairable
Tracks/Wheels broken = Can't move or rotate, repairable
Bailed out = 100% Gun, Speed, rotation, vision loss, repairable
Engine Destroyed = 100% Speed ad rotation loss, 5 sec gun stun


Pierce Front Rolls
1 = Critical Ammo Explosion
2 = Internal Fragments
3 = Fuel explosion
4 = Crew killed
5 = Bailed Out
6-7 = Ammo Explosion
8-9 = Shooter Wounded
10-12 = Driver Wounded
13 = Crew Wounded
14 = Internal fire 20 sec gun stun, 2 damage, 75% ammo lost
15 = Turret/guns jammed
16 = Transmission damaged
17 = Ammo Storage Hit
18-19 = Tracks/Wheels damaged
20 = Tracks/wheels broken

Pierce Side Rolls
1-2 = Critical Ammo Explosion
3-5 = Fuel Explosion
6 = Crew killed
7 = Bailed Out
8-9 = Tracks/Wheels damaged
10 = Turret/guns jammed
11 = Ammo storage Hit
12-13 = Tracks/wheels broken
14-15 = Transmission damaged
16 = Crew Wounded
17 = Internal fire
18-20 = Engine Destroyed

Pierce Rear Rolls
1-3 = Critical ammo explosion
4-7 = Fuel Explosion
8-11 = Crew killed
12-13 = Transmission damaged
14 = Ammo storage Hit
15 = Bailed out
16 = Turret/guns jammed
17 = Internal fire
18-20 = Engine destroyed


Bounce Front
1-17 = Bounce
18 = shooter knocked out
19 = Driver knocked out
20 = Crew knocked out

Bounce Side
1-13 = Bounce
14 = Track Wheel damaged
15 = Shooter knocked out
16 = Driver knocked out
17 = Crew knocked out
18 = Ammo storage Hit
19-20 = Engine Stalled

Bounce Rear
1-8 = Bounce
8-12 = Engine Stalled
13 = Tracks/Wheels broken
14-15 = Transmission damaged
16 = Shooter knocked out
17 = Track/Wheel damaged
18 = Crew knocked out
19 = Ammo storage Hit
20 Turret/Guns jammed

 

[Alex646]

@Sconna, thanks for investigating.

Internal Fragments = DEATH

Maybe, this is bug, but I have never seen death of vehicle from this crit.

So, this means 25% to kill from front, 35% - from side, 55% from rear.
Eugens, you should provide this info in patchlog, not player looking through game data. *facepalm*

 

[Protosszocker]

@Sconna, thanks for investigating.


Maybe, this is bug, but I have never seen death of vehicle from this crit.

So, this means 25% to kill from front, 35% - from side, 55% from rear.
Eugens, you should provide this info in patchlog, not player looking through game data. *facepalm*

+ death by hitpoints. Each pen deals hit point dmg. If there is not kill figure shown the vehilce died by hitpoint kill.

 

[Leenday]

Pierce Front Rolls
1 = Critical Ammo Explosion
2 = Internal Fragments
3 = Fuel explosion
4 = Crew killed
5 = Bailed Out
6-7 = Ammo Explosion
8-9 = Shooter Wounded
10-12 = Driver Wounded
13 = Crew Wounded
14 = Internal fire 20 sec gun stun, 2 damage, 75% ammo lost
15 = Turret/guns jammed
16 = Transmission damaged
17 = Ammo Storage Hit
18-19 = Tracks/Wheels damaged
20 = Tracks/wheels broken

Oh, so it was actually TRUE? If you penetrate front, you only get 20% chance to kill a tank. And tracks/wheels damaged even rolls twice (just to make me angry I suppose)
So AT guns are basically dead men trying to kill invincible machines rolling at them. And basically 3 AT guns worth 2 tanks, though AT guns get pummeled and tanks never die.

If you are playing non-armored deck this patch, you are a masochist.

 

[HallBregg]

These are the new crit rolls

Critical Ammo Explosion = DEATH
Internal Fragments = DEATH
Fuel Explosion = DEATH
Crew killed = DEATH

Ammo Explosion = 100% ammo loss, 5 sec gun stun
Shooter Wounded = 10 sec gun stun
Driver Wounded = 10 sec movement and rotation stun
Crew Wounded = 10 sec gun, movement rotation stun
Internal Fire = 20 sec gun stun, 2 damage, 75% ammo loss
Turret/guns jammed = Can't shoot, repairable
Transmission Damaged = 50% speed loss, 50% rotation speed loss, repairable
Ammo Storage hit = 50% Ammo loss, 3 sec gun stun
Track/Wheels damaged = 50% speed and rotation loss, repairable
Tracks/Wheels broken = Can't move or rotate, repairable
Bailed out = 100% Gun, Speed, rotation, vision loss, repairable
Engine Destroyed = 100% Speed ad rotation loss, 5 sec gun stun


Pierce Front Rolls
1 = Critical Ammo Explosion
2 = Internal Fragments
3 = Fuel explosion
4 = Crew killed
5 = Bailed Out
6-7 = Ammo Explosion
8-9 = Shooter Wounded
10-12 = Driver Wounded
13 = Crew Wounded
14 = Internal fire 20 sec gun stun, 2 damage, 75% ammo lost
15 = Turret/guns jammed
16 = Transmission damaged
17 = Ammo Storage Hit
18-19 = Tracks/Wheels damaged
20 = Tracks/wheels broken

Pierce Side Rolls
1-2 = Critical Ammo Explosion
3-5 = Fuel Explosion
6 = Crew killed
7 = Bailed Out
8-9 = Tracks/Wheels damaged
10 = Turret/guns jammed
11 = Ammo storage Hit
12-13 = Tracks/wheels broken
14-15 = Transmission damaged
16 = Crew Wounded
17 = Internal fire
18-20 = Engine Destroyed

Pierce Rear Rolls
1-3 = Critical ammo explosion
4-7 = Fuel Explosion
8-11 = Crew killed
12-13 = Transmission damaged
14 = Ammo storage Hit
15 = Bailed out
16 = Turret/guns jammed
17 = Internal fire
18-20 = Engine destroyed


Bounce Front
1-17 = Bounce
18 = shooter knocked out
19 = Driver knocked out
20 = Crew knocked out

Bounce Side
1-13 = Bounce
14 = Track Wheel damaged
15 = Shooter knocked out
16 = Driver knocked out
17 = Crew knocked out
18 = Ammo storage Hit
19-20 = Engine Stalled

Bounce Rear
1-8 = Bounce
8-12 = Engine Stalled
13 = Tracks/Wheels broken
14-15 = Transmission damaged
16 = Shooter knocked out
17 = Track/Wheel damaged
18 = Crew knocked out
19 = Ammo storage Hit
20 Turret/Guns jammed

Thanks a lot for the info!! The kill % on pen are rly way to low. What were they thinking at Eugen?

 

[Protosszocker]

Oh, so it was actually TRUE? If you penetrate front, you only get 20% chance to kill a tank. And tracks/wheels damaged even rolls twice (just to make me angry I suppose)
So AT guns are basically dead men trying to kill invincible machines rolling at them. And basically 3 AT guns worth 2 tanks, though AT guns get pummeled and tanks never die.

If you are playing non-armored deck this patch, you are a masochist.

its 20% by dice
+ X% by dmg dealt. Kt for example has 12 HP, Greyhound 6 I think, an small at gun deals 4 dmg, a big one 6-8 If I recall right.