Romanisation

[Sjiveru]

The Nobufusa name is pretty cool though, isn't it?

True ^_^
The way I would think that name as a whole should be written is Chuuzenji Nobufusa-hatamoto. (I could be wrong.)

I don't think the の is ever abbreviated out of his name?

Well, if you read the kanji in the name all that's written there is Fujiwara Michinaga -- you have to interpolate the no.

 

[SlyEcho]

You want them to use pre-modern spelling?

No, they could only use pre-modern spelling if they made the game in Japanese. What I meant was more along the lines of おお and おう both being ō. The original question was about the pronounciation of お・う, I'm not an expert in Japanese phonology but it seems to me that it's not implausible that it's also ō. At least in the Sengoku jidai.

 

[semaphore]

True ^_^
The way I would think that name as a whole should be written is Chuuzenji Nobufusa-hatamoto. (I could be wrong.)

I think Hatamoto would come first. Either way it's terribly misplaced in a Sengoku game; but thankfully Paradox has changed that.

Well, if you read the kanji in the name all that's written there is Fujiwara Michinaga -- you have to interpolate the no.

Yeah, but I think khannate meant the pronunciation.

No, they could only use pre-modern spelling if they made the game in Japanese. What I meant was more along the lines of おお and おう both being ō. The original question was about the pronounciation of お・う, I'm not an expert in Japanese phonology but it seems to me that it's not implausible that it's also ō. At least in the Sengoku jidai.

I don't understand. おう and おお are both ō.

 

[Sjiveru]

I don't understand. おう and おお are both ō.

I think what the discussion is about is the few places where the u is pronounced separately during slower speech (思う for example, since historically it was 思ふ, pronounced omowu), but it most definitely combines with the o to form ô when speaking normally.
I'm not aware of any such places outside of verbs, though, and if the game is in English there's not going to be any reason to write any Japanese verbs.

 

[khannate]

I don't understand. おう and おお are both ō.

Formally, おお　is pronounced 'o'/'oh', whereas おう is pronounced 'ou'/'ow', though in informal situation often おう　is pronounced o'/'oh'.
e.g.　高校（highschool), formally こうこう（Koukou), but informally(koko).
So both ō and ou are acceptable for the romanisation of おう, but I prefer ou
when it is written.　

 

[Järnblomma]

Formally, おお　is pronounced 'o'/'oh', whereas おう is pronounced 'ou'/'ow', though in informal situation often おう　is pronounced o'/'oh'.
e.g.　高校（highschool), formally こうこう（Koukou), but informally(koko).
So both ō and ou are acceptable for the romanisation of おう, but I prefer ou
when it is written.　

This.
(though I prefer kôkô )

 

[semaphore]

Formally, おお　is pronounced 'o'/'oh', whereas おう is pronounced 'ou'/'ow', though in informal situation often おう　is pronounced o'/'oh'.
e.g.　高校（highschool), formally こうこう（Koukou), but informally(koko).
So both ō and ou are acceptable for the romanisation of おう, but I prefer ou
when it is written.　

Is it really a matter of formality? I was under the impression that おう is supposed to be a long o sound because its a diphthong, except when one is slowly enunciating the word.

 

[khannate]

Is it really a matter of formality? I was under the impression that おう is supposed to be a long o sound because its a diphthong, except when one is slowly enunciating the word.

I believe in formal occasions like in a speech, each letter is pronounced more clearly and distinctively, and consequently the speaker speaks more slowly, while in informal occasions people tend to speak more quickly, and words can be corrupted in order to do so, for instance the phrease Arigatougozaimasu(Thank you) is shortened to Azzasu. It seems to me ou->ō is another instance for this.

 

[Garak]

You know, I think the truth is, the majority of people won't know the difference. What's the difference in pronounciation between Totomi and Totomi with the lines over the O? I don't have the faintest idea. My keyboard can't even reproduce most of these marks. I have to think that a lot of players, particularly English speakers, since we don't use accent marks at all, will just mentally filter all such marks out anyway.

 

[Sakura]

You know, I think the truth is, the majority of people won't know the difference.

Probably, but this is also likely true for most things having to do with Sengoku Japan. It's not a very high standard.

 

[Sjiveru]

I don't really think 'no one cares' is a valid excuse for inaccuracy, at least when it's this easy to be accurate. Those who don't care won't mind accuracy any more than inaccuracy, and those who do care will be forever grateful.

And perhaps the presence of something unrecognised -- the lines above the os -- will spur one or two people on to look up how it's supposed to be pronounced, and learn something new in the process. The absence of something unrecognised just leaves everyone ignorant, even those who would rather not be.

 

[Garak]

I don't really think 'no one cares' is a valid excuse for inaccuracy, at least when it's this easy to be accurate. Those who don't care won't mind accuracy any more than inaccuracy, and those who do care will be forever grateful.

And perhaps the presence of something unrecognised -- the lines above the os -- will spur one or two people on to look up how it's supposed to be pronounced, and learn something new in the process. The absence of something unrecognised just leaves everyone ignorant, even those who would rather not be.

Except it's not really that simple. I don't speak Japanese, but I know enough about translating between languages to know there's a degree of subjectivity involved, and that it only gets worse the more different the languages involved are (especially when you're dealing with different alphabets). Look, I'm not saying no concern should be made for accuracy; I'm just saying I don't think the choice between Totomi and Tootoumi is going to make a huge difference in the end product.

 

[Sjiveru]

Except it's not really that simple. I don't speak Japanese, but I know enough about translating between languages to know there's a degree of subjectivity involved, and that it only gets worse the more different the languages involved are (especially when you're dealing with different alphabets).

True, though the vast majority of the subjectivity is in the actual translation, not the transcription. With transcription, it's more of a choice of which convention to follow.

Look, I'm not saying no concern should be made for accuracy; I'm just saying I don't think the choice between Totomi and Tootoumi is going to make a huge difference in the end product.

Certainly it won't make a big difference, and I'm sure it'd be easy enough to correct manually for those of us that it bothers enough. It'd just be a nice little thing from the developers -- a way to say, 'hey, we care enough about the Japanese language that we'll represent it accurately'. To me, use of inaccurate transcription systems gives a sense of 'looking from the outside in' -- a sort of statement of 'we're willing to say that we don't really know that much about the language in question'.

 

[semaphore]

I believe in formal occasions like in a speech, each letter is pronounced more clearly and distinctively, and consequently the speaker speaks more slowly, while in informal occasions people tend to speak more quickly, and words can be corrupted in order to do so, for instance the phrease Arigatougozaimasu(Thank you) is shortened to Azzasu. It seems to me ou->ō is another instance for this.

I don't think that's how it works. azzasu is an abbreviation, and it's also used in writing. By contrast, ou->ō isn't actually shorter, it's just a slightly changed pronunciation. I don't think we ever hear school pronounced as ga-ko-u, for instance, nor do you see it written as がっこ, but instead you can find examples がっこー.

I'm just saying I don't think the choice between Totomi and Tootoumi is going to make a huge difference in the end product.

But what else are we supposed to talk about, until the devs start throwing out dev diaries?

 

[SeedSnatcher]

This game needs an option to have the place names in kanji.

 

[Johhog]

No. The only really accepted way to romanize japanese is writing Tōtōmi, and if this is not possible, for the sake of ease I prefer Totomi over Tôtômi or (may heaven forbid this spelling) Tootoumi.

 

[Garak]

True, though the vast majority of the subjectivity is in the actual translation, not the transcription. With transcription, it's more of a choice of which convention to follow.


Certainly it won't make a big difference, and I'm sure it'd be easy enough to correct manually for those of us that it bothers enough. It'd just be a nice little thing from the developers -- a way to say, 'hey, we care enough about the Japanese language that we'll represent it accurately'. To me, use of inaccurate transcription systems gives a sense of 'looking from the outside in' -- a sort of statement of 'we're willing to say that we don't really know that much about the language in question'.

Well, I agree in general. Personally, it's not something that matters a great deal to me, personally. I'm quite used to place names in Paradox games being strange and inconsistent.

 

[StephenT]

No. The only really accepted way to romanize japanese is writing Tōtōmi, and if this is not possible, for the sake of ease I prefer Totomi over Tôtômi or (may heaven forbid this spelling) Tootoumi.

That would be my vote too. Ideally, I'd like the names to be displayed in the game with macrons, but for the province search to work with or without them: so on the map, you see Tōtōmi, but typing Totomi in the search box will also find it. Remember, the name of modern Japan's capital city is written in English as Tokyo, not Tookyou or whatever...

As for Tootoumi, to a native English-speaker's eyes that looks like the name of a village in Finland, not a Japanese province.

 

[Captain Gars]

No. The only really accepted way to romanize japanese is writing Tōtōmi, and if this is not possible, for the sake of ease I prefer Totomi over Tôtômi or (may heaven forbid this spelling) Tootoumi.

That would be my vote too. Ideally, I'd like the names to be displayed in the game with macrons, but for the province search to work with or without them: so on the map, you see Tōtōmi, but typing Totomi in the search box will also find it. Remember, the name of modern Japan's capital city is written in English as Tokyo, not Tookyou or whatever...

As for Tootoumi, to a native English-speaker's eyes that looks like the name of a village in Finland, not a Japanese province.

I'm not sure how we will do it yet, but personally I agree with this.

 

[Sjiveru]

Ideally, I'd like the names to be displayed in the game with macrons, but for the province search to work with or without them: so on the map, you see Tōtōmi, but typing Totomi in the search box will also find it.

That solution is probably the best of both worlds -- displaying accurate pronunciation without causing any issues.
(The province finder should always allow people to ignore diacritics.)