Maku said:Done
Nono, not [*QUOTE=Blaa] but [*/QUOTE]. Without those * marks of course.
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Nono, not [*QUOTE=Blaa] but [*/QUOTE]. Without those * marks of course.
Well, I spent many frustraing hours this weekend trying to come up with a set of events that could turn a generic regional revolter like 'California' into a cultural specific nation with no luck. It appears that the 'provinceculture' trigger is broken and dosn't work. There are a couple threads that mention this fact, but I didn't search for them until -after- a whole lot of failed experiments. If there's any intrest in this idea, each cultural revolter would have to have it's own unique revolution event set.
BTW: In 1.0 there are no flags for the new revolters like California nor are they written into text.csv, they just come up as undefined nations.
If there's any intrest in this idea, each cultural revolter would have to have it's own unique revolution event set.BTW: In 1.0 there are no flags for the new revolters like California nor are they written into text.csv, they just come up as undefined nations.
Depending on what we do with Japan (if we go with the above idea), how about this for China. Mongols make their invasion of Japan and win, the rebellion happens and Japan breaks away from the Mongol’s China. This sends shock waves though China and rebellions begin to spring up (if one area can break away and push them out why can't we). At first they are disorganized and easily crushed, however, eventually, one in the far south gains a slight foothold and begins to push the Mongols back.
It is mainly sugessful because of a great charismatic leader (insert name here). The Mongols are never brought to a truly deceive battle, but by 1346 they are pushed almost out of China, however (leaders name) is found dead the night before what should have been the final battle. The resulting confusion of not having a clear cut leader saves the Mongols, and they fight them to a draw, stopping the Chinese from pushing them completely out.
In the resulting chaos from what is perceived as a defeat, with no true hare, that the generals came from all over the counties, and none of the generals really trusted each other, results in a fragmentation of the hard won territory. Forcanitly for them, the Mongol had been so beat up, they could only really hold on to what they had left and could not advance on to the fragmented states in the south.
Now 60 years later, one state has gained dominance in south, however, an invasion and massive pillaging by a revitalize Mongol state in the north, and the fact that most of the all battles have been fought on their territory, have left lots of their land burned and scared. The invasion is turned back with massive losses on both sides. One of the last remaining state, based in Shanghi has been virtually untouched by the wars, focusing instead outward on building trade and wealth, now look to expand their continental holdings under a bright young new leader.
The Mongols tossed almost everything they had into their invasion of the south, and is ready to collapse, and the southern state is nearly bankrupt cause of the constant wars and the devastation that has happened in their main provinces. This sets the stage for the rise of the trading city state that would look outward a little more if it gained complete control of the mainland, but maybe not as much as Japan.
Just testing the idea out on you guys.
It is mainly sugessful because of a great charismatic leader (insert name here). The Mongols are never brought to a truly deceive battle, but by 1346 they are pushed almost out of China, however (leaders name) is found dead the night before what should have been the final battle. The resulting confusion of not having a clear cut leader saves the Mongols, and they fight them to a draw, stopping the Chinese from pushing them completely out.
In the resulting chaos from what is perceived as a defeat, with no true hare, that the generals came from all over the counties, and none of the generals really trusted each other, results in a fragmentation of the hard won territory. Forcanitly for them, the Mongol had been so beat up, they could only really hold on to what they had left and could not advance on to the fragmented states in the south.
Now 60 years later, one state has gained dominance in south, however, an invasion and massive pillaging by a revitalize Mongol state in the north, and the fact that most of the all battles have been fought on their territory, have left lots of their land burned and scared. The invasion is turned back with massive losses on both sides. One of the last remaining state, based in Shanghi has been virtually untouched by the wars, focusing instead outward on building trade and wealth, now look to expand their continental holdings under a bright young new leader.
The Mongols tossed almost everything they had into their invasion of the south, and is ready to collapse, and the southern state is nearly bankrupt cause of the constant wars and the devastation that has happened in their main provinces. This sets the stage for the rise of the trading city state that would look outward a little more if it gained complete control of the mainland, but maybe not as much as Japan.
Just testing the idea out on you guys.
Calanctus said:Kublai didn't invade Japan until after he had a firm grip on China, and even with the manpower and resources of the entire country, he failed to subdue Japan... Admittedly, the first time was due to luck.
Otoh the first invasion was without having subdued southern china - and maybe a much more dramatic failure (if that is in any way possible, maybe he went along on the fleet and was sunk and died) could have caused the invaders to split into two nations and allowing southern china to survive while invaders started infighting?
Hmm... Interesting idea. Two Mongol dynasties? I could see that. One controlling Manchuria and Northeast China, the other with Tibet/Central Asia/Northwest China. Or maybe a bunch of Mongol statelets, with a giant Sung jellyfish helpless to combat its own corruption and backwardsness enough to be able to assume full control of the country again... The stage would be set for the rise of another great Chinese power... But will this power be able to halt the ambitions of a rejuvenated Japanese Empire?Nikolai II said:
By the way, the Song fell in the late 1370s IIRC... Not too many years from the first invasion.
Now, as kind of a synthesis of the ideas in this thread, I present a short history of East Asia during the Yuan period:
With most of China under his rule, Kublai turned his eyes to the rich and populous islands of Japan. The warriors of that island were famed for their ferocity and it was a notoriously difficult place to control, but the Mongols had crushed other warrior people, had established control in places that had never seen it. Why would Japan be any different?
So he commissioned a fleet to be built by 1274. Unexpectedly, a fire in the Koryo city of Masan, probably set by a Chinese or Korean shipwright who resented Mongol rule, delayed the construction of the invasion fleet by another year. This was fortunate, because the weather that year, as some Chinese historians of the era observed, was chaotic, and would have proven disastrous for any invasion. The Mongols smashed the Japanese fleet off of Tsushima Strait in 1275, and the invading force landed on Kyushu and quickly subdued the surrounding countryside. In a great battle at Chikugo province, the 60,000-strong invasion force faced off against 25,000 samurai and fought to a bloody stalemate, largely because the bulk of the invading army was composed of untrained Chinese peasant levies. This left Kublai with control of northwestern Kyushu. Five years later, having fully subdued the Sung, Kublai then launched another invasion of Kyushu, using what he controlled as a staging area. Though he added some territory to his holdings in Japan, the Mongol army was once again fought to a bloody stalemate. Kublai died in 1294 while planning another--much larger--invasion of Japan, and his grandson, Öljeyitü Khan, never made quite the same effort. As a result, western Kyushu was eventually reconquered by armies under a new emperor, Go-Daigo, who assumed the throne in 1318. The invasion in 1324 was triggered by Go-Daigo's proclamation to the peasants of the occupied territories, commanding them to burn their farms and leave the provinces so that the Mongols would have no supplies. This, combined with aid from Japanese rebel leaders in the occupied provinces, resulted in the complete annihilation of the occupying armies, and control over all of Japan was to revert to the emperor.
Go-Daigo was an emperor who believed in the direct ruling authority of emperors over shoguns, and he enforced it. After the reconquest of western Kyushu, which the emperor used as a rallying cry to draw support to him, one of his generals, Ashikaga Takauji, revolted, and gave his support to Go-Daigo's cousin (the Kogon Emperor in our timeline) in a bid to establish a new shogunate, and control over Japan. Because of the support for the emperor that the Mongol invasion and occupation of Kyushu had created, Ashikaga Takauji's rebellion was crushed. Go-Daigo, first in a long line of strong emperors, feared further such attempts to control the emperor's power, and he quickly began humbling the great clans and families and taking territory under the direct control of the throne.
In China, Kublai and Öljeyitü's descendants became increasingly Chinese in dress and manner, eventually abandoning the Mongol language and customs completely. As Mongol support for the Yuan dynasty waned, so too did Chinese support. With the reconquest/revolt of Kyushu in 1324, many Chinese leaders saw a weakness in the Yuan dynasty, and what followed was a massive revolt against Mongol rule. For the next thirty years, the ailing Yuan dynasty futilely fought collapse. As various warlords carved out their own empires in China, it became apparent that two factions had a distinct lead over the rest in terms of areas of conquest and influence: the faction led by Liu Meng, a young noble from a largely Buddhist tradition, and Zhu Yuanzhang (the Hongwu Ming Emperor in our timeline), a peasant who painted himself as a defender of Confucianism and had a lot of support among the common people. Over the next few years these two and their respective followers fought many battles for control of China. Zhu Yuanzhang's lack of support from the nobility would be his downfall, and he was crushed by Liu Meng in 1373. Before Liu Meng could crown himself emperor, however, he was assassinated by supporters of Zhu Yuanzhang's son, Zhu Biao. In the ensuing chaos, Zhu Biao raised an army and managed to win back most of his father's old lands, but he was held back from invading those territories administered by Liu Meng's heirs by the infant heir of Liu Meng's regent, Yue Haifeng. In the end, then, neither could draw together the necessary support and crush the other and proclaim a new dynasty, and so China entered another era of warring states, all vying for control.
With nobody strong enough to fully take control, the various cities along the coast and Yangtse took matters into their own hands. They elected an aging distant descendant of the Song emperors, Guo Yong, to the post of kingship, and so, strangely, a kingdom, with real power being held by the dominant merchant class, rose along the banks of the Yangtse.
The Manchu, also sensing opportunity in the lack of any central Chinese authority, carved out an empire of their own in northern China.
The Mongols managed to hold on to the fringes of western China and most of Tibet, but never again would they have the power to rule from Beijing.
And, finally, Japan, much like the Manchu, used the opportunity to expand their power, and the descendants of Go-Daigo became emperors of Japan and Korea.
So, what do we end up with in 1419? Two states of nomads holding on to the fringes of northern and western China; a semi-major merchant-dominated state controlling East Asian trade, kind of like a Chinese Hanseatic League; and two Chinese kingdoms forever at odds with each other for the emperorship: one xenophobic, Confucian, land-oriented, and eventually to become backwards, the other expansionistic, Buddhist, navally-oriented and (possibly) to become a technological monster.
And, of course, an expansionistic, probably colonial Japan under a strong emperor.
Anyway... Let me know what you guys think.
I'm still more in favour of Japan going under to the Mongols initially and then throwing them out again. Maybe that's just bias in favour of my own idea but I prefer the dramatic feel of it compared to bloody draw followed by second bloody draw and then expulsion. One of the most defining things about Japanese history in our timeline is that it has avoided any invasion by a foreign power (unless you count US consumerism ) and I think it would be fun to change that.
On the other hand, your idea for a split in China between a Buddhist and a Confusion leader is really good! I think that has a lot of potential and introduces a nice additional point of difference between factions. In fact I like most of your China scenario.
Having a couple of Mongol-Chinese states is nice, although it might be difficult to have the Manchu rise to become a significant power since this could see them get squeezed between the proposed northern Mongol state and Japan, if it colonises in Siberia (which may not happen depending on how this evolves)
Maybe the northern Mongol state could be Mongol/Manchu and the western Mongol state could be Mongol/Chinese?
Or, I suppose if the northern Mongols are a bit further south then a separate Manchu nation could also be a coloniser in Siberia, which now that I think about may be a good way of keeping Japan on a Naval orientation instead of just an island state spreading down the Siberian corridor.
Still the China debate is fun and will probably turn out to be easier than the twisty knot of horror waiting in South East Asia
but I prefer the dramatic feel of it compared to bloody draw followed by second bloody draw and then expulsion. One of the most defining things about Japanese history in our timeline is that it has avoided any invasion by a foreign power (unless you count US consumerism ) and I think it would be fun to change that. On the other hand, your idea for a split in China between a Buddhist and a Confusion leader is really good!
I think that has a lot of potential and introduces a nice additional point of difference between factions. In fact I like most of your China scenario. Having a couple of Mongol-Chinese states is nice, although it might be difficult to have the Manchu rise to become a significant power since this could see them get squeezed between the proposed northern Mongol state and Japan, if it colonises in Siberia (which may not happen depending on how this evolves)
Maybe the northern Mongol state could be Mongol/Manchu and the western Mongol state could be Mongol/Chinese?
Or, I suppose if the northern Mongols are a bit further south then a separate Manchu nation could also be a coloniser in Siberia, which now that I think about may be a good way of keeping Japan on a Naval orientation instead of just an island state spreading down the Siberian corridor.
Still the China debate is fun and will probably turn out to be easier than the twisty knot of horror waiting in South East Asia
How about twisting SE Asia on it's head, by having one unified peaceful multi-cultural empire instead of vanilla's ministates?
Well, as I've said, I do like your idea, which is why I tried to include as much of it as possible.Maku said:I'm still more in favour of Japan going under to the Mongols initially and then throwing them out again. Maybe that's just bias in favour of my own idea
I'm not sure if the idea of Japan completely under the sway of the Mongols is feasible, but it's not really a big deal, and if the majority prefers it that way, I'll stop arguing and we'll go with that.I was thinking that the western Mongol state would be where the Chagatai and Tibet are right now. I don't really care for the mess that is Mongolia in the AGCEEP... At least, not until they get all the kinks worked out.
I like this idea. Very aberrated. Of course, I don't know terribly much about Southeast Asia, so I don't know how plausible this is.
Calanctus said:I was thinking that the western Mongol state would be where the Chagatai and Tibet are right now. I don't really care for the mess that is Mongolia in the AGCEEP... At least, not until they get all the kinks worked out.
I like this idea. Very aberrated. Of course, I don't know terribly much about Southeast Asia, so I don't know how plausible this is.
Yeah the AGCEEP Mongolia is a bit of a nightmare, I haven't bothered to read through the whole mountain of pages of discussion that led up to it, but it looks to me like the bastard child of a thousand compromises :wacko: Your idea is much better.
A united SE Asia would be very Aberrated indeed, but I too have to question if it is really possible? That's a huge amount of really nasty moutainous/jungle terrain to hinder communication and literally dozens of conflicting ethnic groups plus a few opposing religions. Kind of like the Balkans.
Not my area of expertise either unfortunately, but I would like to see at least some relatively powerful state(s) in the area, which is sadly neglected in every other scenario. Perhaps a relatively strong Vietnamese state taking in the Khmer and Laotian areas and a large Burmanese state? Something nice in the Malacca/Aceh region would be good too.
Byakhiam said:
I'm on the line that this would be a bit too far-fetched, but having fewer, larger nations would be OK (there were many 'empires' down there that rose and fell, just look about how far they got and use that as maximums, or something..
As far as SE Asia goes, I agree that its just would not have been able to hold together an empire with all the geographic problems that the area has to a truly unified empire. Well at least in the beginning of the game, maybe later we can unite it so it can fight an united China and /or India.
I also wanted to try and put together what, I think, the general idea for the region that is forming.
-Japan is rebuilt from some sort of Mongol invasion/occupation and ready to move onwards and outwards.
-China is in a time of civil war with two larger states and a couple of minor ones. Eventually China will unite, however. (Most people seem to agree that china will end up that way. I also think that this should be a major event in the entire area, with reaction events from just about everyone in the area.)
- SE Asia needs to be several states, how they will interact and what they may become has not been discussed at all.
- Indonesia is still an open area, maybe group of small trading states that become the battle ground for Japan and the possible Polynesian state.
- There is an idea for a Polynesian state, possible competition to Japan's outward expansion
-India has not been discussed much at all, except for a general idea about several city states.
Just wanted to relook at the entire area and try and understand excatly how far we want to go.
I also wanted to try and put together what, I think, the general idea for the region that is forming.
-Japan is rebuilt from some sort of Mongol invasion/occupation and ready to move onwards and outwards.
-China is in a time of civil war with two larger states and a couple of minor ones. Eventually China will unite, however. (Most people seem to agree that china will end up that way. I also think that this should be a major event in the entire area, with reaction events from just about everyone in the area.)
- SE Asia needs to be several states, how they will interact and what they may become has not been discussed at all.
- Indonesia is still an open area, maybe group of small trading states that become the battle ground for Japan and the possible Polynesian state.
- There is an idea for a Polynesian state, possible competition to Japan's outward expansion
-India has not been discussed much at all, except for a general idea about several city states.
Just wanted to relook at the entire area and try and understand excatly how far we want to go.
IIRC, somebody wanted it split up between three spheres of influence: Muslim in the west, Buddhist in the east, and Hindu in the south.Billdo said:
Calanctus said:
Missed that one, oopps, although there really has not been much in the way of commenting on it. My comment, like the idea, religuos war. with Hindism winning, but slowly starts to fall apart towards the end. Just a thought.
How about a Sassanid Empire which never fell (or only small portions did) to the muslim advance? I could sure think of some interesting events that could be scripped for a bunch of fire worshipping "ancient" Persians.
BlkbrryTheGreat said:How about a Sassanid Empire which never fell (or only small portions did) to the muslim advance? I could sure think of some interesting events that could be scripped for a bunch of fire worshipping "ancient" Persians.
I don't know how plausible this is....but I think it sounds cool
And it would be interesting to have a relatively strong pagan country for a change.
Have to watch how it plays out though..a pagan country doing conversions on conquered territory could change the whole demographic of some regions.
Playing the Mughals in AGCEEP I've taken the turn pagan option and converted the whole of Persia to paganism then converted back to Sunni and changed Persia into a purely Mongol ethnic area.
BlkbrryTheGreat said:How about a Sassanid Empire which never fell (or only small portions did) to the muslim advance? I could sure think of some interesting events that could be scripped for a bunch of fire worshipping "ancient" Persians.
Been reading up on the Sassanid Empire and pretty much if it does not fall, Islam never expands into Mesopotamia, or possible beyond. Basically that would mean that large chunks of history would be vastly different, so that is something we would really have to look at if we wanted to do it. However, if Sassanid does lose Mesopotamia, it almost looks like it would be destined to fall as it would have to lose two decisive battles along with most of its richest lands. It already was war weary and extremely weak.
The problem is, once Islamic raiders captured the capital, there was some resistance from the deposed king, but for the most part, he was disorganized and completely unsuccessful.
If he was successful, would that mean that Islam never sped into Persia and so up into Siberia and Russia. Just a question we might want to look at, do we want to abbreviate the spread of Islam, cause this is the one area we might be able to do it.