• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

BongBong

Corporal
13 Badges
Dec 13, 2016
37
108
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Serbia and Wallachia had a historical border that i believe was there but it was removed,why is that?

I rarely see ottomans expanding directly into Hungary without taking Serbia or Wallachia first. My guess is that so the balkan Nations can call Hungary into war with ottomans and promise them land? Or so Austria can have guaranteed military access in order to be able to fight the ottomans?

I still think that Serbian-Wallachian border is more important so that these two nations can expand into each other,and also Austria can always ask Serbia or Wallachia for access,i doubt they would refuse.

EDIT:
 

Attachments

  • map-eu-se-1444.jpg
    map-eu-se-1444.jpg
    267,6 KB · Views: 249
Last edited:
  • 5
Reactions:
Upvote 0
This map is from 1439 Serbia got north of Vidin after the crusade.There are many maps to support this

Could you show some more? Currently there are only three maps in the thread.
 
Could you show some more? Currently there are only three maps in the thread.

Anyone can make a map.I'd prefer text actually explaining how the northern part of the Vidin province left Ottoman hands and stuck with Serbia between 1444 and 1439. All I see so far is guesswork based on the maps which doesn't take us very far. I also note that one of them is linked to an alternative history website.
To sum up I'd love to see an actual description of it with dates and explanations :)
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Anyone can make a map.I'd prefer text actually explaining how the northern part of the Vidin province left Ottoman hands and stuck with Serbia between 1444 and 1439. All I see so far is guesswork based on the maps which doesn't take us very far. I also note that one of them is linked to an alternative history website.
To sum up I'd love to see an actual description of it with dates and explanations :)

I searched for hours but there seems to be no information regarding north part of Vidin at all probably because its so small and insignificant.. I read many articles about peace of Szeged and each one says - Brankovic recovered entire Serbia,What could this mean? Because Serbia also used to include entire region of Vidin (including fort and town) untill Crusade of Nicopolis 1396 but lost it after crusade to ottomans. But then again Serbia also lost entire region of Nish in 1433 to the ottomans yet Nish ( other parts of Serbia only fell after 1941 ) was returned back to Serbia after the Crusade of Varna.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Despotate

The only thing i could of gather up are these pictures:


South-Eastern-Europe-Map-1444-AD.jpg
KARTA-castles1 (1).jpg



Wikipedia,as you can see there is a joint border in 1421:


Serbian_Despotate_1423.png



Serbian Despotate lost Nish to the ottomans 1433:


Serbian_Despotate_1433.png



And last one is a bit hilarious,we can't see if there is a join border because of the logo in top right corner but if you actually pay attention you can see that the area around vidin resebles area in 1421 (year 1451-54) :

Serbian_Despotate_1451.png

 
Last edited:
I'm sorry but your maps are of low quality (let's take only the one that calls Bohemia "Austrian Dominion", judging from the style of it, It's maybe a product of the XIX century Habsburg manufacturies. On my map you can see the publisher on the top left. Next one is the photoshop version of that antique map, the other 3 arguably edited from a modern map with windows paint.)

But if you don't believe me search for Várad(Oradea in Romanian) false peace or Edirne peace (1444), please take your time!

Serbia ceased exist in 1439. Despot Brankovc fled to his Hungarian lands. The Serbian Despot was always a vassal of the Hungarian ruler since 1389.

In 1389 in the battle of Rigómező (in English Kosovo I think) Serbia were dissolved as a sovereign state, Despot died. Smaller lords of the southern lands became Ottoman vassals, while on the north Lazarevic became despot & enjoyed Hungarian protectorship. In 1403 He grabbed Nándorfehérvár/Belgrád for his assistance in a civil war to Sigismund.

In 1426 Sigismund asked Lazarevic to give back Nándorfehérvár for defensive purposes, the King gave him instead the dominions of Szatmár, Világos, Csepel, Németi and Szolnok, lands worth of 50k gold annual income. This happening looks immidiately different when we look at what happened, when Durad Brankovic stepped up to be Despot. Venice occupied the Dalmatian shores, Ottomans occupied Albania. He had only one option to go for, Sigismund.

The King was like waiting for that moment, and guaranteed him and Serbia. In 1428 a crusade began with mostly Hungarian soldiers. The army were beaten near Galambóc, even Zsigmond hardly escaped the scenery. Brankovic had to make peace with the Padisah, who demanded 50k gold annually and 3k cavalry ready on a call to arms plus he had to gave two of his sons to Murad II as hostages. So techincally the costs waged on Brankovic with this war were payed by Sigismund, while diplomatically defending northern Serbia from Ottoman influence.

So you can see, Sigismund gave Hungarian lands to Brankovic to secure his alliegence and Hungarian armies manned the forts along river Sava. Any other parts of Serbia were occupied by Ottomans or Venetians. In this circumstance you cannot say, that Serbia was a sovereign state both of 1438 (F.E.) or in 1428. The despot personally attended Hungarian Diets and accepted 3 separate Hungarian rulers as overlords.

He also got unique rights from the King also. (F.E. Serbian Orthodox temples were built in Ráckeve and Szentendre where some of Serbia's population fled).

In this bargain Brankovic became THE biggest noble in Hungary. Brankovic inherited every land he held and respected every oath he made.

Let's jump in time.

The year is 1437, Sigismund died, with claiming Albert von Habsburg as heir if he organizes a crusade. Next year Albert gathered a large army and marched south. Ottomans were faster organizing and had already laid siege on the fort of Szendrő, while Albert was camping in Titel (where river Duna and Tisza unites). Unfortunately disease broke out in the camp (the one that made people vomit and shit blood), the King was infected and died too the army were disbanded.

Brankovic was an open supporter of this crusade, so Ottoman avenge came. Both sons of Brankovic were blinded, and Serbia was pillaged. Brankovic had to fled to Szatmár, Hungary.

Before telling you why Serbia despite all I wrote was a sovereign state in 1444 nov 11, now do you agree that Brankovic was a vassal of Hungary in for example 1439?
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Anyone can make a map.I'd prefer text actually explaining how the northern part of the Vidin province left Ottoman hands and stuck with Serbia between 1444 and 1439. All I see so far is guesswork based on the maps which doesn't take us very far. I also note that one of them is linked to an alternative history website.
To sum up I'd love to see an actual description of it with dates and explanations :)

My map is a correct, academically published (1997) one and used in education.
red arrows = Hunyadi's movements
green arrows = Ottoman movements
battle sign with colour = winner of the battle
red underline with date in square = peace deal with time
red stars = forts
Havasalföldi fejedelemség (magyar vagy török hűbér) = Wallachian Duchy (vassal of either Hungary or Ottomans)

c0104cse049.jpg


If you have question don't bother asking, I left history(+english) classes on university after 3 years, I didn't want to be teacher, but the Hungarian-Ottomans wars was always my favourite.

The border of Serbia in 1444 which defined by the Edirne peace deal (1444 jun 12) which was "signed"
by Wladyslaw in Várad (top right of the map).

If you have the time this night or tomorrow I will post the reason why the Ottomans (partly) respected the deal despite the backstabbings made by Durad Brankovic.
 
Though I'm sad to tell you that EU4 map is not historically correct, as there should be a long Hungarian fort province (Nándorfehérvár or Srebenik) separating all neighboring provinces form Donji-Kranj/Zagreb to Srbija/Bács.

Futhermore stories I'm about to write will undermine Hadim Sehabeddin's 3-3 skills :D
 
Last edited:
I searched for hours but there seems to be no information regarding north part of Vidin at all probably because its so small and insignificant.. I read many articles about peace of Szeged and each one says - Brankovic recovered entire Serbia,What could this mean? Because Serbia also used to include entire region of Vidin (including fort and town) untill Crusade of Nicopolis 1396 but lost it after crusade to ottomans.
...

How can the area of Vidin have belonged to Serbia until 1396 when until 1396 it was a semi-independant part of Bulgaria until it’s fall to the Ottomans?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsardom_of_Vidin
 
  • 1
Reactions:
How can the area of Vidin have belonged to Serbia until 1396 when until 1396 it was a semi-independant part of Bulgaria until it’s fall to the Ottomans?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsardom_of_Vidin
I found some relevant information from those years about Vidin or its surroundings:
In 1442 mar the Bey of Vidin, Mesid led a force 30-40k strong to Transylvania, and was defeated decisively by Hunyadi's 10k army, the whole turkish army were disbanded. To these news himself "the Sehabeddin" came with the rumelian forces, but he was beaten as well in the battle of Vidin (Vaskapui csata in HUN) 1442 jul.
 
I searched for hours but there seems to be no information regarding north part of Vidin at all probably because its so small and insignificant.. I read many articles about peace of Szeged and each one says - Brankovic recovered entire Serbia,What could this mean? Because Serbia also used to include entire region of Vidin (including fort and town) untill Crusade of Nicopolis 1396 but lost it after crusade to ottomans. But then again Serbia also lost entire region of Nish in 1433 to the ottomans yet Nish ( other parts of Serbia only fell after 1941 ) was returned back to Serbia after the Crusade of Varna.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Despotate

Wikipedia is good for finding good sources at the bottom of the page.

Look at this for example:

From other sources I know, that the Serbian Despot had little but rather no influence on southern serbian districts and Montenegro.

None of your maps mention Montenegro as a sovereign state, while there was this guy, who with Venetian support declared independence in 1435(?)

Gojcin Crnojevic Montenegrin Despot (1435-1451)
But to show real wiki fashion there's a sentence which says
"He was Montenegrin ruler who revolted against Stephan Lazarevic"
(in 1435?... i wish i could speak serb, Is there someone who is dedicated enough to look this book up in the library? :D
Други син Којчин (Гојчин, Gоуcinus), са титулом најпре кнеза а потом војводе, у почетку је био главна личност међу браћом. Помиње се од 1431. Одржавао је добре односе са Дубровником.)

Cause Stephan Lazarevic died in 1427, but as a source I found mentions in 1440, Durad Brankovic visited Zeta to try to save his collapsing realm and the Crnojevic family greeted him as their overlord.
In 1444 on the other hand every source I've seen mentions Montenegro as a separate country.
 
+
Wikipedia is good for finding good sources at the bottom of the page.
Други син Којчин (Гојчин, Gоуcinus), са титулом најпре кнеза а потом војводе, у почетку је био главна личност међу браћом. Помиње се од 1431. Одржавао је добре односе са Дубровником.)
Second son of Goycinus,with the title of first knez and then voivoda,in first was leading person among the brothers,he is mentioned from 1431. He kept good relations with Ragusa.
 
(in 1435?... i wish i could speak serb, Is there someone who is dedicated enough to look this book up in the library? :D
Други син Којчин (Гојчин, Gоуcinus), са титулом најпре кнеза а потом војводе, у почетку је био главна личност међу браћом. Помиње се од 1431. Одржавао је добре односе са Дубровником.)

Perhaps @DanubianCossak would be willing to lend his expertise here as well?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
This is the Middle Ages we're talking about - borders were not so clearly demarcated that we can say whether or not a 50 foot wide space existed north of Vidin for the Serbs and Wallachians to meet up through. :p

According to Colin Imber in The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45, The Ottomans kept Vidin throughout. It was looted in 1444 but the Crusaders didn't take the citadel. About the surrounding region, I doubt there's any way to tell.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
This is the Middle Ages we're talking about - borders were not so clearly demarcated that we can say whether or not a 50 foot wide space existed north of Vidin for the Serbs and Wallachians to meet up through. :p

According to Colin Imber in The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45, The Ottomans kept Vidin throughout. It was looted in 1444 but the Crusaders didn't take the citadel. About the surrounding region, I doubt there's any way to tell.
I agree with you in most cases, but in this case we can find a punctual description of Serbia, which lies in June 1444 Edirne / July 1444 Szeged (Várad) peace deal. The Serbian extension of the deal was formally signed by Serbian despot George Brankovic on 15th August 1444, he returned from Hungary to Smederevo on 22th of August.
In that there are the 24 fortresses' names written down which the Ottomans gave the reforming Serbia.

If only I still had my University library registration... I'm sure that there's a description somewhere!
 
I agree with you in most cases, but in this case we can find a punctual description of Serbia, which lies in June 1444 Edirne / July 1444 Szeged (Várad) peace deal. The Serbian extension of the deal was formally signed by Serbian despot George Brankovic on 15th August 1444, he returned from Hungary to Smederevo on 22th of August.
In that there are the 24 fortresses' names written down which the Ottomans gave the reforming Serbia.

We're talking about 24 fortresses comprising the whole of Serbia, I doubt it would mention anything in the region we're interested in. The only place of note which could answer our question is Višesav, which was taken by the Ottomans in 1438, according to Wikipedia. Unfortunately John Fine doesn't mention the fate of this town in his The Late Medieval Balkans, and only lists a portion of the fortresses that were exchanged in the treaty of 1444. It's possible that it was returned in 1444.
 
Its already translated in a post above yours.

My bad.

This is the Middle Ages we're talking about - borders were not so clearly demarcated that we can say whether or not a 50 foot wide space existed north of Vidin for the Serbs and Wallachians to meet up through. :p

According to Colin Imber in The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45, The Ottomans kept Vidin throughout. It was looted in 1444 but the Crusaders didn't take the citadel. About the surrounding region, I doubt there's any way to tell.

In that case, I say it would be best to just leave it in the Ottoman's hands. Even if they controlled most of the surrounding countryside, without holding onto the Citadel their grip on it would have been tenuous at best - and given that the Despotate was officially a vassal of the Ottomans and that the latter's 1454 campaign went into central Serbia without major action or interference from the east, I think it would be safe to say that Vidin was still in Ottoman hands.
 
I found a 10 page long essay only about the peace deal I mentioned, next week I'm gonna check on that in the Library.

Did you know, that Wladyslaw actually didn't swore an oath, only Hunyadi made it, but when the sultan's envoys returned they was afraid to tell the truth to Murat :) Hunyadi were made free from the oath by Cardinal Cesarini, who before sworing on the Bible in the peace deal had all the crusaders swear, that they will never stop whatever happens...

By the way this oath prevented them from turning around when neither Brankovic nor Wallachia joined the crusade and they recieved words that in the confusion around the peace deal the Venetian fleet allowed anatolian forces to Europe.
 
Did you know, that Wladyslaw actually didn't swore an oath, only Hunyadi made it,

Not according to John Fine,

At times various scholars, particularly Poles, have denied that Vladislav actually agreed to the treaty; their motive seems to have been to make the Polish king look better by denying that he broke his oath when the crusaders shortly thereafter violated the agreement and resumed the war against the Ottomans. Most scholars, however, have found this scholarly attempt unconvincing and believe the evidence makes it clear that Vladislav did in fact ratify the treaty.
 
John Fine = John von Antwerp Fine?

I read a lot of Hungarian sources, but from von Anterwp I only read Late Medieval Balkans: a Critical survey... but I found that real superficial! Hungarian sources are a lot more detailed!

For example did you know what this peace meant? Why did they have to sign it, I mean why was this deal was so tempting (Both Wladyslaw and Hunyadi)? Because J.V.A. writes two sentences about that, that the Despot was very happy and then something about Wladyslaw's advisors and the Cardinal's excuse. But do you know what really happened in the background?