Alright... I guess it's just an agree to disagree thing if stuff like doomsday clone army eager one rule is an intended consequence, then.
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Yeah this is one of those cases where I look at something that I will never personally play, ask myself if someone else playing that would hurt me, and the overall result is that I just don't care as long as it doesn't break the games that I do want to play.
So that combo seems fine to me. Someone being allowed to play that won't hurt me.
Two is better than one, but with only two picks I can't play Overtuned Necrophage Aquatic Void Dwellers ("Can of Overtuna").
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5 categories is probably too many, I'd go with Location, Evolution, Society. Which would be more or less or your original suggestion but with homeworld and celestial origin merged.
There definitely is something to be said for just giving multiple picks while adding relevant exclusions to them all, exactly like civics work. Even a system where you split into categories is going to havce a laundry list of exclusions between them, for both mechncial and balance reasons, the only real upside compared to free picks is a cleaner UX.
There definitely is something to be said for just giving multiple picks while adding relevant exclusions to them all, exactly like civics work. Even a system where you split into categories is going to havce a laundry list of exclusions between them, for both mechncial and balance reasons, the only real upside compared to free picks is a cleaner UX.
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Interesting proposal. I am all for modular game design, but I think certain combinations would break the system, so exclusions ought to be in, pretty much like civics. Also, simplicity is key, I would try to make as few categories as possible so the system remains approachable for newcomers.
In addition to that, I am of the opinion that if at some point devs want to redesign the whole race trait system, many of the current origins could be "reduced" into its species traits instead (aquatic and subterranean come to mind), but that's probably more of a distant future thing (or wish).
In addition to that, I am of the opinion that if at some point devs want to redesign the whole race trait system, many of the current origins could be "reduced" into its species traits instead (aquatic and subterranean come to mind), but that's probably more of a distant future thing (or wish).
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Should this be done: NO. This is the ideal project for modders with too much time on their hands.
It is certainly something that could be done as part of large origin overhaul, but it is hard to imagine it being worth it from a development perspective compared to the advantage of being able to add new thematic origins in isolation with each DLC without having to worry about their impact on other origins.
It would mean extra work to balance and maintain workable every existing origin (or all those not in the same category in you example) when introducing a new origin and in terms of narrative it would lessen the impact of some of the origin stories.
Sometimes you just have to accept being a ninja or a pirate, because being a ninja-pirate is too much work for too little gain.
That said, let me second @Ikael - this is something that could be interesting in a complete overhaul of race creation: origin, racial traits, etc. But frankly, I don't see the need for it, though the powergamer in me does delight at the notion of breaking the game even harder than I already do due to the extreme power of some combinations.
Because, let's face it, Teachers of the Shroud + Under One Rule would be simply ridiculous, and that's just one combination that's very, very, powerful right out the gate. Then there are the generic power boosts such as Overtuned + any origin unlikely to lead to going synthetic.
It is certainly something that could be done as part of large origin overhaul, but it is hard to imagine it being worth it from a development perspective compared to the advantage of being able to add new thematic origins in isolation with each DLC without having to worry about their impact on other origins.
It would mean extra work to balance and maintain workable every existing origin (or all those not in the same category in you example) when introducing a new origin and in terms of narrative it would lessen the impact of some of the origin stories.
Sometimes you just have to accept being a ninja or a pirate, because being a ninja-pirate is too much work for too little gain.
That said, let me second @Ikael - this is something that could be interesting in a complete overhaul of race creation: origin, racial traits, etc. But frankly, I don't see the need for it, though the powergamer in me does delight at the notion of breaking the game even harder than I already do due to the extreme power of some combinations.
Because, let's face it, Teachers of the Shroud + Under One Rule would be simply ridiculous, and that's just one combination that's very, very, powerful right out the gate. Then there are the generic power boosts such as Overtuned + any origin unlikely to lead to going synthetic.
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But frankly, I don't see the need for it, though the powergamer in me does delight at the notion of breaking the game even harder than I already do due to the extreme power of some combinations.
Because, let's face it, Teachers of the Shroud + Under One Rule would be simply ridiculous, and that's just one combination that's very, very, powerful right out the gate. Then there are the generic power boosts such as Overtuned + any origin unlikely to lead to going synthetic.
Sure, but there's already a game difficulty slider. If you want to outclass the AI, you can easily make a game to do that.
If I ran one of the double-plus Origins, I'd probably turn up the difficulty a notch from my default.
In MP it's a different story, of course. There should be some way for MP hosts to constrain combos or disallow some Origins entirely.
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Not sure about that, but Origins are currently on a linear power scale. There's a few that are stronger, there's a few that are weaker. They then combine with Civics, which already creates quite a spread of potential power levels.
Having 5 options that you can combine in all kind of different ways on top of what we have will likely create multiplicative effects. The guy who chooses "all default" and the guy who builds a highly synergetic set of bonkers origins are almost certainly going to be on a MASSIVELY different trajectory from day 1. Do you really think the game will be balanced around "all standard" when pretty much every half-way synergetic build with vastly outscale the default?
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The last time I tuned in, the economic testing for the open beta asked for us to run Ensign difficulty.
I do not normally run Ensign difficulty. That means I do not play the game as "balanced" by the devs, and I suspect you also don't play on Ensign.
The guy who chooses a sub-optimal pre-generated species & civic & origin like we see in the default pre-gen list is already behind the people who design a species and empire with good Civic & Origin picks.
If you're designing your own empire already, and you're not playing on Ensign, then your games already weren't balanced nor standard.
So yeah, for my single-player games, I don't see much of a problem discarding a "balance" which doesn't currently exist.
MP is a different beast, and balance should be enforced by host restrictions in MP.
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So to be clear, if let's say empires currently operate on a power scale of 1-10, because it's already not balanced, there's absolutely no reason not to implement a change that makes it so empires are now on power scale of 1-500?
The numbers are probably exaggerated, but is that really what you're saying? It's already not fully balanced, so who cares about keeping things within reasonable bounds?
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That actually does sound reasonable, yes. If we're not going to rein things in so 25x crisis is unbeatable, and Grand Admiral is actually harder than Ensign (vassal mechanics result in that), balance IS out the window anyway. Although for that, my preferred solution is to fix those... particularly dramatically fewer lategame ships, because those produce lag too, they're annoying to manage, they're not compatible with the post-GP leader system, and having a bazillion fleets to whack when fighting the AI is just annoying.
I don't care about that here though, I want the themes of multiple origins to be possible simultaneously. Some combinations would be strong, but some origins are already strong. Doubling the number of origins you can pick has a game balance implication my settings can account for, and thematic implications I can otherwise only get via mods. "But you can use mods" isn't an answer for why not to add something to the game, unless it is independently a bad idea to add it to the game.
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I don't think there are current reasonable bounds, so I don't see any value in prohibiting weird things that might violate those non-existent bounds.
Do you remember the guy who abused the market mechanics to beat the 25x crisis in 2225? He did that in vanilla with no mods. There is no balance except what you as a player voluntarily impose on yourself. If beating the 25x crisis in 2225 is "the scale of 1-10" then I don't think there is any scale that goes to 500, because the current 10 is already absolutely bonkers.
Even without mods or market abuse, we can make the game easier or harder with map settings -- we can turn off all FEs so it's safer to go Synth + Cosmo, or we can turn them on to delay the crisis a bit. We can turn off all AIs from spawning for a perfectly clear map to paint without contest. We can make the game very, very easy if that's what we want.
It's not what I want in my games, but it's already possible.
With mods, I can make the game harder or easier (or both) -- or just more interesting, which is what I actually want mods to do.
There is no coherent game balance. The game is already "balanced" only in the loosest sense, and that balance is very easy to break if you try at all. I don't try to break the game, and I probably will NOT use 5x OP piecewise-origins to dominate Civilian difficulty. But if someone else wants to do that then it doesn't hurt me at all.
One game that I do want to try is Necrophage Void Dwellers + Barbaric Despoilers, to hoover up pops and then convert them to dead space pops, maybe with Overtuned thrown in for Cyborg Ascension.
tl;dr - Given the current documented mechanics abuse around beating the 25x crisis in 25 years via market abuse, I don't think origins are more than a drop in the bucket. So I reject your analogy about 1-10 vs 1-500, because 5 combo origins would be trivia compared to the mechanical abuse that's already possible.
I struggle to think of an origin combo that such a system would enable that would actually be meaningfully stronger than some of the things you can already do now with one origin and some very strong civics, like Arc welders + Driven Assimilator + Genesis Architects, precisely because you are basically stacking 3 origins already in such builds.
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I quite agree, which I left the power fantasies to the end as an aside about why I might like it even if I don't think it is a good idea for the reasons stated at the beginning of the post rather than using them as an argument against the idea itself.
I like it all!
I think the most conservative change that can be made to the system, for the most skeptical, is moving planetary origins to the Homerworld screen. I think it'd make a lot more sense than it currently is.
I think the most conservative change that can be made to the system, for the most skeptical, is moving planetary origins to the Homerworld screen. I think it'd make a lot more sense than it currently is.
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The proliferation of permanent, origin-like civics implies that the current origin system is getting overloaded. IIRC, a dev comment about Eager Explorers (or some other permanent, very origin-like civic) explained that it was made a civic rather than an origin because it was desirable that it would not block various origins. Or something like that. IIRC, it was perhaps also around that time that one developer entertained the idea of "society types" (not necessarily an exact quote) as a way of relieving the origin and civic systems of some of their content. But, lacking a link for it, I may misremember. Still, the proliferation of permanent, origin-like civics remains a clear sign that the origin system is (literally) overflowing.
I am open to other and/or more approaches, like the one suggested above in regards to species traits; rolling some origins into species traits certainly seems like a good option, especially if that would be part of making those traits work more consistently between different empires. For instance, most or all homeworld-related origins could be represented as traits that also modify the homeworld of the starting species; this was the case for several species traits in Master of Orion 2, and is technically already the case for the climate preference traits.
Alternatively, with no homeworld-origin-to-trait conversions, the entire homeworld origin column could just be moved to the homeworld selection screen; only Doomsday would need to be kept as an origin (presumably in the Post-FTL column).
Looking at the other origins:
So, in summary:
By moving homeworld origins into traits (or homeworld selection) and adding ascension-oriented species trait picks, the OP's columns for "Homeworld" and "Evolution" could largely be removed. The remaining origins could then be split between two columns, one for pre-FTL societal development and one for post-FTL relations (including Doomsday).
I am open to other and/or more approaches, like the one suggested above in regards to species traits; rolling some origins into species traits certainly seems like a good option, especially if that would be part of making those traits work more consistently between different empires. For instance, most or all homeworld-related origins could be represented as traits that also modify the homeworld of the starting species; this was the case for several species traits in Master of Orion 2, and is technically already the case for the climate preference traits.
- Post-Apocalyptic: the current design can be completely replaced by the Survivor / Radiation Shielding traits and turning the homeworld into a Tomb World.
- Life-Seeded: can be almost completely replaced by adding Gaia climate to the homeworld climate selection, the only things that would be missing are the world size and strategic resource deposits.
- Void Dwellers: this would be trickier, but could still be done - it could be represented as another homeworld "climate" choice, possibly rolling the Void Dweller trait effects into the climate preference trait. There would also need to be some switches for starting technologies and other effects of the origin. This extra effort seems reasonable, given the popularity of the Void Dwellers playstyle and the frequently recurring lamentations that it can't use any other origins.
- Subterranean: the Cave Dweller trait could remain as-is, while the presence of pops with the trait unlocks a planetary decision that gives the effects currently reserved for the origin. This would also finally end the weirdness that happens when subterranean colonies switch owners.
Alternatively, with no homeworld-origin-to-trait conversions, the entire homeworld origin column could just be moved to the homeworld selection screen; only Doomsday would need to be kept as an origin (presumably in the Post-FTL column).
Looking at the other origins:
- Necrophage: the trait could be reworked to function regardless of the society they live in.
- It always bothered me that voluntary necrovorism and necrophagophobia are not things in empires without the Necrophage origin; it is as if they cease to be necrophages if they are not ruled by an empire with the Necrophage origin.
- If a population turnover mechanic was introduced (to make the lifespan and xp gain traits matter for pops and not just leaders), the Necrophage trait could tap into that mechanic by growing its pops proportionally to the turnover of other pops (plus any purging and sacrifices taking place). Perhaps also declining if there is too little death around to feed on. They would literally be death-eaters.
- Calamitous Birth: could probably be reworked as a trait that switched the pops' colony ships to the other type, but the effect is still so minor that it could also just be made a feature of the lithoid shipset - which could simultaneously elevate the flavour of lithoids overall (especially if lithoid ships also get reimagined as "lithoid bioships").
- The preset ascension paths (including Clone Army) could have easily been simplified as traits, if only there was not so much content tied to them. I don't have the heart to argue that so much creative work and content should just be thrown out.
- However, something could be said for giving us the option to just pick Limited Cybernetic or Latent Psionic as starting traits, and perhaps also a similar genetic modification predisposition trait ("Epigenes"?), and a lighter version of Pathogenic Genes ("Weak Flesh", negative but unremovable trait?). These traits could simply just exist and, in main species, limit the ascension path picks. Basically, the traits would be "lite" versions of the more elaborate origins, and could then be combined with other origins to achieve the flavour we desire - or be used to lock custom-made AI empires into specific ascension paths (without needing to involve the rest of the origins' content).
- With such traits in place, the ascension-tied origins in the "Evolution" column in the OP could essentially be moved to the "Pre-FTL Society" column, as they would be amplifications of a species trait rather than a separate evolutionary origin (which would now be handled via traits instead).
- Innate Design: it could easily be reimagined as a species trait that prevents modification of that species, unless the trait is removed (while empires with such a main species would presumably not be able/willing to pick any ascension path). The presence of pops with the trait could also unlock (researching) the building currently associated with the civic.
- Storm Devotion: could be flipped so that having pops with the Storm Touched trait unlocks (researching) the buildings, and the Storm Dancer job could then also require the trait.
- Anglers: this civic is not a civic (virtue) per se, but rather about the practical exploitation of a species trait - which the civic currently requires of the main species, but not from species working the jobs added by the Angler civic. An alternative design could be that the presence of Aquatic pops on a wet world unlocks a planetary decision, zone, or other shenanigan that gives the current effects of the civic. And the jobs added should be limited to species with the Aquatic trait.
- Augmentation Bazaars: could be changed from a permanent civic, to being a civic that requires the presence of cybernetic pops (or that the main species is cybernetic). The civic could then be adopted after either picking the Cybernetic Creed origin, picking the Limited Cybernetic starting trait, or choosing cybernetic ascension.
So, in summary:
By moving homeworld origins into traits (or homeworld selection) and adding ascension-oriented species trait picks, the OP's columns for "Homeworld" and "Evolution" could largely be removed. The remaining origins could then be split between two columns, one for pre-FTL societal development and one for post-FTL relations (including Doomsday).
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Doomsday needs to be made a special case as it isn't really exclusive with the other homeworld origins. Any planet can blow up and any megastructure can be wiped out by supernova. And combining life-seeded with it could make for an extra difficult game.
Subterranean seems more like a evolution origin to me, considering it affects your species more than your homeworld.
Subterranean seems more like a evolution origin to me, considering it affects your species more than your homeworld.
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I previously put Doomsday and Subterranean in the "Homeworld origin" category because it contained several alternatives I figured were not desirable combination possibilities for either, such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers.
Going by what I wrote in post #37, now I would probably opt for
- Doomsday being in the "Post-FTL Relations" category, since 1) it already loses the guaranteed habitable worlds, just like some of the other options, and 2) several of the options in that category are either poor thematic fits for Doomsday or could interfere with it in very undesirable ways, especially the diplomatic relation options. The space infrastructure/fauna origins might be an exception, but also go against the spirit of Doomsday.
- While I earlier thought of Doomsday as best left exclusive to natural worlds, it should be relatively easy to make special versions for Void Dwellers and Shattered Ring. If the empire has a Habitat homeworld, the Arcane Replicator could be destabilizing until it goes boom (Habitat destroyed?). If the empire has a Ringworld homeworld, the disaster could instead be an impending collision with an interstellar planetoid dubbed "The Interloper".
- Subterranean being removed as an origin; instead, Cave Dwellers is added as a selectable species trait, along with a new planetary decision that is available when local pops have the Cave Dweller trait. That decision would make colonies turn subterranean, gaining the appearance and modifiers currently associated with the Subterranean origin. This effect would remain if the colony is conquered, but would also not be automatically in place for freshly conquered surface-dweller worlds. This decision could even be gated behind a later technology, available for empires with Cave Dweller pops, since the Cave Dweller trait is pretty good already. An alternative to making it a planetary decision could perhaps also be to instead make it a special Zone / Building for the Mining district in 4.0.