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Ukrop(Furrota)

Corporal
Apr 18, 2025
47
142
(Sensitive topic)

So,I just thought about it. There should be ways to fasten culture and religious assimilation by enacting more harsh treatment(Stellaris,hello) im thinking mostly about Cathar crusade(considered as a genocide by the guy who invented this term) and Armenian genocide(though this one is very modern example). Also,maybe third way- migration for hordes.

Obviously,this shouldn’t be a fast conversion card it should provide a lot of resistance and antagonism with all who you commit atrocities against(and neighbors),so a good reason not to do that with Cristians as the ottomans.
 
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I don't believe the Armenian genocide won a lot of converts. What they did was they abducted a bunch of orphans raising them as turkish muslims. I don't know how common a tactic this was. I do know similar tactics were used at Native American reservations, but I should note that while most Native-Americans are some form of Christian they retain their unique cultural identities.

I also don't think there should be a way to speed up cultural and religious assimilation for pure gameplay reasons. Because that'll just lead to everyone trying to convert these pops because it'll be mechanically simpler. It should only exist for historical religions. And historically cultures and religions have managed to be very durable. Judaism despite being a minority religion has survived these many millenia. The English tried to stamp out the Irish cultural identity, and yet it persists to this day.

This is why I despise the 'Cultural Unification' mechanic (though at least it's turned off by default now I believe) since I can't think of a single example of it being done in history. The Russians ATTEMPTING to do this is one of the reasons for the ongoing Russo-Ukraine War. Pretty much every attempt at forced cultural assimilation was more trouble than it's worth. About the only really 'successful' attempts was much more about settling people of your culture into a new region and producing more of your people than were there previously. Hence I think it makes sense to have players focus on this. An example would be in Ireland the formation of the Scots-Irish, where the English historically settled protestant Scottish lords in Ireland that would be more loyal to the crown- which is why Northern Ireland is protestant and remains a part of the UK. They didn't simply flip on a 'genocide toggle' to remove their problems with holding onto Ireland. And arguably every attempt to assimilate Ireland ended up furthering the cultural divide- despite both being english speaking christians.

I think one mechanic they could include though- I think religious tolerance edicts in the age of enlightenment could allow for cultural assimilation without conversion. An example would be how once constitutions guaranteeing religious liberty across europe came about (Courtesy of Napoleon) Jews for the first time could enter civic life as medieval segregation laws were shut down. Jews began identifying more as French or German than they did as 'Jews'- because being allowed to participate in the state gave them investment in it. So in this way, i could see under Revolutionary France the 'conversion' of Jews from Sephardic to French, while they maintain their Jewish religion.
 
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No, it shouldn't be possible - it's going to be the correct move every time regardless of the maluses you try to introduce. Antagonism is just a number, and rebellion is nothing but army tradition. Culture and religion should be pretty much impossible to ever change anywhere in the world, players should have to deal with it and work around it, not magic it away with "conversion" and "assimilation".
 
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No, it shouldn't be possible - it's going to be the correct move every time regardless of the maluses you try to introduce. Antagonism is just a number, and rebellion is nothing but army tradition. Culture and religion should be pretty much impossible to ever change anywhere in the world, players should have to deal with it and work around it, not magic it away with "conversion" and "assimilation".
I mean it should occur, just incredibly slowly. Like, four centuries in, and you've only made a dent. With the primary way of dealing with regions being settling your guys in that region in a colony.

Of course, we do have questions about how to deal with things like the Protestant Revolution. Certainly something like repealing the Edict of Nantes would make France more Catholic, but I don't know enough about the real world history there.
 
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(Sensitive topic)

So,I just thought about it. There should be ways to fasten culture and religious assimilation by enacting more harsh treatment(Stellaris,hello) im thinking mostly about Cathar crusade(considered as a genocide by the guy who invented this term) and Armenian genocide(though this one is very modern example). Also,maybe third way- migration for hordes.

i dont think we should mix mass killing, ethnic cleansing with "forced assimilation"... assimilation is what turks tried/tries doing to kurds while genocide is what they did to armenians. both could be argued as horrible, but they are not even in the same league.

if you want a "genocide" button, or in other means forced mass movements, starvation or whatever in the game, then sure, but shouldnt be conflated with assimilation mechanic...
 
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prosperity brings cultural assimilation and religious conversion.

and discrimination. if you feel you have more benefits to convert or speak a certain language, it will be easier to make the switch.

this is also generally why, in middle east, urban centers were mostly muslim (mainstream) while rural (and remote areas, far from central authority) stayed either christian or had some heterodoxical muslim sects.
 
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i dont think we should mix mass killing, ethnic cleansing with "forced assimilation"... assimilation is what turks tried/tries doing to kurds while genocide is what they did to armenians. both could be argued as horrible, but they are not even in the same league.

if you want a "genocide" button, or in other means forced mass movements, starvation or whatever in the game, then sure, but shouldnt be conflated with assimilation mechanic...
Please dont bring up modern politics. It is just going to open a can of worms and push the entire topic in directions that are not necessary and seen several times. The Ottomans most certainly did not try to assimilate kurds. I find the armenian genocide topic also borderline irrelevant to this game forum, but it is not the main point of OP.
 
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I don't believe the Armenian genocide won a lot of converts. What they did was they abducted a bunch of orphans raising them as turkish muslims. I don't know how common a tactic this was. I do know similar tactics were used at Native American reservations, but I should note that while most Native-Americans are some form of Christian they retain their unique cultural identities.
It wasnt common at all. The genocide is focused on early 20th century, where nationalism is a hyper-drug. I wouldnt call it relevant to the game in any form or shape. Especially considering that this happened during a world war and in a collapsing multi-ethnical, multi-religious, multi-cultural society. Something you wont seen often, if at all, within the game.
I also don't think there should be a way to speed up cultural and religious assimilation for pure gameplay reasons. Because that'll just lead to everyone trying to convert these pops because it'll be mechanically simpler. It should only exist for historical religions. And historically cultures and religions have managed to be very durable. Judaism despite being a minority religion has survived these many millenia. The English tried to stamp out the Irish cultural identity, and yet it persists to this day.

This is why I despise the 'Cultural Unification' mechanic (though at least it's turned off by default now I believe) since I can't think of a single example of it being done in history. The Russians ATTEMPTING to do this is one of the reasons for the ongoing Russo-Ukraine War. Pretty much every attempt at forced cultural assimilation was more trouble than it's worth. About the only really 'successful' attempts was much more about settling people of your culture into a new region and producing more of your people than were there previously. Hence I think it makes sense to have players focus on this. An example would be in Ireland the formation of the Scots-Irish, where the English historically settled protestant Scottish lords in Ireland that would be more loyal to the crown- which is why Northern Ireland is protestant and remains a part of the UK. They didn't simply flip on a 'genocide toggle' to remove their problems with holding onto Ireland. And arguably every attempt to assimilate Ireland ended up furthering the cultural divide- despite both being english speaking christians.

I think one mechanic they could include though- I think religious tolerance edicts in the age of enlightenment could allow for cultural assimilation without conversion. An example would be how once constitutions guaranteeing religious liberty across europe came about (Courtesy of Napoleon) Jews for the first time could enter civic life as medieval segregation laws were shut down. Jews began identifying more as French or German than they did as 'Jews'- because being allowed to participate in the state gave them investment in it. So in this way, i could see under Revolutionary France the 'conversion' of Jews from Sephardic to French, while they maintain their Jewish religion.
It was most definetly an oddity to purge the locals, but it wasnt unheared of. Some examples:

-purge of jews/muslims from iberia.

-purge of muslims from Sicily.

-Mongol genocides.

-Timur rampage (also apocalyptic levels of mass-murdering & crimes, often forgotten)

-purge of the Hugenots.


You also have cultural unification/"standardization":

-Germans becoming more alike. No kingdom identification, but rather an identification as "one people". [in our history this meant the spread of prussian culture within Germany]

-Same above with the Italians.

-Standardization of the french language and identity (e.g. occitan is pretty much gone, so is Breton).

-Japan assimilation.

-Han-chinese assimilation of various conquerors. E.g. Qing, Yuan.


Spreading your culture is most certainly historically accurate in multie regions of the world. In particular the far-east and Europe. Specifically purging a group of people along religious lines is also historically accurate but far less common. I dont think we need the latter. The former can be discussed, but should come with a downside.

In EU4 you can accept a culture or convert it, which cost a shit ton of bird mana. So the downside is less tall gameplay.

As a side-note: A degree of assimilation was always the case. People wanting to climb up politically also assimilated (usually). Social mobility/Meritocricy can (as an example) be used for faster assimilation.
 
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Please dont bring up modern politics. It is just going to open a can of worms and push the entire topic in directions that are not necessary and seen several times. The Ottomans most certainly did not try to assimilate kurds. I find the armenian genocide topic also borderline irrelevant to this game forum, but it is not the main point of OP.

i agree that they didnt. im talking about the modern turkish republic, the comparison is with armenian genocide - as OP tried to make like genocide is assimilation++

but agreed, no need to get into that. main point is that mass killing and ethnic cleansing should not be part of assimilation mechanic, makes no sense
 
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and discrimination. if you feel you have more benefits to convert or speak a certain language, it will be easier to make the switch.

this is also generally why, in middle east, urban centers were mostly muslim (mainstream) while rural (and remote areas, far from central authority) stayed either christian or had some heterodoxical muslim sects.
I don't think this is correct for Ottoman Empire, in lots of eyalets with majority muslums in city centers non-muslims outnumbered muslims or had a sizeable minority even if they didn't have much presence in rural areas.
 
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As always this discussion divolves into a dichotomy between "I should be able to leverage the state to 100% culture convert a region within a century" and "the state should have no impact on culture conversion ever and the standard case example of how fast culture conversion should be are cultures that survived to this day throughout the game's time period"

I dont think this distinction makes any sense, both opinions are essentially false or exaggerated. The state should be able to have an impact but this impact shouldn't result in ultrarapid and drastic change if the initial situation is not favorable.
Also obviously invoking the same tired examples of culture that survived to this day is blatant survivorship bias.
 
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I don't think this is correct for Ottoman Empire, in lots of eyalets with majority muslums in city centers non-muslims outnumbered muslims or had a sizeable minority even if they didn't have much presence in rural areas.
Christians were the minority in each and every villayet by the 19th century. Maybe this wasnt the case in the let's say 15th century, but we lack accurate data for that.
 
It wasnt common at all. The genocide is focused on early 20th century, where nationalism is a hyper-drug. I wouldnt call it relevant to the game in any form or shape. Especially considering that this happened during a world war and in a collapsing multi-ethnical, multi-religious, multi-cultural society. Something you wont seen often, if at all, within the game.

It was most definetly an oddity to purge the locals, but it wasnt unheared of. Some examples:

-purge of jews/muslims from iberia.

-purge of muslims from Sicily.

-Mongol genocides.

-Timur rampage (also apocalyptic levels of mass-murdering & crimes, often forgotten)

-purge of the Hugenots.


You also have cultural unification/"standardization":

-Germans becoming more alike. No kingdom identification, but rather an identification as "one people". [in our history this meant the spread of prussian culture within Germany]

-Same above with the Italians.

-Standardization of the french language and identity (e.g. occitan is pretty much gone, so is Breton).

-Japan assimilation.

-Han-chinese assimilation of various conquerors. E.g. Qing, Yuan.


Spreading your culture is most certainly historically accurate in multie regions of the world. In particular the far-east and Europe. Specifically purging a group of people along religious lines is also historically accurate but far less common. I dont think we need the latter. The former can be discussed, but should come with a downside.

In EU4 you can accept a culture or convert it, which cost a shit ton of bird mana. So the downside is less tall gameplay.

As a side-note: A degree of assimilation was always the case. People wanting to climb up politically also assimilated (usually). Social mobility/Meritocricy can (as an example) be used for faster assimilation.
If by purge you mean expulsion then there were many more. But both moriscos and jews were expelled from Iberia, not purged. I specify this because all your other examples are mass killings and the Iberia one feels odd there. Although sometimes the Iberian kings did sell a part of the population of conquered muslims into slavery, like with the capture of Cordoba, but they weren't massacred. But the main events in the game's timeframe were of course the expulsion of the jews and later the expulsion of the moriscos.
 
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I don't think this is correct for Ottoman Empire, in lots of eyalets with majority muslums in city centers non-muslims outnumbered muslims or had a sizeable minority even if they didn't have much presence in rural areas.

you are talking about a specific state in a specific time. im talking about in general (and something applicable a game mechanic). there is (or will be) specific flavour for the ottoman state, and i hope it will show its development throughout time (as ottoman 1337 and 1820 are very different in in how they functioned).

but in general, it was easier to convert people in urbanised areas (or close to state power), and also less "diversions" from mainstream islam. this is why heterodoxical islamic sects were able to exist either in remote areas or in areas where they had autonomy/self-rule - examples are nusayris (alawites), yezidis, shabak, yarsanis (ahl-e-haqq) and numerous others in levant and mesopotamia.
 
you are talking about a specific state in a specific time. im talking about in general (and something applicable a game mechanic). there is (or will be) specific flavour for the ottoman state, and i hope it will show its development throughout time (as ottoman 1337 and 1820 are very different in in how they functioned).

but in general, it was easier to convert people in urbanised areas (or close to state power), and also less "diversions" from mainstream islam. this is why heterodoxical islamic sects were able to exist either in remote areas or in areas where they had autonomy/self-rule - examples are nusayris (alawites), yezidis, shabak, yarsanis (ahl-e-haqq) and numerous others in levant and mesopotamia.
I said Ottoman Empire because you were talking about middle east but you might be correct about other states
 
As always this discussion divolves into a dichotomy between "I should be able to leverage the state to 100% culture convert a region within a century" and "the state should have no impact on culture conversion ever and the standard case example of how fast culture conversion should be are cultures that survived to this day throughout the game's time period"

I dont think this distinction makes any sense, both opinions are essentially false or exaggerated. The state should be able to have an impact but this impact shouldn't result in ultrarapid and drastic change if the initial situation is not favorable.
Also obviously invoking the same tired examples of culture that survived to this day is blatant survivorship bias.
I wish I could agree with this more than once. It just summarises the entire situation perfectly.
 
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