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Srivijiya/Indonesia

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Ahmed writes:


Wellin my Champa scenario there was Mallaca as importants and with minor
importance Brunei, Atjeh and Mataram. (Makassar not important)
Emptiness there and possibilities to colonise (Champa would be coloniser there
too) was explained that at 14C there was very long and exausting war (and
plagues that followed) in which everybody against everybody. So only stronger
nations left - Atjeh, Mallaca and Brunei has better conncetions with other
world so they could survive easer. From Mataram empire left only some Java
provinces. All other small states depopulated, people left cities and towns to
rural areas, economy was destroyed, etc..

And say that Champa was not done becouse of some extremely minor importance of
Bengal and Delhi sultunate, but becouse that region was too underdeveloped that
Champa could be like out of place all events in region would be only as
interaction with Champa.
But Champa is still aplieable with some editions...

But I would like that some Fiji country (I proposed Ternete if You remember)
would fill Australia and New Zealand, cons nobody else will do it...

He als suggests Tonga


Please note that I won't be personally working on any of this material. Those of you who want to see it in the mod will need to get it all done and submit the ready-to-run files. Thanks, and good luck!
 
I liked your stuff from Champa very much, Ahmad. That was where I got the idea to make that one map.

The thing about Fiji and Tongu is that I don't think they are in vanilla. For the entirety of Indonesia and the pacific islands I can't get the setup from Mymap out of my head (which in the past month, when I have played EU2, it was on Mymap), so I'm not sure.

Anyways, it would certainly help out a lot were there some remnant of the Srivijaya empire, some splinter version which stabilized at the same time as Malacca and Atjeh remaining in Java and Sulawesi racing Malacca and Atjeh and Brunei for the islands we do have in Vanilla, including to Australia. We don't (well, I don't) want a lot of uncolonized space in Indonesia because nobody ever gets around to it. At least I have never seen anybody try.
 
I wouldn't mind writing a few events, but I don't think I can handle all the tags, i also need to know exactly whats going on, is it in fiji, new zealand, indonesia or what, what's it religion (or future possibilities). With regards to tags (at least event tags) they can be added later, if orimazd would like I'd be happy to cooperate with him on this, he could write one part I the other and we can review each other, if I work alone I might go off the point or write something unbalanced...
 
i'm willing to do stuff here if I just get the okay on waht we're doing exactly, I just finished exams so I'm available for a while, alternatively I could do events for korea if this idea falls through (how about a string where they absorb japan and/or manchuria?) any ideas guys?
 
Don_Quigleone said:
i'm willing to do stuff here if I just get the okay on waht we're doing exactly, I just finished exams so I'm available for a while, alternatively I could do events for korea if this idea falls through (how about a string where they absorb japan and/or manchuria?) any ideas guys?
Click to expand...

I had an idea that Japan could start fractured and subject to considerable Korean influence. This could evolve in two obvious ways: one is that a Japanese faction could succeed in reuniting Japan and kicking out the Koreans. But which faction would be important as to Japan's future priorities and even its religion (Buddhism? Ancient Shintoism (Pagan)? Shinbutsu Shugo (Confucianism probably)?). The other is that Korea could strengthen its position in Japan and take over completely, though again the takeover could happen in various ways.
 
As I see it at the outset japan looks to be in a weakish condition, and while there should be a possibility for japan to be stronger, I think it would be best to go at one nation at a time, korea already has some events coded for it after all... still if you want to do it go for it (with the gods permission of course :p )
 
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Hmm well before we get down to event writing we have to solidify the political situation in the area, one thing we could do is have a string for reunification of the srivijya empire, another one could be colonisation of west africa, maybe something involving zanzibar? Also we could do something with regards to religion as well, maybe a choice at some point between hindu, buddhist, sunni and (not sure here might be too "out there") mutazelite with corresponding consequences. Also if our nation goes colonial it should probably be brought into conflict with the koreans (Mattyg indicated they would be colonial so...) lastly here are the event tags we can use


636xxx
637xxx
638xxx
639xxx

I presume we can have each correspond to one nation, so that's 4 nations/paths we can use, any ideas of your own, whats feasible and what's not, and should the srivijya empire start off fragmented or not.
 
Nix the East Africa, I don't think sea currents in the game period are feasible for that kind of thing anymore. I suggest Australia and/or the Pacific islands leading into California. So here's a tree.



Cyanide & Happiness @ Explosm.net
 
Funny, You sure they wouldn't be able to reach east africa? I mean we do know that they sailed there (there are documented crossings to madagascar and zanzibar I believe), and maybe if they say tried to make a trading post of some sort in sri lanka it could be even more feasible, but this is a relativley minor point, the starting political situation should be examined first, I think it would probably be best if Srivijiya started just having split up, and later it can be reestablished by any of the fragments (we could have certain events triggered by holding provinces like with kalmar).

I say on a temporary basis we start with Mallucca(we can always move to someone else) I say they start with a large part of the malay peninsula, there should probably be an event string involving indonesian politics (instead of making it uniquely mallucca we could have it be tied to owning mallucca and being a certain country [like the kalmar events] so if any of these nations hold the constituent parts they get the events for those parts).

Another nation we could also have is one in a position around borneo and/or sulawesi, it could be more involved with philipines and maybe more northerly exploration (chinese/korean politics?)

We could also have another constituent part around java and/or sumatra maybe involving more of pacific or polynesia, how does all this all sound?

EDIT: Actually having reviewed the extent of the srivijiya empire it could be feasible that they stick around, with most if not all their historical territories, they only controlled Java, Sumatra, the Malay peninsula and the coast of Brunei, that's about 12 or so territories (this is from memory) so they wouldn't be too over powered, on the other hand we could abberate it and have Srivijiya become much larger (maybe around 1000s or earlier even) and then split into around three powerful successor states as per above

P.S. Maybe this thread should move, New Idea sounds kind of ambiguous to outsiders, after some initial planning we should move to a new thread
 
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I'll retitle the thread for you. Let me know what you'd like to call it.

MattyG
 
Cool, how about Srivijiya/Indonesia events, although it might still be a better idea to just move to another thread entirely as the first few posts have almost entirely nothing to with whats neing done presently so people might get confused, I'll edit in a note though,
 
Off the top of my head Srivijaya consisted of about sixteen EU2 provinces, though of course not the entirety of them (however, being cities, they shouldn't necessarily have low BTV).

If you have the entirety of Srivijaya stick around in its largest size, it would make it a lot more boring in that region. This is why I suggest that it split up into Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim constituents. Of course, you agreed with that. You gave good ideas for colonization. However, the Philippines were not in real life just territory that could be "grabbed" like in Australia (presumably the Aborigines weren't much of a threat to the British); it wasn't that easy for Spain in the Philippines and it shouldn't be any easier for an indonesian semi-minor. Think Magindanao in AGCEEP and Mymap. Will write more later I guess.
 
It's probably best if we split up Srivijiya, however I say we make the territory it controlled in the past bigger by having them have previously conquer all of present day indonesia (except new guinea) and possibly even the phillipines and then split it up from there, We should possibly give the player a chance to reunify in the mid 1500s, along with possible expansion into indochina, good questions are: how would culture be handled (how many distinct cultures exist in the region? malay, indonesian...) and also how would religion be handled as having it to split up would hurt reunification efforts (of course this really ties in with culture) I think the political divisions I elaborated on above are a good starting point,

With regard to religion I think mallucca should go muslim with a chance to go buddhist, Borneo should be muslim, Java/ sumatra might be best to go hindu/muslim, I think confucian we can say is right out though for all of them, should christianity have any sort of effect? Probably not.

Techgrouping are another thing to consider, should they start as muslim, exotic, chinese etc. I'm not sure but they should get a chance to at least boost themselves up to muslim (maybe even torthodox) at some point in the game

Another good question is how they respond to the mutazelite heresy, them being on the fringes of the muslim world they might embrace it, or of course they might never even hear of it.

So as I can see we have the following strings we can do for starters:

Religion strings
Techgroup strings
Ressurection of Srivijiya Empire
Expansion into Indochina
Exploration
Competition with Korea over colonisation (probably leave this till later)
Expansion into the rest of east indies(possibly tying into Srivijiya sequence)
Response to europeans (around 1600s)

with regards to Indochina a choice could be given to mallucca over whether to pursue indochina supremacy or east indies supremacy (land versus sea?) in a similiar fashion to brittany. other nations could be given a watered down version where they don't get culture benefits
 
1. I support their having Chinese tech group with possibility to move up upon serious diplomatic encounter with the europeans. At least, that's cool for whoever turns out dominant.

2. Indochina should be out. I like using Ahmad's Champa stuff, which would give the Srivijaya successor a serious rival which would prevent their expansion northward.

3. I agree with your religion groupings, malacca buddhist borneo muslim sumatra muslim java hindu sulawesi hindu. I don't know how Islam spread to the area really, though.

Culturally, I think we should treat Indonesia similarly to West Africa, except with more cultures than say Indonesian and Malaysian. I'd have to look into this better though.

With Islam the spread of Mu'tazelism shouldn't be too hard, considering the Hajj. I mean, Mu'tazelites still go on the Hajj in our game, right? The spread of Mu'tazelite material should be easy. I don't know how prevalent the Hajj was for Indonesians, though--at least the very rich would have been able to do it, I would think. Someone with a better grasp of the region's history should comment.
 
Good then, it might be good though if Mallucca had a chance to spread up western malaysia with Champa( or whoever) taking indochina proper, China techgroup seems a good idea at the start, maybe they should move to muslim upon either a) the mutazelite heresy or b) relations with Abbasids or others in middle east

With regard to mutazelitism it might be easier than we expect as islam in the first place got there. If Islam could get so far from it's heartlands than it's not so unexpected for mutazelitism getting that far, of course the only problem would be that the chief scholars would be from cordoba and north africa where as for conventional sunnism they'd be from the middle east, which is considerably different with regards to distances, of course we have to take into account the hajj alright...

Me, i'd support Islam being the primary religion of the area, mostly due to it having better bonuses then hinduism and buddhism, although it's a bit hard for the player to have to cope with all these religion problems, that said royal marriage and diploannex are allowed between all these religions so it might be easier, however we resolve religion it's best to give the player an easyish way of getting around religious problems.

Another take is to have none of them start off as muslim but instead have islam spread there in maybe the 1450's causing perhaps various of our nations to convert, similiar to what happened historically, In fact what if the coming of Islam was what caused the Srivijiya empire to fall apart as the rulers tried to stamp it out but various nobles rise up, although a good question is how islam got there in the first place, as islam forbids active missionary work (I think)

Edit: It seems Islam appeared in indonesia between 1200 and 1600, so it;s entirely possible for it to split up the srivijiya empire, and we can probably move the 1600 back to 1500 as there's a strong abbasid caliphate, however before I say anymore I'm reading more I reccomend you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_coming_of_Islam_to_Indonesia_(1200_to_1600)

Edit 2: after eading a bit here's my idea, at game start: Sumatra and maybe western java(as sumatra is kinda small, only 4 provinces) is muslim, the rest is hindu or buddhist with the northwest being buddhist and the southeast hindu, confucianism could come into it, but it would probably be too hard on the ai to put another religion in, also at game start I say the cot in mallucca be changed to the historic capital of srivijiya on sumatra(palembang).

My idea is that shortly (as in 50 or so years) before game start islam arrives in indonesia carried by muslim traders, it starts in the historic capital(and cot) of srivijiya and spreads out to encompass Sumatra and maybe Western java (to make it easier in the muslims as Sumatra is only 4 provs). This causes a massive revolt with more conservative nations seceding with buddhists in mallacca and part of borneo, and hindus ecompassing the other islands and the rest of borneo not taken by buddhists, The Srivijiya empire renames itself to be something like the eastern sultanate (or srivijiya sultanate?).

So we have a three way battle between muslim sultanate, buddhist mallaca and hindu yet to be named nation (makkassar?) anyway we could simulate the rather random fashion that Islam spread throughout indonesia using extra random events to make it more likely that provinces convert, if Mutazeliteism does appear I say all the Muslim provinces convert near automatically as they'd probably be quite forward looking due to the nature of the conversion, we could maybe put in a system of events earlier on which designates the sultanate as either conservative and thus sunni or innovative and thus likely to go mutazelite later, the two nonmuslims should fight to create a srivijiya in their own image, while the sultanate tries to pick up the pieces and "enlighten" the world towards the glory of islam.

Edit 3(!): after having another look at the map I think it might be best for Sumatra and Java to go to the Sultanate, Borneo and malay peninsula go to Mallacca, and the rest goes to Makkassar (maybe they should be given 1 territory in borneo and java), i also have the beginings of a string of events with regards to the Sultanate and their spreading of Islam (and response to mutazelites)

Edit 4: so is this a good setup? I'd like some feedback before i proceed further down this line, lest it be unblanced or something
 
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Resurrecting the thread

So, since I'm working on China I just perused this thread. I was thinking that Song China, either as independent southern Song or as unified China, would focus its colonization on Indonesia/Australia/etc., and there's a string that allows it to go Buddhist as well. This would make four competitors in Indonesia, or just three b/c a Buddhist Song would be aligned with Dai Viet and the rest of the Theravadan SE Asia.

The Phillipines would more likely be the target of Confucian Wei; this would certainly be interesting as a competition w/ the other Indonesian players, forcing Wei to look further and further afield (i.e., North America) for influence.

Anyway, are the ideas in this thread still being worked, or is it dead?
 
It seems to have gone dead, I put up my ideas but noone gave me feedback, at the moment I haven't got much time as my state exams are comin up, however I would be willing to do work after those (they're in a month) as it is I'm willing to bits and pieces as well as feedback, however no one objected so I presume it could go ahead, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to tie this into your plans with china
 
I think an Indonesian power (power in the sense in which any nation in Interregnum is a power) would be a great idea; two would be even better. It was just part of my desire to make the separate Chinese dynasties particularly different from each other that I've been thinking about which directions they would look in to grow. Song, in particular, is looking south at Indochina, and probably be pushing Buddhism or Confucianism (depending on event choices) into the region. Wei would be looking to colonize anywhere it can, and not as interested in religious conversion (i.e. more innovative, no missionaries).

Beyond that, I dunno. I still haven't seen what's going on in Champa, which would make a big difference here.
 
Don_Quigleone said:
It seems to have gone dead, I put up my ideas but noone gave me feedback, at the moment I haven't got much time as my state exams are comin up, however I would be willing to do work after those (they're in a month) as it is I'm willing to bits and pieces as well as feedback, however no one objected so I presume it could go ahead, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to tie this into your plans with china
Click to expand...

You don't always need feedback. If I waited for feedback on the ideas I have and the material I prepare, then we would still be back in beta 1.0

Seriously, the basic ideas here are fine. What we really want to see is material. Send me the set-up changes, monarch and leader lists and start writing events. Not to be rude, but anything else is just naval-gazing bollocks. :eek:
 
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